Yelmalio and sidearms

[icebrand]

So, what's the sidearm for yelmalio cultists?

Real life macedonians (who also used sarissa and shield) used the xiphos, a shortsword. Do yelmalians also use those?

[Richard S.]

Axes, swords, whatever's on hand probably. I doubt there's a ton of uniformity in what secondary weapon they use, even within the same temple, since even as a source of professional mercenaries they're not full-time soldiers.

[JRE]

The Yelmalions are not Macedonians, and they do not like swords in general. So the side arm will be a cultural weapon that has a high value, and vary from one country to another. So a dagger or a kopis in Lunar Tarsh (and there are Yelmalions there) or shortsword for an Impala Rider and a battle axe or a rapier for an Esrolian. Unless the geas make one unusable.

As the 3rd weapon in the heavy infantry occupation I would take Bow (which is after all a cult weapon) or javelin. I allow the Templars to get a 1H Long Spear out of a broken sarissa. Another reason to have two spikes in the sarissa. 

My yelmalion adventurers learn 2H Spear, but often use Long spear and javelins when on their own.

[David Scott]

Going back to the seminal Sun County. The Yelmalions with have different arrangements depending on their required actions:

• Full Plate - 1H spear & hoplite shield plus plate armour - guard duty or local defence
• Campaign Gear - 1H spear, hoplite shield, Javelin (2)& Self bow plus Cuirboilli & soft leather limbs & helm, scale hauberk - standard kit for local police actions and remote campaigning.
• Pike and shield - as Full plate, but with 2H Pike & hoplite shield plus plate armour - Mercenary units.

None have a dagger listed, but I'd assume that was the case.

So I would imagine Sun County cultural weapons to be 1H spear, 2H pike, large shield, Bow, javelin. 

Impala riders have bow, shortsword, Dart & small shield and dagger per RQG.

[Eff]

21 hours ago, icebrand said:

So, what's the sidearm for yelmalio cultists?

Real life macedonians (who also used sarissa and shield) used the xiphos, a shortsword. Do yelmalians also use those?

I think we can probably assume something short, with two sharp sides, and a pointy tip, just out of sheer practicality. And there's some overlap in antiquity between a larger dagger and a shorter sword- Greek sources from around the Peloponnesian War suggest Spartan xiphe were about 12 inches in blade length, Roman legionary daggers (pugioi) were about 12-14 inches in blade length. But beyond that, it becomes a fairly technical question about use and intent and development history and so on and so forth. 

[JRE]

I am not sure practicality and Yelmalions will be in the same page. It is possible they take one edged daggers to minimize the similitude with the Death rune. Or even special shapes, such as a koummya.

Extrapolating from other pikemen, the sidearm does not need to be a really short weapon, as many have carried from broadswords (the landsknecht sword) to rapier size.

Just to be perversely different. I particularly like the Luristan bronze battleaxes, though there are also Skythian axes of similar shapes. They were intended for horseman use, as can be seen from the head angle, but I am sure they can be quite good for armor piercing. It could be their type of weapon, as a homage to the earth and also a remnant from the time when Yelmalions were horse archers or charioteers, stubbornly kept now that they are heavy infantry. At least for Yelmalions of old Sun Dome Temples.

Sartarites coming from orlanthi clans will have kept their broadswords, at least for the first generations. 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by JRE

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Impala riders have bow, shortsword, Dart & small shield and dagger per RQG.

why don't they use the composite? I always think of them as being more "Eurasian mounted" than "irregular dude hucked onto a mount"

Edited May 23, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[svensson]

23 hours ago, icebrand said:

So, what's the sidearm for yelmalio cultists?

Real life macedonians (who also used sarissa and shield) used the xiphos, a shortsword. Do yelmalians also use those?

Yes.

Unless their Geas forbids it, the xiphos is the most appropriate weapon to use in a phalanx. It doesn't get in the way like a hatchet or mace does, and it's suited to the 'stab first' training.

However, it should be understood that the sarissa is double-pointed in the expectation that the main spearhead will be chopped off at some point in the engagement. The butt-spike can be used as a 'reserve spearhead' if the falangist has enough room in the press to flip it around. Obviously, the butt-spike will do less damage than the main spearhead, but it's still an option. Oftentimes, however, is just easier to drop the broken spear shaft, duck behind your shield and draw your shortsword.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, svensson said:

falangist

unclear if English is your first language, as always, but that does not mean "member of a phalanx" in English, it means "antisemitic Catholic fascist", just as "fascist" is not a person who wields fasces

Edited May 23, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

unclear if English is your first language, as always, but that does not mean "member of a phalanx" in English, it means "antisemitic Catholic fascist", just as "fascist" is not a person who wields fasces

Yelmalions are antisystem chaotic falx wielders?????!?! 😂😂😂🥳

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, icebrand said:

Yelmalions are antisystem chaotic falx wielders?????!?! 😂😂😂🥳

ok but not antisemitic (because there are no Jews, I personally feel like they would be if Jews existed in Glorantha)

[Eff]

46 minutes ago, JRE said:

I am not sure practicality and Yelmalions will be in the same page. It is possible they take one edged daggers to minimize the similitude with the Death rune. Or even special shapes, such as a koummya.

Well, they do have certain minimal functionality requirements! Slashing cuts are a bit difficult to use with a big shield formation where each person is partially covering the right side of the person on their left- you just have limited room to maneuver. And if the shield formation is broken, your unit is collapsing, not fighting back.  Something that can poke as its primary method of use is pretty handy, and you can make a more triangular blade and say it's a really stretchy Law Rune if you want to introduce meaningful symbolic overtones. 

[icebrand]

Just now, Eff said:

 Something that can poke as its primary method of use is pretty handy, and you can make a more triangular blade and say it's a really stretchy Law Rune if you want to introduce meaningful symbolic overtones. 

Rapier it is!

 

[svensson]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

ok but not antisemitic (because there are no Jews, I personally feel like they would be if Jews existed in Glorantha)

 

6 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

unclear if English is your first language, as always, but that does not mean "member of a phalanx" in English, it means "antisemitic Catholic fascist", just as "fascist" is not a person who wields fasces

As for Jews in Glorantha, there's a lot of people who feel that they are divinely chosen by their deities. There's also a lot of mystical traditions that strongly revolve around the family unit. I never met Greg myself, but I still see some Talmudic and Qabbalistic touches in several peoples in Glorantha.

As for Falangist, I've seen the word used for Lebanese Christian militiamen allied with Israel so I didn't associate it with anti-Semitism, just religion-based nationalistic fascism. And if you need another description of Yelmalionism, 'religious based nationalistic fascism' isn't a bad place to start...

[svensson]

3 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Rapier it is!

 

Rapiers are too long and require an entirely different set of footwork to be used in a shield press.

Xiphos ['xiphoi'?] are first and foremost a stabbing shortsword. Unlike the Roman gladius training that strikes for the belly, the xiphos is aimed at the inner thigh and under the pteruges skirting of hoplites. LOTS of fat juicy arteries in those areas.

It should also be noted that phalanxes were trained to strike for throat and the neck-shoulder joint. Eye strikes were considered particularly adept. A good alternative target was the armpit, a tempting target when someone gets pushed off his footing and his right side is exposed. An armpit is a guaranteed disabler and damned near a sure kill. There nothing behind that hairy skin but lungs and arteries.

[David Scott]

32 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

why don't they use the composite? I always think of them as being more "Eurasian mounted" than "irregular dude hucked onto a mount"

They use the Composite Bow. All bows are composite, except for Esrolians, Fishers & Light infantry who use self bows.

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Going back to the seminal Sun County. The Yelmalions with have different arrangements depending on their required actions:

• Full Plate - 1H spear & hoplite shield plus plate armour - guard duty or local defence
• Campaign Gear - 1H spear, hoplite shield, Javelin (2)& Self bow plus Cuirboilli & soft leather limbs & helm, scale hauberk - standard kit for local police actions and remote campaigning.
• Pike and shield - as Full plate, but with 2H Pike & hoplite shield plus plate armour - Mercenary units.

None have a dagger listed, but I'd assume that was the case.

So I would imagine Sun County cultural weapons to be 1H spear, 2H pike, large shield, Bow, javelin. 

Impala riders have bow, shortsword, Dart & small shield and dagger per RQG.

Are we talking Sun County in Prax? 

The point is that Yelmalio's weapons are the spear and pike, large shield, and the bow or javelin. His followers might be familiar with other weapons, but he doesn't particularly mind or care.

[David Scott]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Are we talking Sun County in Prax? 

Yup

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The point is that Yelmalio's weapons are the spear and pike, large shield, and the bow or javelin. His followers might be familiar with other weapons, but he doesn't particularly mind or care.

As quoted above.

[JRE]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

21 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Are we talking Sun County in Prax? 

Yup

Not really. We were talking about Yelmalions in general, and my point is that the sidearm will change in different regions, and can be a way to differentiate different Sun Domes with that region cultural weapons. 

We have no real experience of how a phalanx breaks formation, but I would expect that in most cases the main thing is to keep the formation straight and shields aligned. The loss of one or several spear points will not affect the battle effect, and if an enemy reaches Pugio range, either they are extremely tough (5-10 pike strikes) or there are no pikes left. As Svensson says, the first choice would be to recover half a Sarissa, and use it as a spear, which is perfectly compatible, if shorter, with the formation.

In pikes vs pikes we have reports from the Renaissance (similar but without shields) and people without pikes would use thrusting attacks with swords. The lack of shield is a big difference, but bronze age rapiers are shorter than steel ones from the Renaissance. You are not fighting a duel, you just use a weapon that does not require you to leave the formation. So practically any one handed thrusting weapon could be useful. 

I already said axes were a perversion, though axes have been used in shieldwalls and close order shielded infantry for centuries. You are limited to overhead chops while the formation is firm, but they open options for attacking the opposing pikes as well as any enemy close. And are useful also as tools outside battle, which is better than a sword.

I still think that in most battles sidearms will only enter in play when one or both sides break formation, and then what matters is that it fits with your kit and you know how to use it. 

It is not very applicable to Yelmalions as we know them, but something happened to the Templars that made them abandon the traditional hoplite longspear for something much longer, and decrease the effect of their archery and horse archers. Was it to fight draconic creatures? Fighting beaked dragonewts? Mounted beaked dragonews, whose charge may require a dozen spearpoints to break? Or as a response to the long kontos of the Carmanian hazars? Or just a refinement to make sure they beat normal hoplites, as the Macedonians did? It is strange that such a change was made by conservative Yelmalions unless there was a hero involved.

Just some speculation on different pikemen models that the Macedonian / Diadochi model. 

 

[icebrand]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Are we talking Sun County in Prax? 

Yes, sun county in prax!!!

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The point is that Yelmalio's weapons are the spear and pike, large shield, and the bow or javelin. His followers might be familiar with other weapons, but he doesn't particularly mind or care.

So, yelmalios have kuschile archers (what armor do these usually use?) and sarissa+large shield hoplites with greaves, full helm and maybe cuirass if they can afford, am i correct?

Where is the spear used? And the Javelins? Do they have light infantry or skirmishers? What armor do they usually wear? Or are they for adventurers?

Last, the sidearm question... I imagine when the pike breaks a half can be used as long spear? Is this an acceptable ruling? Maybe this is the secondary weapon and they dont have to rely on a shortsword or dagger they get no training into?

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Where is the spear used?

when you are not in an organized phalanx and the ground force your "team" to cover too many angles to be able to use a shield wall

 

 

[JRE]

As David Cake said, the Pikes are useful only for open battle. For guard duty, patrols and just marching they will carry 1H Spears and javelins, as they are more flexible tactically or in small groups. The skirmishers are often ignored, but I expect they also have specialist archers and plenty of young men with javelins to protect the flanks and harass the enemy, taking cover behind the spears or pikes if menaced by enemy troops. I do not really want to stretch the Macedonian comparison but they used Psiloi javelinmen (young men not strong or rich enough to wear armour and spear or pike) and specialist mercenary Cretan archers, considered the best archers in the Mediterranan.

[David Scott]

19 minutes ago, icebrand said:

So, yelmalios have kuschile archers (what armor do these usually use?) and sarissa+large shield hoplites with greaves, full helm and maybe cuirass if they can afford, am i correct?

Given that Sun County doesn't use horses as part of their make up, Kuschile Horse Archery will be much more common amongst the Praxian Yelmalions.

19 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Where is the spear used? And the Javelins? Do they have light infantry or skirmishers? What armor do they usually wear? Or are they for adventurers?

As I said above:

Quote

Going back to the seminal Sun County. The Yelmalions with have different arrangements depending on their required actions:

• Full Plate - 1H spear & hoplite shield plus plate armour - guard duty or local defence
• Campaign Gear - 1H spear, hoplite shield, Javelin (2)& Self bow plus Cuirboilli & soft leather limbs & helm, scale hauberk - standard kit for local police actions and remote campaigning.
• Pike and shield - as Full plate, but with 2H Pike & hoplite shield plus plate armour - Mercenary units.

19 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Last, the sidearm question... I imagine when the pike breaks a half can be used as long spear? Is this an acceptable ruling? Maybe this is the secondary weapon and they dont have to rely on a shortsword or dagger they get no training into?

No idea on these. None of the Templars in Sun County have side arms. I alway imagine them kicking and using their shields to batter people.

Edited May 23, 2022 by David Scott

[Russ Massey]

I note that all the Sun Domers assaulting the Cradle have short sword at 45% or 50%.

[SDLeary]

12 hours ago, Eff said:

Well, they do have certain minimal functionality requirements! Slashing cuts are a bit difficult to use with a big shield formation where each person is partially covering the right side of the person on their left- you just have limited room to maneuver. And if the shield formation is broken, your unit is collapsing, not fighting back.  Something that can poke as its primary method of use is pretty handy, and you can make a more triangular blade and say it's a really stretchy Law Rune if you want to introduce meaningful symbolic overtones. 

A single edge sword doesn't preclude stabbing. In fact, because of the back, it could be more rigid, and actually better at stabbing.

SDLeary