Cult Rankings

[Martin Dick]

So lots of discussion about which is the worst cult and how awful the cult of Yelmalio is. Personally to me, it's a meaningless question, the lack of balance is a feature in my opinion and this is something that has been inherent and fairly well-trumpeted for over 40 years of RuneQuest of all versions and clearly stated by Greg Stafford. And of course, if the lack of balance doesn't suit your campaign, then YGWV and you just have to make the changes you think are necessary (e.g. give Yelmalio Shield and True Spear and some Phalanx magic and Bob's your Uncle). So, lengthy discussions about how Cult X sucks are pretty pointless IMO.

But Eff and others did raise a constructive point, which is that for newcomers to RQG, a cult's description doesn't necessarily give a good guide to whether a particular cult is suited to a particular character role, e.g. Yelmalio as a standalone warrior. The interactions of the rules and magic can be very complex. So I did the following table to give a very rough draft idea about what cults are good at things and not at good at others with the following provisos:

1. I'm sure I'm wrong about some of these
2. Some of these are arguable, even if I'm not wrong
3. This is primarily based on rune magic and position in the pantheon, I haven't gone in to detailed access to spirit magic
4. And yes, Shamans are best

Cult Rankings.docx

[Soccercalle]

Interesting. Where did you find write-ups of Hwarin Dalthippa and Jakaleel?

[svensson]

You know, this whole discussion is kind of silly.

In my RQ experience, I've made Rune level in several different cults. And I have to tell you, making RL in a smaller cult, with a smaller niche in the world, is one of the more satisfying RP experiences I've ever had. Becoming a Rune level in, say, the Seven Mothers is almost expected in people who are as naturally talented as PC's are. But the path to that is clearly marked with trainers relatively easy to find. Small cults, OTOH, are much harder. Their criteria are clear, of course, but how to reach those criteria is a pain in the butt. I mean, trying to get effective training in Eurmal's cult and the skills therein is an absolute pain when compared to, say, Ernalda or Yelmalio.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

You know, this whole discussion is kind of silly.

 

Thanks you svensson. I agree whole heartedly! This topic Martin created is the best of the lot,but...

Edited May 30, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

You know, this whole discussion is kind of silly.

...

Yes, it is.

And at the same time, it kinda isn't.

 

I note a relative preponderance of Glorantha/RQ newbies who report this; the report is that the concept/cult they "signed up for" -- from reading the core book, from doing character-creation -- isn't the character they wanted to play, the character they thought  they would get to play.

And frankly, that disconnect is 100% on "grognard syndrome," on us old-timers who have internalized decades of lore, and don't need things laid out clearly in the book.

Note that Chaosium is also grognards, and their work tends to suffer the same "syndrome."

[icebrand]

My players rate the cults like this:

Does it have shield? If yes its playable, otherwise it's an NPC cult.

Edited May 31, 2022 by icebrand

[svensson]

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yes, it is.

And at the same time, it kinda isn't.

 

I note a relative preponderance of Glorantha/RQ newbies who report this; the report is that the concept/cult they "signed up for" -- from reading the core book, from doing character-creation -- isn't the character they wanted to play, the character they thought  they would get to play.

And frankly, that disconnect is 100% on "grognard syndrome," on us old-timers who have internalized decades of lore, and don't need things laid out clearly in the book.

Note that Chaosium is also grognards, and their work tends to suffer the same "syndrome."

Then this can all be solved by simply telling the new player, 'play the cult you want to play'. Well, within reasonable limits.... it's pretty unlikely that a Praxian-style Eiritha-woman is gonna come from Lunar Tarsh, for example, and Storm Bull is pretty rare in Esrolia. The referee has to work with players to put them on the path of where they want to be.

But carry on a debate as to which cult is most über for the power gamer min/max nonsense is disingenuous too.

[svensson]

3 minutes ago, icebrand said:

My players rate the cults like this:

Does it have shield? If yes its playable, otherwise it's an NPC cult.

There are perfectly playable cults that don't have Shield.

If it's that important at your table, fine, but you can play combat-oriented cults without it. Sure, you're probably gonna meed a MP storage crystal, but that's not insurmountable.

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

But carry on a debate as to which cult is most über for the power gamer min/max nonsense is disingenuous too.

There never was any debate. It's ernalda by a landslide. Anything else is *literally* unplayable for the people of the powergaming persuasion, and if you disagree they send a baabester gor after you!

Edited May 31, 2022 by icebrand

[Rob Darvall]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

There are perfectly playable cults that don't have Shield.

 

At your table (and mine tbh).

BUT Yelmalio in the core book does not do what is advertised. He's clearly NOT the premier god for the best phalangites in Glorantha. That they worship him doesn't matter to their battle prowess. The cult does not make in-world sense for this role. 

As a cult of hardscrabble farmers routinely oppressed by their nomad neighbours they're eminently suitable. As oppressed underdogs who produce the very infrequent hero; great. But as the premier, eminently hirable, pike force on the lozenge? I don't see this as an emergent property of the cult as presented atm.

Hunters as an occupation suffer a similar problem.  There are too many occupations that provide better hunting skills.

And before it is said, yes I change it to suit. But I'm a grognard who's been using the system for decades. Not someone first approaching Glorantha through RQG.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

My players rate the cults like this:

Does it have shield? If yes its playable, otherwise it's an NPC cult.

This is what the shield spirit society is for! As long as your cult is ok with spirit cults you can supplement the lack of shield by serving That Shaman Who Found a Powerful Protection Spirit which grants Shield to worshipers. He requires 10% of your income and 20% of your free time. (He will replace the income and time requirements with political favors and being one of his enforcers if you are rune level) YGMV

[g33k]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Then this can all be solved by simply telling the new player ...

What will the  new GM  be telling the new player?
I think I've seen more "new RQ GM" postings in the past year or so, than in the prior ten years...

The problem exists, man!  It's a complaint that we keep hearing.

[7Tigers]

6 hours ago, icebrand said:

My players rate the cults like this:

Does it have shield? If yes its playable, otherwise it's an NPC cult.

Hum, perhaps is it time for your players to learn
1) how to fight more effectively
2) how to solve conflict without (direct) violence
?

[svensson]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

What will the  new GM  be telling the new player?
I think I've seen more "new RQ GM" postings in the past year or so, than in the prior ten years...

The problem exists, man!  It's a complaint that we keep hearing.

I'm not saying it's not a problem. I have my own list of advice for people new to RQ... you've seen me talk about 'no roles' and 'very deadly' and so on.

So perhaps we need to put out a document for the 'New to RQ /RQG' folks out there. As part of that, we might associate cults with character generation occupations [you want to be a warrior, consider these cults] as well as those that form a societal framework [EVERY male in a Sartarite clan can worship Orlanth, for example].

What I don't want to see is power ratings that take roleplay out of the game in favor min/max power gaming, and from what I can see that's what 'power lists' do.

Edited May 31, 2022 by svensson

[French Desperate WindChild]

47 minutes ago, g33k said:

What will the  new GM  be telling the new player?
I think I've seen more "new RQ GM" postings in the past year or so, than in the prior ten years...

The problem exists, man!  It's a complaint that we keep hearing.

is it the right problem in fact ?

 

you're right, the key word is "new" GM and players

and if you remove "new", the problem is GM and players.

if a GM is not able, (or doesn't want) to adapt or  create a scenario, the opponents to fit with the pcs, is it a rule issue ?

if a player is not able (or doesn't want) to find another way than more protection and more damage, is it a rule issue ?

11 minutes ago, 7Tigers said:

Hum, perhaps is it time for your players to learn
1) how to fight more effectively
2) how to solve conflict without (direct) violence
?

tout est dit

 

so maybe, a chapter / supplement dedicated to learn rpg / how a "weak" pc can participate in hard actions, what a gm can do when a (all) pc are too weak to succeed the scenario)

or maybe if occupations and cults are so difficult, a little help for each one : "this occupation/cult is for you if blablabla; this occupation/cult is not for you if blablabla " 

copyright @pookie for this is for you concept. A very good idea

Edited May 31, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, icebrand said:

My players rate the cults like this:

Does it have shield? If yes its playable, otherwise it's an NPC cult.

Note that Issaries still somewhat qualifies under this, due to Spell Trading. 🙂

(Honestly, if you’re looking to min-max your group, one Issaries worshiper is indispensible. It’s far and away the best support cult.)

Edited May 31, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Soccercalle]

I think it very much depends on the campaign and the types of scenarios and players. If combat is the ultimate arbiter for the outcome, then combat Rune Magic is essential. But I have scenarios that often uses stealth and communication. In that case can an Issaries priest be more important than the Humakti. I have have adventures where the players never used their melee skills but often Fast Talk, Intimidate, Scan, Hide or Track. We had one adventure where we needed a champion for a duel and the Humakti was a great asset. But more often they avoid combat. A lot of them are former CoC Players.

[JRE]

If all player characters have shield, most likely they will use violence as the first option, at least till they run out of RPs. Other characters and other magics open other approaches, but it requires the right player and GM approach.

Or you could take the typical CRPG approach and divide them as tanks, strikers, control, healers and support, with many hybrids (Shamans as control, healers and support, depending on the spirit loadout). Shield would be a requirement for most Tanks, but not critical for the other functions. 

It probably would help to define the cult's place in society and in adventuring parties, with the understanding there are always exceptions. 

[Soccercalle]

Shield is a good spell but I usually run 2-3 scenarios every season. With limited availability of temples and holy days. So the players know that they may need to be careful with spending RPs.

[Rob Darvall]

For me it's not about combat, or min-maxing, or adapting my game. It's that the cults and occupations identified don't fit the roles we're told they fill in the world.

We get a combat orientation because one of those roles IS the premier phalangite god.

I really don't care if Yelmalio gets there through a mechanism to pass on his indomitable spirit to his followers, or gifts and gaesa, or plain old rune magic. Just so long as there's a clear path to his filling his social role that's not better filled by another god.

Frex his light powers (Catseye, Sunbright etc) slot him beautifully into a god of the nightwatch (mythically apt too). But that's NOT "premier pike god". 

The path from his myths to his role-as-written is not clear. This is harped on largely because the gods and their myths are the definition of Glorantha. All the other bits that don't fit mechanically pale in comparison. 

 

[JRE]

Following my own words, some examples.

- Humakt. Tank-Striker hybrid, can be run as full tank or full striker, but doing both requires tons of magic (and iron).

- Babeester Gor. Excellent Tank with good striker options. Some control options (elementals)

- Yelmalio. Support, with some striker options depending on gifts (bow, pike). Secondary Tank with heavy armor. 

- Seven Mothers. All combat roles possible with the right magic investment. That is the Lunar way!

- CA. Healer, of course, but also control options with Spirit Magic.

I think that people focus too much on Yelmalio's pikes. They have a gimmick, which is use 2H spear and shield, but being a pike god is the opposite of a god of single combat, like Humakt or even Orlanth, it is a god of mass battle, and we do not have full rules for magic for hundreds right now. We have some ideas for Wyters, but not clear examples of what you can do with them. They are an excellent support for the Dark, as Rob says, and like many culture gods, a jack of all trades, without the many associates and extras of Orlanth. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 minutes ago, JRE said:

Following my own words, some examples.

- Humakt. Tank-Striker hybrid, can be run as full tank or full striker, but doing both requires tons of magic (and iron).

- Babeester Gor. Excellent Tank with good striker options. Some control options (elementals)

- Yelmalio. Support, with some striker options depending on gifts (bow, pike). Secondary Tank with heavy armor. 

- Seven Mothers. All combat roles possible with the right magic investment. That is the Lunar way!

- CA. Healer, of course, but also control options with Spirit Magic.

I think that people focus too much on Yelmalio's pikes. They have a gimmick, which is use 2H spear and shield, but being a pike god is the opposite of a god of single combat, like Humakt or even Orlanth, it is a god of mass battle, and we do not have full rules for magic for hundreds right now. We have some ideas for Wyters, but not clear examples of what you can do with them. They are an excellent support for the Dark, as Rob says, and like many culture gods, a jack of all trades, without the many associates and extras of Orlanth. 

yep

however the issue with your description is focus only on fight, that doesn't describe, from a roleplay perspective, what are the social relationships, the expected behaviours, etc... then not sure Bab's or Humakt are the best, not sure a yelmalian is so bad.
 

These kind of detail should be provided too, to help people to choose.

 

Remember the one, in a pc party (white bull campain), who first "defeated" JarEel is an esrolian Ty Kora Tek initiate.

 

and that is all the issue with these ranking, worst, etc topics ... that is focused on power gaming. What about background, role, etc.. RQG wealth is glorantha background not fighting system.

 

If I had to play a warrior in a sun dome campaign, of course I would choose a yelmalian, no doubt. Probably a polestar in a lunar campagain.  An orlanthi in a sartarite one,  an argan argari in an esrolian one, and a lodrili in a praxian one.

Don't need to show I have the "strongest" character, because everybody knows, I know, I have the longest 😛

[Martin Dick]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

What I don't want to see is power ratings that take roleplay out of the game in favor min/max power gaming, and from what I can see that's what 'power lists' do.

Which is why I did all the various types of occupations/goals, it's not actually aiming to be a power level list, it's just pointing out that an Eurmali noble while potentially lots of fun, probably isn't a good match, especially for a new player and GM. It's like Eiritha, who power wise is pretty much down there, but if you want to have the biggest herd in Prax as your character's goal, then that's the cult to go for IMO. 

I really can't see how it takes roleplay out of the game. It helps new players to get some guidance and anyone who has played with a serious power gamer knows that they'll be focussing in on Humakt/Babeester Gor with very little need for power lists to tell them where to go. 

[JRE]

56 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yep

however the issue with your description is focus only on fight, that doesn't describe, from a roleplay perspective, what are the social relationships, the expected behaviours, etc... then not sure Bab's or Humakt are the best, not sure a yelmalian is so bad.

That is why I clarified it was based on computer RPGs, where roleplaying is limited and combat is plentiful. Support includes things like talking and sneaking, for instance. 

I suspect combat will be the most roll intensive part, so the one where function and suitability is better presented upfront. And parties where everybody is a tank are a one trick pony, and in my experience boring, so it is good for people picking up what they expect they will be doing in combat.

Some groups roleplay personal interactions, some roll. The role of Face will depend a lot on how the group faces conversational challenges. If they roll, you need high skill levels and that usually requires cults with training in those skills, Issaries, Seven Mothers..., but if it is all roleplayed, a honeytongued player with a never bathing Yelmalion character, could be the group's face. That is the smell of sanctity, after all. So how the group plays is also important on what cults are useful as well.

Despite my comments on Sartar 1620-1626, the wealth of information has pushed me to start a limited game in Pavis 1616. The characters will be a double initiate, Issaries Lhankor My, from Nochet, and a Humakt initiate durulz bodyguard. It is intended to be light hearted roguish more in Griselda's footsteps than Prince of Sartar, the webcomic. It is not expected to reach more than God-talker level, as it will be a very mobile game, so temple affiliation would be a problem. The cult affiliations have been chosen to be as neutral and mobile as possible, as well as supplying needed skills. We will be rolling interactions, which is why Issaries was almost a must.

Rune magic is considered secondary, as we do not expect to recover RPs more than one per season, and this will be 50% played, 50% downtime game. One player wanted sorcery which is why they play a double initiate. We have set it up as a Vance and Barry Hughart homage, but I do not know if we will be up to that lofty objective. But we are ready to spend more time talking about bisonburgers (and probably trying to get other beasts in the mincing machine) than what kind of shortsword is Wild Bill's preferred weapon (petite morte). 

 

[icebrand]

7 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

This is what the shield spirit society is for! As long as your cult is ok with spirit cults you can supplement the lack of shield by serving That Shaman Who Found a Powerful Protection Spirit which grants Shield to worshipers. He requires 10% of your income and 20% of your free time. (He will replace the income and time requirements with political favors and being one of his enforcers if you are rune level) YGMV

Yeah i just put shield/absorption/reflect in the standard rune spell list. Everyone is chill now. I also buffed reflect because noone ever used it.

4 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

Hum, perhaps is it time for your players to learn
1) how to fight more effectively
2) how to solve conflict without (direct) violence
?

1) Oh they fought very effectively trust me.

2) this has absolutely nothing to do with having shield or not.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

if a player is not able (or doesn't want) to find another way than more protection and more damage, is it a rule issue.

so maybe, a chapter / supplement dedicated to learn rpg / how a "weak" pc can participate in hard actions, what a gm can do when a (all) pc are too weak to succeed the scenario)

copyright @pookie

Why is there a weak PC without any warning anyway? *SUPRISE!!! YOUR CULT WAS A JOKE CULT!!!* It's like they want to ruin the fun.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Note that Issaries still somewhat qualifies under this, due to Spell Trading. 🙂

(Honestly, if you’re looking to min-max your group, one Issaries worshiper is indispensible. It’s far and away the best support cult.)

Issaries is an S tier god, so they are probably buffing him anyway 🤪

4 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I think it very much depends on the campaign and the types of scenarios and players. If combat is the ultimate arbiter for the outcome, then combat Rune Magic is essential. But I have scenarios that often uses stealth and communication. In that case can an Issaries priest be more important than the Humakti. I have have adventures where the players never used their melee skills but often Fast Talk, Intimidate, Scan, Hide or Track. We had one adventure where we needed a champion for a duel and the Humakti was a great asset. But more often they avoid combat. A lot of them are former CoC Players.

I don't think i ever seen a scenario that doesnt have combat, and i own almost all of them. The closest thing is the one with the lamia that enslaved the town i can't remember the name.

Plus, RQ is a combat based game, it's plain to see just check the depth of the combat rules compared with any other skill, or like... 4/5 spells are combat spells, etc.

I mean theres nothing wrong with roleplaying but you don't really need many rules for that, do you? And if you do there are many other games with actual mechanical depth for that.

3 hours ago, JRE said:

If all player characters have shield, most likely they will use violence as the first option, at least till they run out of RPs. Other characters and other magics open other approaches, but it requires the right player and GM approach.

No, that doesnt happen in my games sorry.

3 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Shield is a good spell but I usually run 2-3 scenarios every season. With limited availability of temples and holy days. So the players know that they may need to be careful with spending RPs.

That affects all rune magic through