Cult Rankings

[Soccercalle]

I don't want to prolong the debate put I have a house rule where the trance spell never can more than double the original skill. A Humakti with 120% broad sword should even with trance be much better than someone with 80% broad sword. Otherwise the second one can easily be much better if they have a bit more magic points available.

[MOB]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

in the garhound festival, I remember lunar and sartarite (garhund people)  competitors too, probably not only yelmalian

In order to participate in The Garhound Contest the only requirement is you belong to a cult that is recognised as a husband-protector of Ernalda. Typically that means Orlanthi and Yelmalions, as they live in the surrounding region. The Lunar-backed candidate in the Melisande's Hand scenario in RQ3's Sun County is actually an Argan Argar worshipper, AA being another of E's husband-protectors.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 minutes ago, MOB said:

In order to participate in The Garhound Contest the only requirement is you belong to a cult that is recognised as a husband-protector of Ernalda. Typically that means Orlanthi and Yelmalions, as they live in the surrounding region. The Lunar-backed candidate in the Melisande's Hand scenario in RQ3's Sun County is actually an Argan Argar worshipper, AA being another of E's husband-protectors.

 

no no, it was about an event outside the contest, not a test to determine the champion

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

Picking Humakt/Babeester Gor as your cult, making sure in character creation that you get your weapon skill as high as possible and choosing Axe Trance/Slash or Sword Trance/True Sword is basic warrior min/maxing in RQG, so yes, it sounds like min/maxing is going on

I think there's some interesting definition fuzziness to that, though, because I always thought of min/maxing as processes that produce characters who are fundamentally unlike the intended character type, distorted by the mechanical focus. But Humakti and Babeester Gori are stereotypically taciturn killers and warriors, so in that sense, pumping up your ability to engage in violence above other options is conforming to the expectations of the fiction.

[Martin Dick]

8 hours ago, icebrand said:

I don't think so. If you want to play a warrior those are the warrior cults, why pick something else? Also a (young) warrior definitively should have their weapon skill as their highest? 

Id argue that a humakti whose best skill*isnt* sword is a poorly built. Reverse minmaxing if you will.

Being down with - is okay with

Being down on - is not okay with it 

Sorry about the confusing phrasing

You pick something else to be a warrior,  other than Humakt/Babeester Gor, because your roleplaying concept for the character is not a devotee of death or a blood-crazed avenger and yes if your definition of well-built is min/maxing the combat potential of the character, then yes, anything else is poorly built. I'm not saying its wrong to do that, it's just a different approach, but it is min/maxing. You know,  it's just like how not everyone in the army is an elite SAS killing machine

My experience as a GM is that:

"A good min/maxer can always come up with a perfectly valid roleplaying reason why their min/maxing should be allowed"

A final comment is that you say you play the published scenarios, so your way can't be too different from the designer's way, well there is a saying in the programming world, that a Fortran programmer can write Fortran code in any programming language.

[Martin Dick]

8 hours ago, Eff said:

I think there's some interesting definition fuzziness to that, though, because I always thought of min/maxing as processes that produce characters who are fundamentally unlike the intended character type, distorted by the mechanical focus. But Humakti and Babeester Gori are stereotypically taciturn killers and warriors, so in that sense, pumping up your ability to engage in violence above other options is conforming to the expectations of the fiction.

As you say, because RQ is not a balanced game world, it's easy to min/max and just say that you are just following the in-world story.

But, intention and the overall campaign context does matter here. If every time someone decides to be a warrior, they choose either Humakt or Babeester Gor,  not because they want to play a taciturn killer who lives by the saying that 'Violence is always an option' and who will take that option, but because that's the game-mechanically best option to maximise your combat power and if every warrior in the campaign is either in the cult of Humakt or the cult of Babeester Gor and there are no Orlanth or Heler or Odaylan or Yinkin or Yelmalio or Rigsdal or Storm Bull warriors (in a Sartarite setting), then I think its fair to say that the broader expectations of the fiction are not being conformed to and that it is min/maxing.

And that is okay, I would be a hypocrite to say I don't min/max, my current character had the goal of being clan chieftain, so I definitely designed the character to be able to do that, but I also designed it to be a decent warrior and to fulfill a role in the party that we had. So, most players do some min/maxing, it's fairly rare in my experience for someone to come up with a character that is a complete dud in their choice of a roleplaying concept

 

[icebrand]

59 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

If every time someone decides to be a warrior, they choose either Humakt or Babeester Gor,  not because they want to play a taciturn killer who lives by the saying that 'Violence is always an option' and who will take that option, but because that's the game-mechanically best option to maximise your combat power and if every warrior in the campaign is either in the cult of Humakt or the cult of Babeester Gor and there are no Orlanth or Heler or Odaylan or Yinkin or Yelmalio or Rigsdal or Storm Bull warriors (in a Sartarite setting), then I think its fair to say that the broader expectations of the fiction are not being conformed to and that it is min/maxing.

I would say that the rules fail to conform in this case; this would be akin to playing dnd and saying "ok, you want to be a fighter, you can be lv1, lv3 or lv5" and then complain that people always pick level 5 and this doesnt fit the lore where there are many more lv1s.

But this is glorantha and the fiction says the 17-year old humakti initiate just uses 1 RP and beats the crap out of the wind lord like Mike Tyson in his prime against a middle schooler; the game is not balanced so this is a feature and you don't get to complain about it.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

As you say, because RQ is not a balanced game world, it's easy to min/max and just say that you are just following the in-world story.

But, intention and the overall campaign context does matter here. If every time someone decides to be a warrior, they choose either Humakt or Babeester Gor,  not because they want to play a taciturn killer who lives by the saying that 'Violence is always an option' and who will take that option, but because that's the game-mechanically best option to maximise your combat power and if every warrior in the campaign is either in the cult of Humakt or the cult of Babeester Gor and there are no Orlanth or Heler or Odaylan or Yinkin or Yelmalio or Rigsdal or Storm Bull warriors (in a Sartarite setting), then I think its fair to say that the broader expectations of the fiction are not being conformed to and that it is min/maxing.

And that is okay, I would be a hypocrite to say I don't min/max, my current character had the goal of being clan chieftain, so I definitely designed the character to be able to do that, but I also designed it to be a decent warrior and to fulfill a role in the party that we had. So, most players do some min/maxing, it's fairly rare in my experience for someone to come up with a character that is a complete dud in their choice of a roleplaying concept

 

Agreed!

In Glorantha, Humakti and Babeester Gor Initiates are actually quite rare. In Sartar, you'd really have to be a Greydog to justify being in that cult. As for Babs, there's some serious work that would need to be done to again, justify the selection as the primary warrior cult to be in.

It's far more likely that any Sartarite would be in Orlanth Adventurous/Vinga than either of those two cults. And even then, that's a pretty low percentage of the population, as Thunderous will probably have more members (Most Orlanthi will be in Barntar anyway). Sure, the Thanes will choose that option...

But, if you're not around the Upland Marsh, Humakti should be very rare... which, of course, you can choose for your character. But don't pretend there's not some min/maxing going on.

BG is a scary cult.. full of scary women. It's not something anyone should be entering into lightly, and realistically, there should be a very good background moment that makes it happen - and "I want to be the best warrior woman I can be" doesn't really cut it! If you join Babs (or Humakt), the character's personality should reflect this (ie, Death).

If the GM isn't having the NPCs be extremely wary around them, then they're not really doing a good job of representing the world.

 

OTOH, the other discussions would suggest that if you play a troll, and you want to be a warrior - you'd be an idiot to want to be a Kaarg's Son, rather than ZZ. And if you're not in Sartar or a troll? What do you do then??? Create an intricate backstory just to justify the oddity? Rather than go with what would be more realistic in-world? If "yes", then it's that m/m again. And for what? 1 spell?

 

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

But this is glorantha and the fiction says the 17-year old humakti initiate just uses 1 RP and beats the crap out of the wind lord like Mike Tyson in his prime against a middle schooler; the game is not balanced so this is a feature and you don't get to complain about it.

Perhaps you should read the "how do I defeat Swordtrance?" thread...

[Joerg]

One insight I took away from Jeff's comment in this thread is that roleplaying groups are like cats. You buy them a cat basket, and they sleep in the delivery box.

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Joerg

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

One insight I took away from Jeff's comment in this thread is that roleplaying groups are like cats. 

Also, herding them is famously difficult.

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

One thing Yelmalio could definitely use then, is a good strong anti-magic spell or buff. In a world of magic, those mundane phalanxes are somewhat vulnerable to AoE spells, or the quick movement of other higher magic types (eg, flight, teleport, mobility for flanking)

OK, we get that Yelmalio is a rubbish fighter cult, you have pointed this out on many occasions.

Sure, we could give Yelmalio better spells, but that would change its very nature.

 

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, we could give Yelmalio better spells, but that would change its very nature.

The magic I think would both help and make sense are:

Some kind of formation soldiering spell, to explain why their otherwise magically impotent units do fine in a high-magic world.

Some magic that helps you survive after you (mythically appropriately) lost the fight. 

[Shiningbrow]

37 minutes ago, soltakss said:

OK, we get that Yelmalio is a rubbish fighter cult, you have pointed this out on many occasions.

I think you're thinking of someone else.....

[icebrand]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps you should read the "how do I defeat Swordtrance?" thread...

I don't need to? I was just pointing out canon.

[JRE]

I think it is clear that we have a lack of information on Communal magic, the magic that goes from the individual spells we have in Runequest to the magical effects that we can see in large scale battles such as seen in the  boardgames or appear in some sources.

I think it is unfair to single out Yelmalio for this, as we do not know how the Lunars could send a monstrous Sunspear against Harrek, or how they can bring down pieces of the moon (Crater Makers), how the Eaglebrown Warlocks can kill enemies miles away, and how the Sun Dome Templars are more resistant to such distant attacks than most other mundane troops. 

I just assume there is such a magic, whether it is a wyter, a communal magic effect, or ritual magic, and if it comes in the game, just most magic will be deflected, most enemy spirits just cannot cross the light emanating from the assembled regiment as they march to contact at a steady pace. Sometime after the heroquest rules, or maybe with them.

[metcalph]

20 minutes ago, JRE said:

how they can bring down pieces of the moon (Crater Makers)

Meteor Swarm spell, Red Moon of Magic p117

[radmonger]

19 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I don't want to prolong the debate put I have a house rule where the trance spell never can more than double the original skill. A Humakti with 120% broad sword should even with trance be much better than someone with 80% broad sword. Otherwise the second one can easily be much better if they have a bit more magic points available.

Perhaps slightly more in the spirit of the rules-as-written is to take the sentence in the sorcery chapter about 'a sorcerer may manipulate a spell up to the limit of their free INT' and note that:

1. _intensity_ is a term defined in the general magic rules, not sorcery.

2. there is a defined conversion between rune points in a spell and intensity.

3. why should a non-sorcerer be able to escape that restriction?

This interpretation would mean that, if the equivalent for a sorcerer's free INT is an initiate's Rune Point pool, they can only put twice that number of MP into any one spell. This also parallels the limitation on spirit magic (one point per CHA) that prevents Bladesharp 27 being a thing.

I think that is enough to prevent any fight players are likely to be involved in turning into degenerate SuperRunequest, where a 300% weapon skill completely neutralizes a 200% weapon skill, and is in turn completely reduced to 5% to hit and parry by the guy with enough MP to get up to 400%. 

In turn, that interpretation is probably enough to make it seem plausible within the rules that no or low-magical combat, as practiced by Yelmalions, is a meaningful part of the world. Just as it means big ritual spells, involving multiple priests combining their pools, have a role that can't be duplicated by an initiate with a few trinkets.

As a Yelmalian, you use your farming magic to grow strong children, and train them to stand in the phalanx beside you. And you use your scouting magic to  ensure you never get into a fight in which your pikes are pointing the wrong way.

For example, the Cults of Prax long-form writeup for Yelmalio Rune Lords states that they get 3 bodyguards permanently assigned, which I don't think any other cult does. That supports the core of the Yelmaian way of fighting; force them to make half a dozen parry rolls before they can get within 2 meters of you.

 

[Martin Dick]

11 hours ago, icebrand said:

But this is glorantha and the fiction says the 17-year old humakti initiate just uses 1 RP and beats the crap out of the wind lord like Mike Tyson in his prime against a middle schooler; the game is not balanced so this is a feature and you don't get to complain about it.

I think any 17 year old Humakti initiate with just Sword Trance is going to be wiped by an Orlanthi WindLord, but even if I assume that you are correct, it doesn't matter. The fictional world we are playing in is Greg Stafford's and Greg spent 50 years approximately writing his fiction and Jeff and co are writing the game to be true to his fiction. Greg was an amazingly creative guy and its his fiction, so if Greg wanted Yelmalio to be a substandard mediocre warrior, then that's how Jeff and co are going to present him. Now, if you don't like it, then change the fiction to suit you and just house-rule like you've done. YGWV has been an important principle in Glorantha for a very long time, so nobody minds if you do that. But you don't get to change the canon, only Chaosium gets to do that (which is not unreasonable)

As well, I really don't think you can validly say that you don't get to complain about it, you've posted 19 times to this thread alone complaining about it, not counting the numerous posts that you've made on other threads complaining about it. I think you've stated your point again and again and again, you just don't like most people's answer.

[icebrand]

3 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

I think any 17 year old Humakti initiate with just Sword Trance is going to be wiped by an Orlanthi WindLord, but even if I assume that you are correct, it doesn't matter. 

It is intended Jeff himself confirmed it. If it doesnt matter for you what's your issue with it???

7 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

As well, I really don't think you can validly say that you don't get to complain about it, you've posted 19 times to this thread alone complaining about it,

Please quote my complaints; that would be super weird (because i have none). 

 

8 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

I think you've stated your point again and again and again, you just don't like most people's answer.

What message are you even reading? I didnt make this thread, i didnt complain, and i didnt make no points. 

[Soccercalle]

Maybe Yelmalio should have a spell like "Morale" which is a ritual that gives everyone in a regiment Fanaticism. But instead of being better in attacks they should be better in shield parries and/or spear (but only in formation). Its a worthless spell for adventurers but a good one for a Yelmalio regiment.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Maybe Yelmalio should have a spell like "Morale" which is a ritual that gives everyone in a regiment Fanaticism. But instead of being better in attacks they should be better in shield parries and/or spear (but only in formation). Its a worthless spell for adventurers but a good one for a Yelmalio regiment.

Except... p222-223 states that while fighting in formation, you have 2 options - a) parry (which breaks the formation), or b) don't parry, and let your shield, and your right-arm shield bearer's shield takes the hit (or, not, as the hit location may be rolled - right leg, abdomen and chest are covered, as is your left arm by your own shield).

Besides, once your enemy is within striking distance, your personal pike isn't going to be doing much.

I certainly think there needs to be something, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[Eff]

17 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

As you say, because RQ is not a balanced game world, it's easy to min/max and just say that you are just following the in-world story.

But, intention and the overall campaign context does matter here. If every time someone decides to be a warrior, they choose either Humakt or Babeester Gor,  not because they want to play a taciturn killer who lives by the saying that 'Violence is always an option' and who will take that option, but because that's the game-mechanically best option to maximise your combat power and if every warrior in the campaign is either in the cult of Humakt or the cult of Babeester Gor and there are no Orlanth or Heler or Odaylan or Yinkin or Yelmalio or Rigsdal or Storm Bull warriors (in a Sartarite setting), then I think its fair to say that the broader expectations of the fiction are not being conformed to and that it is min/maxing.

And that is okay, I would be a hypocrite to say I don't min/max, my current character had the goal of being clan chieftain, so I definitely designed the character to be able to do that, but I also designed it to be a decent warrior and to fulfill a role in the party that we had. So, most players do some min/maxing, it's fairly rare in my experience for someone to come up with a character that is a complete dud in their choice of a roleplaying concept

 

 

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Agreed!

In Glorantha, Humakti and Babeester Gor Initiates are actually quite rare. In Sartar, you'd really have to be a Greydog to justify being in that cult. As for Babs, there's some serious work that would need to be done to again, justify the selection as the primary warrior cult to be in.

It's far more likely that any Sartarite would be in Orlanth Adventurous/Vinga than either of those two cults. And even then, that's a pretty low percentage of the population, as Thunderous will probably have more members (Most Orlanthi will be in Barntar anyway). Sure, the Thanes will choose that option...

But, if you're not around the Upland Marsh, Humakti should be very rare... which, of course, you can choose for your character. But don't pretend there's not some min/maxing going on.

BG is a scary cult.. full of scary women. It's not something anyone should be entering into lightly, and realistically, there should be a very good background moment that makes it happen - and "I want to be the best warrior woman I can be" doesn't really cut it! If you join Babs (or Humakt), the character's personality should reflect this (ie, Death).

If the GM isn't having the NPCs be extremely wary around them, then they're not really doing a good job of representing the world.

 

OTOH, the other discussions would suggest that if you play a troll, and you want to be a warrior - you'd be an idiot to want to be a Kaarg's Son, rather than ZZ. And if you're not in Sartar or a troll? What do you do then??? Create an intricate backstory just to justify the oddity? Rather than go with what would be more realistic in-world? If "yes", then it's that m/m again. And for what? 1 spell?

 

Perhaps you should read the "how do I defeat Swordtrance?" thread...

Well, within the current fiction (https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/1792462364263088/), Humakti make up about 4% of the (adult) population of Sartar, and Babeester Gori make up about 1% of the (adult) population of Sartar, and in a median clan of around 1100-1200 people, there are going to be an average of 50-55 people in those two cults as part of the clan. Even for a small clan of 500, you'd have 5 BG and 20 Humakti on average. So just on the basis of pure numbers, there are clearly a substantial number of people in these cults, enough for there to be actual communities of them even in rural underpopulated parts of Sartar. 

And similarly, Heler, Odayla, and Yinkin rate as minor cults with less than 0.5% of the (adult) population each, Rigsdal doesn't even rate a mention, and while Yelmalio is more common than either, Yelmalio is also, again within the current fiction (https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/1795919117250746/) a regional cult of the Vaantar Sun Dome and Alda-Chur and Alone. Storm Bull is at least common, midway between Humakt and BG. 

And that's one crux here- the visions of Glorantha you two have are not quite what is intended from the Chaosium end of things, and are of course variants... in fairly important ways for what ordinary social existence looks like. 

But another crux here is that the rarity of cults doesn't matter, because player characters are not being produced via random sampling from this imaginary population, they are being created deliberately in accordance with the player's intentions and those of the group and with the knowledge of the setting that's before them. 

I think it's somewhat interesting that Humakt and Babeester Gor are seen as intrinsically prone to min-maxing and needing to be restricted somehow, because it almost implies a kind of yearning for a more balanced Glorantha, though one where the haughty with their trances have been slightly humbled. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Eff
clarifying percentages

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think you're thinking of someone else.....

Apologies if that is the case.

All I hear when people complain that Yelmalio has poor combat spells is "Whahhh, whahhh, whahhh!"

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

I think it's somewhat interesting that Humakt and Babeester Gor are seen as intrinsically prone to min-maxing and needing to be restricted somehow

when humakt and bg are chosen because their spells are more powerful than other warriors cults, it is minmaxing

when humakt and bg are chosen because it is interesting to play a character with some specific psychology, behaviors and duties, it is not minmaxing

 

I think all the debate is here, when you create a ranking of gods, it is for minmaxing. If not, what is the purpose of a ranking ?

[Eff]

Just now, French Desperate WindChild said:

when humakt and bg are chosen because their spells are more powerful than other warriors cults, it is minmaxing

when humakt and bg are chosen because it is interesting to play a character with some specific psychology, behaviors and duties, it is not minmaxing

 

I think all the debate is here, when you create a ranking of gods, it is for minmaxing. If not, what is the purpose of a ranking ?

I think that the purpose of such a ranking might be to provide players with an understanding of what the play experience might be like when they're creating a character, so that they can make an informed decision about what cult best reflects their created character and what they want to do with said character. And if that involves some kind of desire for mechanical effectiveness... why is that a problem in and of itself? It only really seems to be a problem if and when the techniques for becoming mechanically effective are distributed very unevenly.

Because it's honestly really easy to stop a combat monster dead in their tracks- just throw other challenges at them. Dancing, singing, social interaction, playing the violin. The wrinkle there, of course, is that these are generally areas where everyone is equally limited in their ability to boost themselves magically- there's no equivalent to Bladesharp or Truesword for these skills, there's only the fixed and much smaller increases of Glamour and Charisma. But this too is as intended, and in Glorantha, it is simply the case that magic can't enhance music or acting, it can only provide special effects to cover the lip-syncing up.