Cult Rankings

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

 and anyone who has played with a serious power gamer knows that they'll be focussing in on Humakt/Babeester Gor with very little need for power lists to tell them where to go. 

Humakt is not a viable pick when baby Gor is a thing that exists, and ernalda> babs unless all you want to do is kill stuff with your own hands.

Source: a friend told me 🤪

Edited May 31, 2022 by icebrand

[Bill the barbarian]

33 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Spoiler

I don't think i ever seen a scenario that doesnt have combat, and i own almost all of them. The closest thing is the one with the lamia that enslaved the town i can't remember the name.

 

This is darn close to needing a spoiler. That is to say, I think it needs a spoiler though other would not.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

Following my own words, some examples.

- Humakt. Tank-Striker hybrid, can be run as full tank or full striker, but doing both requires tons of magic (and iron).

- Babeester Gor. Excellent Tank with good striker options. Some control options (elementals)

- Yelmalio. Support, with some striker options depending on gifts (bow, pike). Secondary Tank with heavy armor. 

- Seven Mothers. All combat roles possible with the right magic investment. That is the Lunar way!

- CA. Healer, of course, but also control options with Spirit Magic.

Orlanth is tanky AF - everyone’s got Shield (everyone that matters at least, yes I mean you Yelmalio), but Orlanth also packs Woad (king of long-term protection) and Earth Shield (king of absorbing arbitrarily high amounts of damage), and is far and away the most likely to receive the superb Bless Champion. Add Heal Body for when damage slips through anyway.

Probably the most tanky cult if you exclude Trance cheese.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

I did not put Orlanth because I find it overpowered. You can do Tank, expensive striker (lightning and thunderbolt require lots of RPs), Control, Support and a reasonable Healing. Just not all at the same time. So you can finetune it to what you need. 

[Soccercalle]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

Yeah i just put shield/absorption/reflect in the standard rune spell list. Everyone is chill now. I also buffed reflect because noone ever used it.

1) Oh they fought very effectively trust me.

2) this has absolutely nothing to do with having shield or not.

Why is there a weak PC without any warning anyway? *SUPRISE!!! YOUR CULT WAS A JOKE CULT!!!* It's like they want to ruin the fun.

Issaries is an S tier god, so they are probably buffing him anyway 🤪

I don't think i ever seen a scenario that doesnt have combat, and i own almost all of them. The closest thing is the one with the lamia that enslaved the town i can't remember the name.

Plus, RQ is a combat based game, it's plain to see just check the depth of the combat rules compared with any other skill, or like... 4/5 spells are combat spells, etc.

I mean theres nothing wrong with roleplaying but you don't really need many rules for that, do you? And if you do there are many other games with actual mechanical depth for that.

No, that doesnt happen in my games sorry.

That affects all rune magic through 

 

You make a lot of good points. And I agree that RQG in many ways are a combat focused RPG. Where most of the detailed rules are about combat. 

But I have a lot of players who thinks that long detailed melee sessions are quite boring. They love the investigations, the relations and the drama. They also complement each other. A group of five Yanafal Tarnils Rune Lords would probably win more battles than a group with say Vinga, Humakt, Orlanth Thu, Odayla and Issaries. But I can think about a lot of adventures where the second group is more useful, and much more fun.

[icebrand]

41 minutes ago, JRE said:

I did not put Orlanth because I find it overpowered. You can do Tank, expensive striker (lightning and thunderbolt require lots of RPs), Control, Support and a reasonable Healing. Just not all at the same time. So you can finetune it to what you need. 

Orlanth is S tier instead. But don't fall into the lightning trap that spell is terribad; Thunderbolt has some merit because it doesnt have POW vs POW but still flight is like... 12d6 fall damage every other round? For 2-3 RP and you can use it over and over and over and over until your target dies, and then you can throw it over someones head for even more damage.

36 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

But I have a lot of players who thinks that long detailed melee sessions are quite boring. They love the investigations, the relations and the drama. They also complement each other. A group of five Yanafal Tarnils Rune Lords would probably win more battles than a group with say Vinga, Humakt, Orlanth Thu, Odayla and Issaries. But I can think about a lot of adventures where the second group is more useful, and much more fun.

I couldnt tell, my melees are fast and brutal, and if course only a fraction of the total playtime is spent in combat.

What i can tell you is that many people playing fantasy roleplay like combat. The players that don't are few and far between, and usually end up playing something else, where the archetipical story isnt "lets beat up those guys and take their stuff".

Also the group with the yanafals aint winning that unless the lightbringers terribly misplay? I mean, maybe if you force everyone to melee but with the info you giving me and similar skill levels the lightbringers win that medium difficulty.

[Jeff]

This entire discussion is so far away from the approach that anyone on our design team takes as to be almost painful to read. This is like a glimpse through a glass darkly into a strange Bizarro dimension.

[icebrand]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This entire discussion is so far away from the approach that anyone on our design team takes as to be almost painful to read. This is like a glimpse through a glass darkly into a strange Bizarro dimension.

I'm sorry but i feel compelled to quote what you wrote:

"One other thing - Greg used to say that his definition of an "internet troll" was someone who did not positively contribute to a conversation - be it by providing an answer (and when possible what that answer is based on), providing additional ideas and thoughts, or just keeping things friendly and positive. Walls of text or snark do not positively contribute to a conversation".

Edit: if you have the time i would love to hear why don't you like this, what approach do you take and why? Also what is it specifically that pains you?

Edited May 31, 2022 by icebrand

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is it the right problem in fact ?

 

you're right, the key word is "new" GM and players

and if you remove "new", the problem is GM and players.

if a GM is not able, (or doesn't want) to adapt or  create a scenario, the opponents to fit with the pcs, is it a rule issue ?

if a player is not able (or doesn't want) to find another way than more protection and more damage, is it a rule issue ?

tout est dit

 

so maybe, a chapter / supplement dedicated to learn rpg / how a "weak" pc can participate in hard actions, what a gm can do when a (all) pc are too weak to succeed the scenario)

or maybe if occupations and cults are so difficult, a little help for each one : "this occupation/cult is for you if blablabla; this occupation/cult is not for you if blablabla " 

copyright @pookie for this is for you concept. A very good idea

Treating it as a new GMs fault that they don’t understand the unstated assumptions* of the designers without help will only make it harder than necessary to get into the game. It would be preferable if Runequest/Glorantha grows to become a major community rather than remaining a small niche within the RPG space. To do that it would make sense to remove pointless obstacles to learning the system like the major unstated assumptions of the designers not being compiled by the community in a single document. We shouldn’t assume that new GMs will have enough knowledge to tinker with the rules, so a document consisting of a collection of house rules and what they accomplish would also be useful to new GMs. (If X is goal houserules 2, 8, and 13 will help)

 

*cults aren’t balanced, socal position matters, etc.

Edited May 31, 2022 by FlamingCatOfDeath
Expanding on my wall of text

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Treating it as a new GMs fault

I did not say "fault", I said problem. It is not a question of moral judgment. Reread my post, I just said it is not a rule issue. And what I proposed was some help  too, not house rules, more explanation of the so many possibilities.
 

there are some key sentences in glorantha I always have in mind

your glorantha may vary, there is no absolute truth

violence is always an option, so yes fight is important

there is always another way, the supposed weakness should let you imagine other options to succeed

 

but is it really usefull ?

not sure, if people want absolutly to be right, to be the one who knows and if others disagree that means others are wrong...

[icebrand]

Just now, French Desperate WindChild said:

 Reread my post, I just said it is not a rule issue.

There are several persons saying it is Indeed a rules issue -or at least a game text issue- so if you say that you would need to explain why!

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I did not say "fault", I said problem. It is not a question of moral judgment. Reread my post, I just said it is not a rule issue. And what I proposed was some help  too, not house rules, more explanation of the so many possibilities.

I did not mean fault in a moral sense I meant that you were dismissing the previous post about how the community needs to do a better job at educating new GMs. The houserules suggestion was a secondary point. (Mostly concerned with stuff like the RAW CHA species Max for fox women being lower than human despite that making absolutely no sense and how training stats interacts weirdly with species with stat bonuses)

[icebrand]

18 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

He's clearly NOT the premier god for the best phalangites in Glorantha. 

Ackshually... The best phalangites are the agimori (regarded as the very best infantry in the whole glorantha according to borderlands & beyond)

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

20 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Ackshually... The best phalangites are the agimori (regarded as the very best infantry in the whole glorantha according to borderlands & beyond)

You mean the Men and a half. The agimori are a much broader group including a bunch of basically normal humans.

Edited May 31, 2022 by FlamingCatOfDeath
Clarification

[Eff]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:52 AM, Martin Dick said:

So lots of discussion about which is the worst cult and how awful the cult of Yelmalio is. Personally to me, it's a meaningless question, the lack of balance is a feature in my opinion and this is something that has been inherent and fairly well-trumpeted for over 40 years of RuneQuest of all versions and clearly stated by Greg Stafford. And of course, if the lack of balance doesn't suit your campaign, then YGWV and you just have to make the changes you think are necessary (e.g. give Yelmalio Shield and True Spear and some Phalanx magic and Bob's your Uncle). So, lengthy discussions about how Cult X sucks are pretty pointless IMO.

But Eff and others did raise a constructive point, which is that for newcomers to RQG, a cult's description doesn't necessarily give a good guide to whether a particular cult is suited to a particular character role, e.g. Yelmalio as a standalone warrior. The interactions of the rules and magic can be very complex. So I did the following table to give a very rough draft idea about what cults are good at things and not at good at others with the following provisos:

1. I'm sure I'm wrong about some of these
2. Some of these are arguable, even if I'm not wrong
3. This is primarily based on rune magic and position in the pantheon, I haven't gone in to detailed access to spirit magic
4. And yes, Shamans are best

 

Cult Rankings.docx 21.61 kB · 44 downloads

 

Well, thank you for your efforts here! I think I have, if it is appropriate and not another example of pain-inducing verbiage, some thoughts on your table in a formal/structural sense. 

The main thing I want to unpick here is "social status". What does that mean/should that mean in terms of Runequest play? To borrow a bit of game design jargon, are there verbs peculiar to these high social status cults, ways in which playing them unlocks abilities to alter the world? Or should we think of this mostly in terms of gratification- these are cults that will give you a synchronous sense of yourself as an important person in the fictional setting? 

I think that the tangle between these two concepts here is what is at the core of my point about Yelmalio- should a cult be understood first and foremost in terms of the agency that it gives a player character, or in terms of the gratification from pretending to be part of the cult? These are obviously related concepts, but I think the primacy of them does matter here. 

To zero in a bit on a specific cult, Red Goddess is an interesting cult to place anywhere, because the requirements to enter the cult already make a player character someone who has significant agency from three separate sources- having big stat numbers as part of becoming a Rune Level, having the social position of being a Rune Level and the verbs that come with that specific cult's position, and having Illumination. The things that come from the cult itself feel much less focused on being someone of importance socially and more on gaining... let me play with that previous bit of jargon and say, "conjugations", ways of affecting the verbs of spirit magic with Lunar Magic abilities. But of course access to these unique magic-focused abilities is gated behind all of those other things that are technically not part of the cult. It's an interesting thing to turn around in one's head! 

At the same time, I think the ways in which certain columns are nearly empty points to the way in which there are core competencies, around violence, magic, "social status", and healing, and then these side competencies like trading, having knowledge, being able to interact with strangeness, and the like. 

And of course, a cult like Teelo Norri is so difficult to place in an agentic mode that I've characterized it as "not for play", which is apparently contrary to the beliefs of the designers about what cults are appropriate to play. So maybe thinking in these terms is just inappropriate generally for Runequest, hahaha!

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

And of course, a cult like Teelo Norri is so difficult to place in an agentic mode that I've characterized it as "not for play", which is apparently contrary to the beliefs of the designers about what cults are appropriate to play. So maybe thinking in these terms is just inappropriate generally for Runequest, hahaha!

Have you seen the GaGoG write up for it? I would be fascinated to hear about it if you have, I have never understood what magic the social worker cult would give, and I would love to find out. (I assume that the cult is manly appropriate in a dedicated social worker campaign)

[Eff]

Just now, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Have you seen the GaGoG write up for it? I would be fascinated to hear about it if you have, I have never understood what magic the social worker cult would give, and I would love to find out. (I assume that the cult is manly appropriate in a dedicated social worker campaign)

My entirely secondhand understanding of the cult is that it offers no magic at all, Rune or spirit, and possibly no skill training either. Which is, to my mind, entirely appropriate because of both what Teelo Norri signifies symbolically, and because there's a deeper "lore meaning" there to play with and reformulate your understanding of the Lunars through. But I still wouldn't tell players that they should play Teelo Norri if they wanted to play a fantasy social worker!

[French Desperate WindChild]

25 minutes ago, icebrand said:

There are several persons saying it is Indeed a rules issue -or at least a game text issue- so if you say that you would need to explain why!

and there are some who said  the opposite. And the explanation is based on one word : "roleplay & background"

check my previous posts, and others, there are explanations.

 

anyone has is own cursor between rules and roleplay, between being the strongest in the group and being useful to the group (as a player), between favorizing one kind of play style and offering opportunities to all styles to have one day the "first" role (as a gm)

 

but this personal cursor should not define what is good or what is wrong, what sucks, and what's great.

there are things I love in rqg, there are things I dislike a little bit. But I don't say hey this rule / cult / occupation / spell sucks, I first look for why it was designed as is, and if the answers don't convince me, I create my house rules. End of the discussion. There is no reason to consider my choice are better than  the designers choice

If I consider a game rules suck, that means this game is not for me, that's all, no offense for the game, no offense for the players.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Even from a roleplaying, non-powergaming perspective, how a PC performs at their primary role matters.  At least, for many players it does, as it affects their game fun.

I participated in a one-off game, GMed by @Todd@Chaosium, where a small party of the PCs called in their favors to hire some muscle for a major assault on Snakepipe Hollow.  I got to run White-Eye, a large intimidating troll, who was around 100% in weapons skills and, especially with some sorcerous help, did a ton of damage.  Basically every round, I took out a bad guy's leg (I think I rolled 1 or 2 for most every hit location die!).  That felt pretty awesome, except...

Another PC was a small Duck, but a Humakti Duck who had Sword Trance.

1. He was even more awesome in combat, taking out multiple opponents a round (mainly by parrying their 5% chances to hit, and then destroying their weapon, arm, or teeth)
2. All the enemy magical focus was on him.  All their Befuddles, etc.  They eventually got their act together and Dismissed the Sword Trance.  Next round he put it back up.  Enemy focus resumed.

Had I been an actual PC playing in their campaign, this would grow tiresome quickly.  All the songs and glory would go to the Duck.  I want to play a tough intimidating fighter, and I'm completely eclipsed by a Duck?

BTW, another guest player, very experienced, ran a Yelmalian.  We had great fun insulting and quipping with each other.  Once the battle started, she was barely noticeable.  At least I could do enough damage to take out opponents.  Her character pretty much tinked the whole battle. 

Now, maybe some players enjoy playing the equivalent of Joxer the Mighty.  Most don't.

[Eff]

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Even from a roleplaying, non-powergaming perspective, how a PC performs at their primary role matters.  At least, for many players it does, as it affects their game fun.

I participated in a one-off game, GMed by @Todd@Chaosium, where a small party of the PCs called in their favors to hire some muscle for a major assault on Snakepipe Hollow.  I got to run White-Eye, a large intimidating troll, who was around 100% in weapons skills and, especially with some sorcerous help, did a ton of damage.  Basically every round, I took out a bad guy's leg (I think I rolled 1 or 2 for most every hit location die!).  That felt pretty awesome, except...

Another PC was a small Duck, but a Humakti Duck who had Sword Trance.

1. He was even more awesome in combat, taking out multiple opponents a round (mainly by parrying their 5% chances to hit, and then destroying their weapon, arm, or teeth)
2. All the enemy magical focus was on him.  All their Befuddles, etc.  They eventually got their act together and Dismissed the Sword Trance.  Next round he put it back up.  Enemy focus resumed.

Had I been an actual PC playing in their campaign, this would grow tiresome quickly.  All the songs and glory would go to the Duck.  I want to play a tough intimidating fighter, and I'm completely eclipsed by a Duck?

BTW, another guest player, very experienced, ran a Yelmalian.  We had great fun insulting and quipping with each other.  Once the battle started, she was barely noticeable.  At least I could do enough damage to take out opponents.  Her character pretty much tinked the whole battle. 

Now, maybe some players enjoy playing the equivalent of Joxer the Mighty.  Most don't.

And maybe we can evaluate this as "working as intended," that whatever outcome emerges is a reflection (rather than an formation) of how Glorantha "actually is", whatever that means for a fictional setting which exists on paper and in code. And that punts the question over to "Who is Glorantha for?" 

But I kind of doubt we should. Because, well, Gloranthan fiction/lore doesn't center around Humakti outshining everyone. To go back to Sam the Eagle and Inspector Zenigata, both of them get moments where they get to be heroic in a Muppets/Lupin III context, and Yelmalions should be able to experience that kind of shining moment as well. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

I'm sorry but i feel compelled to quote what you wrote:

"One other thing - Greg used to say that his definition of an "internet troll" was someone who did not positively contribute to a conversation - be it by providing an answer (and when possible what that answer is based on), providing additional ideas and thoughts, or just keeping things friendly and positive. Walls of text or snark do not positively contribute to a conversation".

Edit: if you have the time i would love to hear why don't you like this, what approach do you take and why? Also what is it specifically that pains you?

I think it is useful for people to know that this is not how the writers approach any of these cults, and even the tools being used for analysis would be discouraged for writers. To me this whole approach seems to be an attempt to hammer a square peg into a round hole. The cults are what they are - that's the setting. If you want to change them for your game, do it. If you want to get rid of Boldhome, the Holy Country, or the Lunar Empire, do it. But to the RQ design team, these cults have the spells and abilities they should have. Sure, there are local variants with some additional spells or a some well-known spells missing, or with some gifts and geases not seen elsewhere, but they are more or less as published. 

Plenty of people have played Yelmalio characters - heck, one of my current group plays a Yelmalio-worshiping Zebra Rider! In my own games, we've had players follow Yelmalio, Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal, Chalana Arroy, Maran Gor, Babeester Gor, Storm Bull. Ty Kora Tek, Pavis, Lanbril, Lodril, Yelm, Seven Mothers, Yanafal Tarnils, Shargash, Aldrya, Zorak Zoran, Kyger Litor, Argan Argar, Heler, Waha, Eiritha, Ygg, Dormal, Daka Fal, Black Fang, and various Malkioni sects. And that's just RQG. 

Each of these cults provided fun and interest for their players. I don't think any player I have gamed with ever picked a cult because they were trying to figure out which was most effective. Almost always they start with a culture, then a background, then pick the Runes that appeals to them, then pick an occupation - and only then pick out a cult that would work for them.

As an aside, a quick survey of the Red Book of Magic rune spells A-C had about 52% of the spells being fundamentally non-combat oriented and only 48% being primarily combat related. That's high of course, but no where near the 4 out 5 spells you claimed above. Are you reading the same material?
 

[radmonger]

23 minutes ago, Eff said:

And of course, a cult like Teelo Norri is so difficult to place in an agentic mode that I've characterized it as "not for play", which is apparently contrary to the beliefs of the designers about what cults are appropriate to play. So maybe thinking in these terms is just inappropriate generally for Runequest, hahaha!

Even without an official writeup, the three words 'heroic social worker' are clearly going to lead to a cult in which both the people in it, and the players of those pleople are satisfied with what they can do and how. They are the best at what they do, and what they do is actually pretty nice.

Plenty of cults give you good healing magic, noone else has 'speak to the mad', 'self sacrifice', 'create obligation' or whatever other rune spells a social worker could dream about. One distinction made by some anthropologists is that a cult is a religious organistion typically joined by adults, as opoosed to one you are born into. Those anthropologists are sadly silent on what a _rune cult_ is. But it is clear that Tello Norri is going to be a game-world organisation some adults would choose to join in-world.

The cults that people complain about are those that don't have that kind of hook. Yelmalio as currently written up in RQ:G is just a spell list and a sentence about 'templar mercenaries' that don't really line up together in any obvious way.

The longer RQ:3 and earlier writeups do work better. The thing is, they only really apply to one mode of Yelmalio worship; that by communities of farmers who organise their own defence. There the hook is simple; if you come from Sun County, or one of the similar communities, you are a Yelmalian. It's a _religion_, not a _cult_; you were born into it. You learn to fight with a spear, or not at all.

But they are largely silent about the other 3 known types of Yelmalio worshippers; elves, nomads, and Orlanthi. 

Elves you can probably see how things works, given how important light is to plants; they are plant tenders by day, forest defenders by night. But amongst horse and animal nomads, and Theyalan hill barbarians, Yelmalio is not that kind of dominant religion. But neither does it have any kind of obvious hook that would attract a subset of people by preference or vocation.  Is it more like an ethnicity? Or is there actually some social role that leads to someone born to Orlanthi and Ernaldan parents ending up Yelmalian?

Maybe the answer exists on a forum post somewhere, but I've not seen it.

I'll give an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Perhaps amongst animal nomads, Yelmalio is the cult for those who did not grow up on bisonback. As the god of riding, he lets foreigners and captives adopted into the clan keep up with the majority who have been riding since they were 8. Such people, being of lower status and expected to be grateful for tribal membership at all,  normally get assigned the job of night watchman over the herds. Meanwhile the Waha braves are mostly off trying to csapture new herds for them to guard.

 

 

[Rob Darvall]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

Ackshually... The best phalangites are the agimori (regarded as the very best infantry in the whole glorantha according to borderlands & beyond)

Who are rare and largely confined to Prax, intruding little on the interests of generals who'd hire pike regiments.

The Sun Dome regiments have changed the course of history. 

What about them makes this possible? What is their source of power?

I'm perfectly happy for Yelmalian PCs to "tink" in battle. As individuals they have other contributions (cf nightwatch). But *how do they fit this role we've been told they play in Glorantha*? What causes the stats we see on the WBRM counter?

Unlike the Men-and-a-Half the answer to this question has a bearing on the Herowars.

[Dissolv]

Lhankhor Mhy and Issaries are consistently the most powerful cults in my campaigns. 

Players who gravitate towards them are likely the cause, as these tend to be the mature role players, but these are the cults that consistently prove to be the problem solvers and scenario resolvers that move my campaign arcs forward.

Every now and again I get a well played shaman, and they are amazing in the hands of an active player, who isn't just scanning his sheet for things with more "d6 damage" on them.   Sorcerers are even more rare, and even more potentially impactful, in all manner of ways that are hard to predict.  However RQ:G Sorcery just isn't complete, from a player or GM's point of view.

In terms of raw combat power -- which is where this conversation immediately headed -- frankly most of my better role players see them as fairly interchangeable, if not generic.   Clearly, they are not, but it is the role of heroic combat, which I do fancy as part of bronze age role playing that matters, not the precise mechanics.   The adult role players in the room appreciate the role, and will sometimes take on the role, but generally don't seem to have a preference for whichever flavor is preferred by the player(s) taking on that role.

One group I GM has a Humakt duck, who is probably hands down the most powerful in combat (if his Rune points hold out), but when push comes to shove the group prefers mass buffing a Storm Bull worshiper and letting him go to town.  We have had two combats with RQ:G where a Storm Bull was so massively buffed by the rest of the party that they literally could not physically keep pace with his berserk rampage to keep within spell support distance (and eyesight).  It was like watching a Hero counter from White Bear and Red Moon go to work.  This feels thematic and clearly provides the role of "combat machine" that some heavy combat scenarios call for.  But my experienced players do not achieve this by the power of a single cult.  They dump the best of everything onto one guy, support him strongly with heals and dispels as needed, and make do with spirit magic themselves.  

My other, less experienced group used Orlanth for the "heavy combat" role, and it was devastating to the bad guys.  However the player saw no reason to fight fair, and would commonly use stealth, missile ambush, night attacks, and the movement powers for tactical advantage.   When it came time for melee, he was no slouch, but typically he had already worked hard to give himself every possible advantage.  This suited that group much more than a straight up do-or-die honorable Humakti.  Several times that character was saved from death by a key Dismiss Magic or Spirit Block at a critical moment (Lhankhor Mhy player) or a Heal Body to get back into the fight after he had just been trounced (Yelmalio Sable Rider player).  

Note that this group also had an Orlanth farmer, who just never was a combat powerhouse.  He struggled the whole campaign and while able to contribute quite a lot (especially to the plot), but he never achieved the power level that the Orlanth Warrior did by the end.  Combination of background, stats, cripplingly low Pow, and switching weapon sets mid stream.  But neither was he ever expected to be a super-tank.  He was a farmer who was motivated in helping the rebellion.  That's what he role played, and he did very well at it. 

Combat is not a casual thing in this game -- or you are doing it wrong.  Even Achilles gets killed in the end.  The Lhankhor Mhy and Issaries advantage (and likely some other cults as well) have the advantage of "winning" multiple potential combat encounters via other methods, bypassing the contest of runes and swords, and advancing the plot without taking unnecessary risks, and burning unnecessary rune and power points.  This is HUGE in a campaign set up to (potentially) have multiple "adventures" in between rune point recovery sessions, which I think is the superior way to play the game as it stands.

Because combat is not casual, players who lean on their Rune spells and character sheets to "out Rune" the other guys should eventually come to a heroic end.  25 point acid blood on that Broo, crippling disease caught in the wilds, a party of Yanfal Tarnils advocates backed by Red Goddess support, looking to prove who is best, Trolls with overwhelming waves of undead and trollkin, Nomad who ride around and wait out the party Rune magic, ambushing Exiles who strike, fully buffed, when the party is unaware of the danger.....these are how those sort of players should go down in (heroic) flames.  

It is the clever players who work the scenario and the campaign to avoid such events, (or be on the right side of them!) as much as possible, who thrive.  Even in combat, clever play is vastly superior to a stacked character sheet. 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Dissolv

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Who are rare and largely confined to Prax, intruding little on the interests of generals who'd hire pike regiments.

The Sun Dome regiments have changed the course of history. 

What about them makes this possible? What is their source of power?

I'm perfectly happy for Yelmalian PCs to "tink" in battle. As individuals they have other contributions (cf nightwatch). But *how do they fit this role we've been told they play in Glorantha*? What causes the stats we see on the WBRM counter?

Unlike the Men-and-a-Half the answer to this question has a bearing on the Herowars.

What makes them work is necessity. The Sun Dome temples early on learned that disciplined masses of spearmen could outperform tribal militias, horse thanes, arrays of levies led by Sun priests, mobs of trolls, etc. Sure they aren't better than the best units that Sartar or the Lunar Empire can muster, but they are better than MOST units.