Cult Rankings

[Eff]

To offer an immediate example from my own experience, I joined a game where the premise involved playing through classic RQ2 and new Jonstown Compendium modules, and so when I created my first character I decided she was going to be a fisherwoman, and the suggestions were Engizi and Orlanth, and I looked at Engizi's spell list and contemplated whether, in a group with assistant shamans and Ernaldans and Argan Argar cultists, it would be a good idea to play a rivergod cultist and make it rain only in the dull literal sense, or play an Orlanth cultist and at least have an emergency lightning reserve for running through the Rainbow Mounds or defending the Munchrooms. 

Does this constitute min-maxing? 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

And if that involves some kind of desire for mechanical effectiveness... why is that a problem in and of itself?

not why, but when 🙂

if you read a lot of posts here, the issue is not a table desiring effectiveness.

 

that is this "yelmic" notion of "you don't do/think what I expect, that sucks" which is challenged, not the choice of any table.

 

There are other options because there are different gaming styles.

And with some other gaming styles, cults design seems to me very appropriate / "eff-ective" to play

As I said, a "low ranked" cult as written offers a lot of opportunities, when GM and players propose them.

[radmonger]

On 6/1/2022 at 5:14 AM, Rob Darvall said:

So is this in any way dependent on their God? Or is it a skill any culture could learn?

Orlanthi _could_ learn to stand still in close ordered ranks while fighting, but they _won't_. (Or maybe those that did became Yelmalians). Humakti could abandon the sword, or Goreans the axe, but they won't. They are warrior cults, with fighting magic that determines the way they are going to fight, whether it works or not.

Yelmalians have the truth rune, so they are going to accept the objective military superiority of the spear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Orlanthi _could_ learn to stand still in close ordered ranks while fighting, but they _won't_. (Or maybe those that did became Yelmalians). Humakti could abandon the sword, or Goreans the axe, but they won't.

Is there a prohibition, or even a suggestion, against Orlanthi forming Shield Walls?  No.

Is there a rule against Humakti using bows, daggers, javelins, or lances?  Only if they roll a 68-71.  Those skills explicitly count towards becoming a Rune Lord, see page 297: "any other weapon attack". 

I bet that almost every Humakti PC is capable with one or more of those weapons.  Or some non-sword weapon.  (I'm not clear if Dagger is a "sword" or not.)

Orlanth Wind Lords are also allowed any other melee or missile weapons to qualify.  Yelmalio must be bow, javelin, or spear.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there a prohibition, or even a suggestion, against Orlanthi forming Shield Walls?  No.

I think it’s fair to say that the Orlanthi shield wall will often be less disciplined and more inclined to charging. But obviously formation fighting is absolutely critical for any medium infantry.

[Martin Dick]

9 hours ago, Eff said:

I think it's somewhat interesting that Humakt and Babeester Gor are seen as intrinsically prone to min-maxing and needing to be restricted somehow, because it almost implies a kind of yearning for a more balanced Glorantha, though one where the haughty with their trances have been slightly humbled. 

I'm not really sure how you perceived that, when I thought I was clear that I think that it's okay to min/max and that I do it myself and that I'm entirely happy with a Glorantha where Humakt and Babeester Gor are the premier warrior cults and just better on average than the others (at least in Central Genertela) and where Yelmalio is weak as a warrior. So, I think my view and Chaosium's view of the fiction and the lack of need for balance are fairly well-aligned

And personally I'm much happier to play a campaign where all sorts of skills are valued and mechanically-effective and I don't have to be a combat monster to survive. Many years ago, I played in a AD&D campaign like that where we all played Fighters and Clerics, because if you couldn't wear platemail, you were dead meat. Now, it was fun at the time, but it was 40 years ago and I'm past that. 

When I get my campaign up and running, if someone wants to min-max their combat monstery and take Humakt or Babeester Gor as their cult they can, and as you say they won't dominate the campaign because the campaign is planned to value other capabilities than just combat monstery. I would prefer them to think a bit about the campaign context and choose a roleplaying conception that is more than combat monster and knowing the likely players, they are likely to do that. So, I'm not 100% behind Shiningbrow on being very strict on having to have a really strong conception before allowing players into those cults, but if you want a really roleplaying-oriented campaign, then you need to start the way you want to go on.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Martin Dick

[Martin Dick]

5 hours ago, Eff said:

To offer an immediate example from my own experience, I joined a game where the premise involved playing through classic RQ2 and new Jonstown Compendium modules, and so when I created my first character I decided she was going to be a fisherwoman, and the suggestions were Engizi and Orlanth, and I looked at Engizi's spell list and contemplated whether, in a group with assistant shamans and Ernaldans and Argan Argar cultists, it would be a good idea to play a rivergod cultist and make it rain only in the dull literal sense, or play an Orlanth cultist and at least have an emergency lightning reserve for running through the Rainbow Mounds or defending the Munchrooms. 

Does this constitute min-maxing? 

So, campaign context matters and aligning your player character to fit in with the campaign context isn't really min/maxing to me, it's just being a collaborative player. So looking at this campaign context, where you are playing classic RQ2 scenarios, then you know that there's going to be quite a lot of combat (and the rest of the party are not exactly combat monsters), so in my opinion it's not min/maxing to want to have a character that can actually participate in the battles and have an influence. 

So, if you are happy to play an Orlanthi, I think it's not min/maxing. But looking at that group, it would likely be that the character's role will be Combat Monster, so you should be prepared to head down that path. But if you don't want to play an Orlanthi and really want to play the Engizi fisherman, then yes, you are low-level min-maxing (min-maxing is a range not a black or white thing). 

My advice as a min-maxer would be to use one of your rune points to dual initiate in to Engizi and Orlanth Thunderous (great Associate Cult spells) it's not a problem as they are associated cults and an emergency Thunderbolt is better than an emergency Lightning, make sure you generate a decent combat skill during character creation and get some Protection 😈 plus I'm sure that you could come up with a great roleplaying concept to go along with the min-maxing

 

[Martin Dick]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:53 PM, icebrand said:

Why is there a weak PC without any warning anyway? *SUPRISE!!! YOUR CULT WAS A JOKE CULT!!!* It's like they want to ruin the fun.

Looks like a complaint to me, but if you feel that it isn't, well that's okay. I won't be continuing this part of the thread

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

My advice as a min-maxer would be to use one of your rune points to dual initiate in to Engizi and Orlanth Thunderous (great Associate Cult spells) it's not a problem as they are associated cults and an emergency Thunderbolt

That simply does not work.  You need 3 Orlanth rune points to cast Thunderbolt.  Associate cults don't help.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Rob Darvall]

14 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

, so if Greg wanted Yelmalio to be a substandard mediocre warrior, then that's how Jeff and co are going to present him.

But Yelmalian pike formations are demonstrably NOT substandard mediocre warriors.
Why is it so?
What about Yelmalio makes his followers such good soldiers? He's clearly a great god for plucky underdogs but why brilliant pike formations? What was the neccessity for Yelmalians above all others? I get that crap individual magic may have forced increased discipline as a survival mechanism, but what made Yelmalio special in this respect?

[Martin Dick]

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That simple does not work.  You need 3 Orlanth rune points to cast Thunderbolt.  Associate cults don't help.

Sure it does, start with 2 Orlanth rune points and one Engizi rune point and sacrifice a point of POW to get your third Orlanth Rune Point and also get your third Orlanth rune spell, BOOM THUNDERBOLT away! 

If you don't want drop your POW, then wait until you make a POW gain roll

[Martin Dick]

1 minute ago, Rob Darvall said:

But Yelmalian pike formations are demonstrably NOT substandard mediocre warriors.
Why is it so?
What about Yelmalio makes his followers such good soldiers? He's clearly a great god for plucky underdogs but why brilliant pike formations? What was the neccessity for Yelmalians above all others? I get that crap individual magic may have forced increased discipline as a survival mechanism, but what made Yelmalio special in this respect?

Yelmalians are mediocre warriors, that's well-established

But as you say, it's also well-established that they are good, if not elite soldiers.

A warrior isn't the same thing as a soldier. According to Jeff, they are good soldiers because their culture and common mindset makes them good soldiers and that comes from their history and the values of Yelmalio.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

Sure it does, start with 2 Orlanth rune points and one Engizi rune point and sacrifice a point of POW to get your third Orlanth Rune Point and also get your third Orlanth rune spell, BOOM THUNDERBOLT away! 

If you don't want drop your POW, then wait until you make a POW gain roll

Your original post, as I quoted, said use one of your rune points to associate into Orlanth.  Not three.

Your corrected solution is to use 3 of your 4 rune points in Orlanth, not Engizi.  Reasonable.  But it's just proof that Orlanth is the far better cult.

"Engezi is a fine cult.  Just be sure to put almost all your effort into Orlanth".  Not persuasive. 

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Eff said:

 

Well, within the current fiction (https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/1792462364263088/), Humakti make up about 4% of the (adult) population of Sartar, and Babeester Gori make up about 1% of the (adult) population of Sartar, and in a median clan of around 1100-1200 people, there are going to be an average of 50-55 people in those two cults as part of the clan. Even for a small clan of 500, you'd have 5 BG and 20 Humakti on average. So just on the basis of pure numbers, there are clearly a substantial number of people in these cults, enough for there to be actual communities of them even in rural underpopulated parts of Sartar. 

And similarly, Heler, Odayla, and Yinkin rate as minor cults with less than 0.5% of the (adult) population each, Rigsdal doesn't even rate a mention, and while Yelmalio is more common than either, Yelmalio is also, again within the current fiction (https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/1795919117250746/) a regional cult of the Vaantar Sun Dome and Alda-Chur and Alone. Storm Bull is at least common, midway between Humakt and BG. 

And that's one crux here- the visions of Glorantha you two have are not quite what is intended from the Chaosium end of things, and are of course variants... in fairly important ways for what ordinary social existence looks like. 

But another crux here is that the rarity of cults doesn't matter, because player characters are not being produced via random sampling from this imaginary population, they are being created deliberately in accordance with the player's intentions and those of the group and with the knowledge of the setting that's before them. 

I think it's somewhat interesting that Humakt and Babeester Gor are seen as intrinsically prone to min-maxing and needing to be restricted somehow, because it almost implies a kind of yearning for a more balanced Glorantha, though one where the haughty with their trances have been slightly humbled. 

Firstly,  I can't access FB, so I can't read any further than what you wrote. Are those numbers for full initiates status and above? Or includes laity?

However, a quick thought says that said average might be across Sartar, not in each tribe or clan. The Greydogs, being next to the Upland Marsh,  are going to skew that average upwards for Humakt, just as we'd expect to see more BG axes guarding Ernalda temples. I can definitely see clans that wouldn't have either of those Cult members.

This doesn't change the numbers,  but I still think that there needs to be something in the background to motivate the choice , and have an important part of the character.

 

 

11 hours ago, Eff said:

think it's somewhat interesting that Humakt and Babeester Gor are seen as intrinsically prone to min-maxing and needing to be restricted somehow, because it almost implies a kind of yearning for a more balanced Glorantha, though one where the haughty with their trances have been slightly humbled. 

I don't see the need for nerfing or balance.  Just validity.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

This doesn't change the numbers,  but I still think that there needs to be something in the background to motivate the choice , and have an important part of the character.

Agreed.

However, the GM can't reasonably rule that no more than 4% of the PCs may be Hunakti.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

When I get my campaign up and running, if someone wants to min-max their combat monstery and take Humakt or Babeester Gor as their cult they can, and as you say they won't dominate the campaign because the campaign is planned to value other capabilities than just combat monstery. I would prefer them to think a bit about the campaign context and choose a roleplaying conception that is more than combat monster and knowing the likely players, they are likely to do that.

Good points.  Thanks.

For GMs who have dealt with Yelmalian PCs (or other "weaker" cults), what have you done to make those players feel more relevant?  Lots of stuff at night?  Anything else?

Our group is combat heavy.  But it's been pretty easy for GMs to keep the Issaries, LM, and Ernaldan engaged and significant.  Those cults have clear and excellent strengths.

[Shiningbrow]

14 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, the GM can't reasonably rule that no more than 4% of the PCs may be Hunakti.

Oh, I'd never suggest that! After all, you might want a group of Humakti to head into the Marsh, or just be doing some other thing as a group.... eg, mercenaries.

But, just as I'd expect some reasonable backstory for why an Uz and an Aldryami are in the same party, I think it's also reasonable to ask why the BG joined that cult, especially if they're from an area that doesn't normally have those cultists around... and expect her to play that way. (FTR, I get annoyed when the Paladin is more than willing to stay in the party with the Assassin... or in general, the LGs hang with the CEs - without something to really make that connection).

Edited June 4, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it’s fair to say that the Orlanthi shield wall will often be less disciplined and more inclined to charging. But obviously formation fighting is absolutely critical for any medium infantry.

Well, Glorantha mythologically speaking, most Orlanthi should have a high Air/Storm Rune, and that should make them a bit rowdy, and inclined to fight individually - thus lacking the discipline to act in cohort within a phalanx.

I suppose the traits of the Sky/Fire Rune, and even the Truth Rune, could be seen as complimentary to good discipline.

[Martin Dick]

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Your original post, as I quoted, said use one of your rune points to associate into Orlanth.  Not three.

Your corrected solution is to use 3 of your 4 rune points in Orlanth, not Engizi.  Reasonable.  But it's just proof that Orlanth is the far better cult.

"Engezi is a fine cult.  Just be sure to put almost all your effort into Orlanth".  Not persuasive. 

Yes, Engizi is a great cult if you want to play a fisherwoman as the OP indicated, Orlanth is not a particularly good cult if you want to be a fisherwoman. But as the OP stated, they were worried that the Engizi fisherwoman wouldn't be effective in the campaign as a warrior and give the campaign context that's probably a good call. So, my solution gives the character a bit of a boost as warrior/magician (because as you are aware Orlanth is a good warrior/magician cult) and still allows them to play the fisherwoman character they want.

[Tabor]

As someone who's only played RQG, I'd say Erithea is not being brought up enough. She's just Ernalda but worse. However, the real answer is the worst cult is the one I'm currently playing and the best one is the one the person in my group I hate is playing (just kidding I like you all).

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

But it's just proof that Orlanth is the far better cult.

Orlanth is good at movement stuff and storm stuff, but isn't great at water stuff.

Ingizi is better at water stuff than Orlanth.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

15 hours ago, Eff said:

To offer an immediate example from my own experience, I joined a game where the premise involved playing through classic RQ2 and new Jonstown Compendium modules, and so when I created my first character I decided she was going to be a fisherwoman, and the suggestions were Engizi and Orlanth, and I looked at Engizi's spell list and contemplated whether, in a group with assistant shamans and Ernaldans and Argan Argar cultists, it would be a good idea to play a rivergod cultist and make it rain only in the dull literal sense, or play an Orlanth cultist and at least have an emergency lightning reserve for running through the Rainbow Mounds or defending the Munchrooms. 

 

 

A truly great character Eff. Great to see her in play!

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

What about Yelmalio makes his followers such good soldiers? He's clearly a great god for plucky underdogs but why brilliant pike formations

because brillant needs light, and a gold shieldwall with few spirit mp may offer some blindness (aka -75% penalty ?) to the opponents ?

of course it is not raw, but is it really raw conflicting ?

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For GMs who have dealt with Yelmalian PCs (or other "weaker" cults), what have you done to make those players feel more relevant?  Lots of stuff at night?  Anything else?

The key thing about Yelmalio is particular is they are set up to be a meaningful participant in a combat without having to spend any Rune magic points on doing so. Pike, heavy armour and a heavy shield frees you up to spend points on plot-relevant spells like Divination, Dismiss Magic and Find Enemy. You have both Heal Body and Heal Wound, and are within touch range of where the damage is happening. You can use Extension to keep Soul Sight, Sunbright or Catseye up all session.

The phalanx/shield wall rules (imho wrongly) restrict shield walls to 6 people, larger than many adventuring parties. In defiance of that rule, in Varsana's saga, in the fight in Snakepipe Hollow 3 of the pre-generated PCs form a 'phalanx' to guard the corpse of the first one to die. I suspect it would be less artificial to make it a tactical choice where the disadvantages of difficulty in movement, and of being at the end,  are countered by the advantages of being in the middle. There's a video by Lindybeige where he shows how effective a loose shield wall, or line of combat, is in a even a 4 vs 4 fight. Knowing that your enemies are all in front of you is a big advantage.

But even without that rule tweak, a 2 meter pike means that with someone standing in front of you, you can attack from a position where you can't be attacked. And what's more, you are attacking someone who will have to also defend against attacks from the guy in front of you, applying penalties for multiple parries. The guy in front may get the kill, but you can count an assist. 

If you are confident, cast Fanatacism on yourself, and likely get into the territory of reducing their parry chance further.  With no immediate downside, so long as things stay under control.

You have battle as a cult skill. If 'soldier' is your main character concept, you will know where people should be standing to overlap their attacks and guard their flanks. Where a Light Wall will block archery, who is a priority target for Dismiss Magic, where a Multispelled  Demoralise or Slow will disrupt an attack.

Much of that stuff could have been done by anyone else, just like anyone else from whatever cult could have joined the local militia or town guard. But they didn't; you did. And chances are, you are better at it than they would have been if they had.

 

 

[Dissolv]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:28 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For GMs who have dealt with Yelmalian PCs (or other "weaker" cults), what have you done to make those players feel more relevant?  Lots of stuff at night?  Anything else?

A good question!  Maybe the only real one out of all the incessant complaining.

Yelmalio is definitely a crippled god and what he can offer the player is "incomplete" because of that.  However that gives a lot of character and role playing opportunities.  He is the last god standing from the Great Darkness and has the pride of having made it while other gods ran away or died.  He also has the scars.  I have two kinds of players that run Yelmalians, one that wants a god that kicks butt for them and are unhappy with him, and the other who leans into the experience, and is sustained by the lore, and then later the challenge. 

But really, there is actually only one mechanical disadvantage to following Yelmalio -- you don't get Magic to help you kill things.  That's it.    For Rune magic you lack a "super buff" spell, like Sword Trance or True Axe.  You also lose out on the spirit spells of Fire Arrow and Fireblade, which can be a real annoyance, especially for archers.  Lack of outright damage is really the only weakness that this cult has that the player will need to overcome through play.

 

Yelmalio actually comes from different cultures.  Everyone tries to be a heavily armored "Hoplite" Sun Domer type, but you can also be from the Auxiliary class, some of whom are quite interesting skills and culture wise.  This would make them more like a skirmisher, or ranger, or even horse archer.  Check out the excellent Jonstown Compendium work: The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass, p. 135 for details.  Depending on where you are from, you might be a Peltast, archer (Cretan archer style), Bison Rider or other Praxian, horse archer, Charioteer, or "Saird Bowman".  This option is very appealing as gives a lot of freedom to the player as they are not part of the rigid temple hierarchy, plus it sets up a fun role playing dynamic where the auxiliaries are not well appreciated by the haughty Templars whom they loyally serve.  The player I'd been talking about from my Eleven Lights campaign was a Sable Rider auxilliary, and it worked great.

First advantage: The character comes from a culture that teaches you how to fight. In my Glorantha, the Yelmalians emphasize personal skills, and the spirit magic spells: Lantern, Lightwall, Bladesharp, Speedart, Dispel Magic, and Shimmer.  

Lightwall in particular is incredibly powerful if you can keep your friends on the side that can see the other guys, and also keep the enemy on the side who can't see you.  Obviously easier in a mass combat situation with ordered ranks and pre-defined commands for stepping forward in unison.  But multiples of these spells should absolutely cripple the enemy front rank trying to parry/dodge all of those pikes.  I do play this as a -75%. Shimmer adds to that effect, and also helps the auxiliaries as they skirmish around with low armor. 

Bladesharp is the only option for punching through armor, so is absolutely mandatory.  Speedart is in the same boat.  Sometimes the skill boost makes a big difference, particularly for Bladesharp.

The difference is more pronounced between NPCs.  Orlanthi will show up with an eclectic assortment of spirit spells and weapons, while the Yelmalians will show up with identical gear and magic, and an organized plan for how to use them to win.  "Hero" Orlanthi are more powerful than "Hero" Yelmalians, but they have to be.  Rank and file Yelmalians stomp all over rank and file Orlanthi.

When you get into the individualized world of adventuring, the PC Yelmalians should be warned that they are about to lose the advantages that they have enjoyed during "Temple duty".  But Yelmalio has key spells that allow the PC to get out there and quest. 

Offensively: Nada.  Yelmalio lost these powers.

Defensively: Shield -- if in fact being added back, is a big one.  It is straight up a boost to survival.  Heal Body -- the very best heal in the game, and a critical spell to have in your back pocket if you are intent on tangling with the true nasties of Glorantha.

Utility: These revolve around Night Fighting, or at any time when darkness would be a major problem (and at -75%, it should be!)  Catseye is the dominant spell here.  Any kind of night marches, cave crawling, night fighting, battles with trolls -- this is the premier spell.  It wipes out the -75% penalty, allowing the Yelmalian to function in nearly complete darkness.  So those Praxian nomads that you made fun of for following Yelmalio just come back at night and raid you with impunity.  The Broos you are hunting retreated to some natural cave formation?  Yelmalio to the rescue.  Trolls attacking at night?  No problem.  Catseye + Lightwall and they will be running for the hills in no time.  Sunbright is the brute force method for accomplishing daylight whenever, or where ever, but unlike the 12 hour long duration Catseye, it really wants a few points of extension whenever it is used.  Has a very strong anti-Undead bonus feature as well, and serves as a massive beacon in the night, allowing others to find you when that is desired. 

Honestly a skilled Yelmalian player, in a world where the GM regularly imposes darkness penalties instead of always having a super bright moon and luminous lichen in every cave, should utterly own the darkness, commando style.  This is particularly impressive in the hands of a culturally "auxiliary" Yelmalian, as they tend to have stealth and wilderness skills to back it up.   And once the players realize that these conditions exist "for real", they will start to aggressively take advantage of it.  Get ready for even more night adventures -- because the players will lean into any perceived advantage, and -75% is as big of one as you can hope for. 

Other key spells:  Dismiss Magic.  If the other guy has the same Rune points that you do, but more dangerous war magic, then use your points to knock his down.  Our Lhankhor Mhy player did this the most, but for Yelmalio you need to sometimes need get rid of an enemy Shield spell, as even a Shield 2 will often be too much for you to penetrate.  If you have an allied spirit, always have it knocking down your opponent's magics with Dispel Magics.  It makes a huge difference given that you are fighting with a spear that is at best, enhanced with Bladesharp.  As a rule, unlike other gods where you buff buff buff, with Yelmalio you are always trying to tear the combat down to the base character sheet in Rune level vs. Rune level combat.

Finally, my Yelmalian player was able to use Warding spells a couple of times to make a defensive stand, then impede the enemy vision with the Lightwall gambit (which gets dispelled, because it is annoying) to get the enemy to blunder into a Warding 4.   It turns out Warding is magical damage, and works just fine against Telmori.......

 

So for the GM to help a Yelmalian player feel meaningful --

1) Help and association from their community.  That likely means a bit of extra training before being thrown "out there" with the barbarians, specifically spirit magic, and/or possibly a mechanical review of how the game system works if the players are new.  It should also mean that they might formally request aid if working towards a cult aim, and might be able to draw on some auxiliaries.  The Temple community should be aware of their member "out there" trying to do something and should assist at times, unless the player has gone rogue or is exiled, or something like that.

2) Enforce Darkness penalties.  I cannot emphasize this enough.   Glorantha has a rich night time environment, and the only human adventurers who can seamlessly fit into it are the Yelmalians.   They are also the only ones who are likely to be able to tit-for-tat enemies that use darkness magic against the party.  Commanding the power of light is much more meaningful if you have to contend with both the natural cycle of darkness, as well as enemies who try to actively use it against you.  And lets not forget caves.  Those are insanely dark, even with torches.  Even outside of combat, being able to march and track and hunt game at night is a massive advantage in a three dimensional campaign.  If your campaign never has bad weather, always has brightly lit caves, never has tactical obstacles like streams and cliffs to contend with during a "fight", then fix that right away.  Get your players off of well manicured golf greens!  Go for a hike and see what the world is like away up in the hills and forests.  Imagine how six warriors might fight on the trails and lands you are crossing.   Then look at the same places at night.  Somehow they are very different places!  Bronze age man doesn't have electric torches to combat the dark.  How do you think a combat would go, at night, at the place that you see, against enemies that can see in the dark, like trolls, or a lot of chaos?  Envision again, the difference maker that one warrior might make with a Sunbright in the darkness.  Then a lightwall to blind the savage chaos creatures.  Man needs Yelmalio for those situations.  Badly.

3) Play up the different than normal cult associations.  Elves and Dryads favor Yelmalio worshippers.  Ernalda is friendly to them as well (useful for the "in" with the Orlanthi types), and of course there is the whole Solar pantheon.  This can be extremely important if diplomacy and court intrigue sessions are being employed.  And they should be!  It shouldn't all be monster bashing.   Frankly there is nothing Yelmalio cannot do that any other fighting cult can do in those sorts of situations.

4) Finally, as the players grow in power give the Yelmalian an opportunity to earn something, hopefully via Heroquest or great sacrificial deed.  You can help him lean into his strengths (permanent Catseye maybe?) but most players by that time will be looking for more damage.  The Hill of Gold is one of the few published heroquests and is something your players could try to steal back some of Yelmalio's lost power.  Other Heroquest rewards might help (extra impale damage, greater strength for a bigger damage bonus, extra chance to critical)  A more simple route to "fixing" a player following this cult at the higher levels of play is through the acquisition of magic items.  Fallen Star in the Jonstown Compendium: Treasures of Glorantha is one way to go about this.   I have the expectation that all players will seek out magic items anyway. 

That's it, happy Yelmalio-ing!

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Dissolv