Yinkin in society, holy places

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

On the topic of roleplaying later, can an awakened alynx join the cult of Orlanth? It would seem especially appropriate for the companions of rune levels of Orlanth.

I don't think that awakened animals join cults in the same way that humans do. The cult isn't really set up for animals, it's a social organization created by people, to serve society's needs. They may have a relationship with divine or great spirit entities, and they might get magic through that, but it won't be the same. Why not have fun making something up?

[Shiningbrow]

Arachne Solara? As per the temple in Beast Valley...

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/14/2022 at 10:35 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that awakened animals join cults in the same way that humans do. The cult isn't really set up for animals, it's a social organization created by people, to serve society's needs. They may have a relationship with divine or great spirit entities, and they might get magic through that, but it won't be the same. Why not have fun making something up?

Allied spirits are Initiates though, and it seems like splitting hairs if an Allied Spirit alynx can be an initiate but an Awakened alynx can’t. And some cults are explicitly open for awakened animals, like Zola Fel. At the very least, the Awakened alynx can join Yinkin, surely?

I seem to recall that one of the few rules about getting to join the cult of Orlanth is that you breathe.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Allied spirits are Initiates though, and it seems like splitting hairs if an Allied Spirit alynx can be an initiate but an Awakened alynx can’t.

I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. Allied spirits and awakened animals are very different in nature.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

And some cults are explicitly open for awakened animals, like Zola Fel.

Some are, yes, but the presence of an exception implies a rule that there is an exception to. I don't imagine many awakened alynxes join Zola Fel.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Some are, yes, but the presence of an exception implies a rule that there is an exception to. I don't imagine many awakened alynxes join Zola Fel.

Not with that attitude to baths, no.

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Arachne Solara? As per the temple in Beast Valley...

My personal take on The Lady of the Wild is that a decent part of her following are intelligent animals.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Allied spirits are Initiates though, and it seems like splitting hairs if an Allied Spirit alynx can be an initiate but an Awakened alynx can’t.

As @PhilHibbs said, different entity. One is a spirit sent by the god themselves to aid the person. So, the Initiate connection is automatic, and impossible without it. Quite probably, the spirit has never been in a nature-body like an animal, and can be put into other items, so doesn't need any of those other skills.

The Awakened animal is merely an animal that has had its spirit opened up to receiving higher intelligence (and POW and CHA), such that it can be taught spells.

Certainly, I agree that some (many? most?) can join a cult - but it's definitely not an automatic thing. And how would it prove itself to the examiners? Would it really understand what is required and what it's about? (not suggesting it couldn't, just that it's effectively at child level of cultic understanding).

Some animals considered sacred to the cult would certainly be more likely to join the cult (especially if they've been the ones who have given you that awakened animal), but if you're choosing something that's not, I'm not sure the priests will smile greatly upon you.. (more likely give you strange looks). How would the Orlanthi feel about a dog? Or a bat?? Or lizard? that you just happened to have found in the wilderness, shortly after their initial companion died...

[French Desperate WindChild]

yes allied spirits in a beast body is not the same than a beast with its own "spirit"/"soul"/"intelligence"/"what you want"

 

but, for me, an awakened beast is like any other sentient individual. Is a troll able to be initiate ? an elf ? a human ? a griffin ?

What is the difference ?  for me there is none 🙂

 

An alynx will face some difficulties to be initiate to Brother Dog or Telmor, but I don't see why an alynx will not be able to join Yinkin, Orlanth, or any cult friendly to Yinkin. Maybe urbanised temples will see it with some reluctance (and put some difficulties)

 

of course the alynx (or the fish, or the horse, ...) should have good reason to join a cult, as any candidate, but why not ?.

[Shiningbrow]

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but, for me, an awakened beast is like any other sentient individual. Is a troll able to be initiate ? an elf ? a human ?

How many years do they have to wait until they're considered mature enough (a form of sentience) before they're allowed to be fully Initiated into the cult? How many years of effectively being a Lay Member?

[PhilHibbs]

48 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but, for me, an awakened beast is like any other sentient individual.

The Weapons and Equipment rules do not support this conclusion.

p.44:

Quote

Animals of SIZ 4 or smaller
can be awakened as companions, but generally anything
above SIZ 2 is rare. Most larger creatures cannot leave their
temple complexes or sacred places, or their intelligence
begins to fade away.

So awakened animals are evidently very different to independent sentient creatures. Only the very small ones are free to wander around in the world (and even then, linked to their companion). Anything larger is a bit more like a dryad that is bound to a sacred location. And yes, I know, dryads are initiates of Aldrya, but that's a special case (like fish joining Zola Fel) and they aren't free to just join any normal cult.

Awakened Praxian herd animals and herd men are different as they form part of the special Waha herder/herded societal structure.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The Weapons and Equipment rules do not support this conclusion.

yes you are right I make a confusion between sentient and awakened.

 

In fact the W&E rules disturb me, as there are some divine spells to transform the non sentient into sentient beast. The issue is.... I don't see any divine spells in the red book (so that sounds like there is no in glorantha) to do it (praxian is another story, for sure).

 

42 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

How many years do they have to wait until they're considered mature enough (a form of sentience) before they're allowed to be fully Initiated into the cult? How many years of effectively being a Lay Member?

that is a good question, I would say the maturity would follow the "natural" time (aka 1-2 year for a dog, etc...)

but seems a little bit... weird, I agree

[Cassius]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but, for me, an awakened beast is like any other sentient individual. Is a troll able to be initiate ? an elf ? a human ? a griffin ?

What is the difference ?  for me there is none 🙂

Can an alynx, a bat or a dog talk ? Can they speak any language undetstandable by the common priests of a cult? I don't think so (though there are known exceptions, such the Zola Fel priest who can certainly understand some animals of the River).

An awakened animal should be able to communicate spirit-to-spirit. Even in this situation, I think that communication would be through images, sensations, feelings, and not through words. Would this be enough to pass the tests for initiation into a cult? It's doubtful, in most cases.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Cassius

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Can an alynx, a bat or a dog talk ? Can they speak any language undetstandable by the common priests of a cult? I don't think so

Awakened animals can talk (25%). I would assume that goes for other sapient animals as well

[Shiningbrow]

30 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Can an alynx, a bat or a dog talk ? Can they speak any language undetstandable by the common priests of a cult? I don't think so (though there are known exceptions, such the Zola Fel priest who can certainly understand some animals of the River).

An awakened animal should be able to communicate spirit-to-spirit. Even in this situation, I think that communication would be through images, sensations, feelings, and not through words. Would this be enough to pass the tests for initiation into a cult? It's doubtful, in most cases.

W&E book, p44 - "Once awakened, the animal will take a single person as their companion, a process that takes only a few days, they learn their companion’s language, becoming intensely loyal for life."

[Rodney Dangerduck]

35 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Would this be enough to pass the tests for initiation into a cult? It's doubtful, in most cases.

A candidate who is familiar to the temple has only one requirement: be 50% or better in a relevant rune.  Surely a clever (or wealthy) PC could make sure that their awakened friend becomes familiar to the temple.

The ability to speak to the examiner is irrelevant.  If I, or another player, ever run a mute PC (this thread gave me that idea!) they would have no problem initiating into a cult.

 

(For the record, I think the super-minimal requirement is way too easy and open to munchkinnery, but them's the rules, and corrupt bribable priests are all too common in history)

Edited August 16, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Cassius]

15 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Awakened animals can talk (25%). I would assume that goes for other sapient animals as well

In terms of playability, I think it's a good decision. But from a more 'realistic' point of view (if that word has any meaning in this context), I don't think an awakened animal speaks any language at all, unless it is taught one. How could a barely awakened Alynx speak Sartarite, even at 25%?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 minute ago, Cassius said:

In terms of playability, I think it's a good decision. But from a more 'realistic' point of view (if that word has any meaning in this context), I don't think an awakened animal speaks any language at all, unless it is taught one. How could a barely awakened Alynx speak Sartarite, even at 25%?

We had our Alynx speak Stormspeech, which seemed more mythically reasonable.  Also gave the PCs an incentive to work on their Stormspeech. 

I agree that having them speak at all is a bit strange.

[Cassius]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The ability to speak to the examiner is irrelevant.  If I, or another player, ever run a mute PC (this thread gave me that idea!) they would have no problem initiating into a cult.

If this player has learned to speak (because mute persons do speak, if they have learned a proper language) and if the priest can understand them, they will have no problem initiating into a cult. That being said, there are undoubtedly initiations that do not involve questions and answers and oaths pronounced aloud. But I can't see an awakened snail (to use an example from @French Desperate WindChild) passing the initiation tests at Lhankor Mhy's libraries ! 😁

 

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

W&E book, p44 - "Once awakened, the animal will take a single person as their companion, a process that takes only a few days, they learn their companion’s language, becoming intensely loyal for life."

Thanks. I don't (yet) own the W&E book !

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, Cassius said:

But I can't see an awakened snail (to use an example from @French Desperate WindChild) passing the initiation tests at Lhankor Mhy's libraries ! 😁

a snail starts with 85% in bureaucracy. they are sent by the temple to "help" bad customers of the knowledge temple (aka those who have not enough money or reputation) to find the requested information 😛

 

[Akhôrahil]

42 minutes ago, Cassius said:

In terms of playability, I think it's a good decision. But from a more 'realistic' point of view (if that word has any meaning in this context), I don't think an awakened animal speaks any language at all, unless it is taught one. How could a barely awakened Alynx speak Sartarite, even at 25%?

Magic? I mean, surely this is less strange than them being sapient in the first place?

[Cassius]

57 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

a snail starts with 85% in bureaucracy. they are sent by the temple to "help" bad customers of the knowledge temple (aka those who have not enough money or reputation) to find the requested information 😛

 

"Have you got a 27B-6 ?", asked the Lhankorite snail suspiciously.

 

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Magic? I mean, surely this is less strange than them being sapient in the first place?

Not in my opinion. Perhaps because, to me, awakening an animal is a magical operation and learning a language is a cultural one.

 

Does any learning language spell exist in the rules books ? I don't think so. It would be rules breaking because it  would make learning a language too easy for the PCs.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Cassius

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Cassius said:

In terms of playability, I think it's a good decision. But from a more 'realistic' point of view (if that word has any meaning in this context), I don't think an awakened animal speaks any language at all, unless it is taught one. How could a barely awakened Alynx speak Sartarite, even at 25%?

If it happened in a movie, they'd be able to talk right away. I have no problem with a couple of days.

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

We had our Alynx speak Stormspeech, which seemed more mythically reasonable.  Also gave the PCs an incentive to work on their Stormspeech. 

That's a good one.

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that having them speak at all is a bit strange.

I think we're a long way past "a bit strange" already.

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

Does any learning language spell exist in the rules books? I don't think so. It would be rules breaking because it  would make learning a language too easy for the PCs.

Some older materials featured one-use magical scrolls that increased skills or characteristics.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Some older materials featured one-use magical scrolls that increased skills or characteristics.

I believe we’re getting that again, unless they dropped the idea.

[svensson]

As for awakened animals joining cults...

We have RQ3 canon references of mounts joining cults, but it was so unusual as to be specifically referred to. In Strangers In Prax, one of the Lunar Coders wyvern mounts had enough mental ability [CHA, POW and INT] to be initiated into Seven Mothers. This was so unusual that a plaque stating this fact was permanently stitched to its scales.

Now, I grant you that a wyvern isn't an alynx and RQ3 isn't RQG. But Glorantha is world where the wonderful happens on a fairly regular basis [with luck and hard work] and there are more possibilities than here on Earth.

Having said that, I also think that most animals wouldn't be drawn to a human cult as much as they would to a cult specific to their species. An alynx would be drawn to Yinkin, for example, or Hykim and Miyakh. But since the Rune spells of said cults are designed for humans [The Head, Claws, Skin spells], obviously some adjustments will need to be made. I could honestly see a 2 pt Rune spell that gives a pawed animal human hands and the ability to manipulate items for the duration ['Behold, the power of THUMBS!'].

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Some older materials featured one-use magical scrolls that increased skills or characteristics.

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe we’re getting that again, unless they dropped the idea.

 

 

12 hours ago, Cassius said:

Does any learning language spell exist in the rules books ? I don't think so. It would be rules breaking because it  would make learning a language too easy for the PCs.

Making something easy for the PCs is in no way "rules breaking". Not even "rules bending". It's the way it should be!

As for specific spells, nothing that has specifically been mentioned. However, there is the sorcery spell of Total Recall, which could be used with Translation in order to learn a language quicker. Additionally, Logician can be used to have 100%+ in Read/Write. And, any sorcerer worth their salt could fairly easily come up with a Speak (ie, Communication) equivalent. And, just for the giggles, also come up with a spell that allows for faster learning in general. And I can't see why an LM Heroquest wouldn't allow for the same as a HQ ability.