Yinkin in society, holy places

[Jeff]

Most every rural Orlanthi male (and many women) has participating in a hunt, especially on the big-game hunts popular with the warrior elite. That's NOT what the Hunting occupation covers.

People who take the Hunting Occupation are subsistence hunters, not sports hunters. They survive largely through hunting, instead of through herding or farming like the overwhelming majority of farming. They are a Poor Occupation.

Hunters use Animal Lore, Track, and their Missile Weapon skill to take down their prey, as well as small snares and traps (I considered them outside of the Devise skill, but folk can reasonable differ about that). Important animals are going to be deer, boar, rabbits, antelope, etc. 

In Dragon Pass, the gods who favor the subsistence hunter are Foundchild, Odayla, and Yinkin. Although Orlanth, Yelm, and Yelmalio all have their big-game hunting myths, that's sport hunting - like the Mesopotamian royal lion hunts and more akin to battle and duels than hunting. These cults don't participate in the Great Hunt - they hunt for status and prestige, not subsistence.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

Some people pick on a spell and say "Look, this deity has the best spell in the world so makes a better hunter than other deities.

 

Then we shouldn't forget Humakt and Sever Spirit!

Or Yelm's Sunspear...

Whoever's Shooting Star...

[Rodney Dangerduck]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hunters use Animal Lore, Track, and their Missile Weapon skill to take down their prey

Don't you think that's too limiting?  Hunters use whatever works for them (and possibly their friends) to take down their prey.  There are many options other than those three.

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Whoever's Shooting Star...

Well, Yelorna is clearly a good deity for hunters, with Catseye, Solver Track and Shooting Star, plus missile-enhancing spells.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hunters use Animal Lore, Track, and their Missile Weapon skill to take down their prey, as well as small snares and traps (I considered them outside of the Devise skill, but folk can reasonable differ about that). Important animals are going to be deer, boar, rabbits, antelope, etc.

Don't you think that's too limiting?  Hunters use whatever works for them (and possibly their friends) to take down their prey.  There are many options other than those three.

Jeff led that statement by talking about Orlanthi: hunters in and around Sartar. Outside of the Telmori tribal lands and the Colymar and dragonewt wilds there are few wildlands in Sartar resreved for hunting rather than pastue, and a rather limited amount of megafauna or at least decent sized prey that may make use of the spear as a melee weapon rather than a missile.

Wild boars may be the exception, but their main migration route was into upland Tarsh, not the Quivin hills.

There may be occasional dinosaur hunts to prevent herds of these beasts from devastating farmland. These events will be royal hunts, where the subsistence hunters may play a major role as trackers or possibly drivers and get their moment of spotlight in tribal life, but those things don't happen often enough to warrant a place among the companions of most nobles. A few (great) hunters may rise to become companions and tribal or clan champions with greater wealth.

 

All Telmori are hunters, even those serving as royal bodyguards do some hunting on the side, teaming up with their wolf companions. Telmori bodyguard hunting probably is the equivalent to thanes' horse riding to keep a war- or cavalry-steed combat-ready. The Telmori hunt in all likelihood uses the chase, the natural way of hunting for their companions, but javelins may very well shorten a chase.

Hunting dogs are fairly widespread in Glorantha, too, including some of the otherwise more cat-loving Orlanthi, and apparently also many Hsunchen (other than Basmoli or Telmori) where I wouldn't have expected Brother Dog to appear. We know the various roles dogs are used in hunts, whether for tracking, chases, driving prey out of burrows or scaring birds up.

But dogs were both companions and food animals in early agricultural and pastoral cultures, and I am not certain whether they fare much better in Prax or in Hsunchen clans when the hunting is lean. No idea whether eating domesticated dogs corrupts the Hsunchen magical purity, though.

(Dog meat appears to have been something of a staple in Celtic culture, some of which surviving to this day, like dog butchers making sausage in contemporary Austria, the heart of the Hallstatt culture. See also Cu Chulainn's taboo against eating dog meat and his fatal inability to refuse the hospitality of the crone who had some dog goulash in the pot.)

 

Shadowcats never are eaten by their human subjects. The other way around may happen in desperate situations.

[PhilHibbs]

On 7/6/2022 at 10:38 AM, PhilHibbs said:

You can't start out with an awakened shadowcat companion on the heirlooms table.

On 7/6/2022 at 4:38 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Roll a 12.  And maybe push the limits a bit, though it does explicitly mention "such as a cat".

At least, that's what our group did.  Incorrect?

Weapons & Equipment, p.46:

Quote

Alynx: An adventurer cannot choose to have an alynx, but
they often choose to follow and aid hunters, and sometimes
shadow impulsive or adventurous children.

So yes, in the core rules, there is no restriction on awakened alynxes other than only the smallest one third of the population (and what happens if they grow?). W&E does restrict them, which could be a bit of a rug-pull for some. But my instincts weren't far off that awakened alynxes should not be as common as adventurers might like.

I would not take away an awakened alynx from a player that started off with one under the core rules. They just won't be quite as loyal and dependable as most awakened animals.

Edited August 12, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

Wait I’m confused how are they especially restricted? Do you mean in the sense that they chose their partner, so it is up to GM fiat?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

W&E does restrict them, which could be a bit of a rug-pull for some.

W&E didn't exist when our player rolled his Family History.

I agree that awakened Alynxes are overpowered and making them rare is a good idea.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would not take away an awakened alynx from a player that started off with one under the core rules.

I would say.. they haven't actually "started off with one" - during character creation, a whole lot of things happen, including possibly a roll which results in an awakened animal. The player and GM then discuss what that could be - and the GM is well within their rights to say nay to a shadowcat.

So, it's not taking away something the character had. It's not giving it to them in the first place.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

43 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

and the GM is well within their rights to say nay to a shadowcat.

Maybe this advice should be in the GM's Guide.  😞

[PhilHibbs]

23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would not take away an awakened alynx from a player that started off with one under the core rules.

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I would say.. they haven't actually "started off with one" - during character creation, a whole lot of things happen, including possibly a roll which results in an awakened animal. The player and GM then discuss what that could be - and the GM is well within their rights to say nay to a shadowcat.

So, it's not taking away something the character had. It's not giving it to them in the first place.

I mean characters created before W&E was published.

9 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Wait I’m confused how are they especially restricted? Do you mean in the sense that they chose their partner, so it is up to GM fiat?

No, I mean W&E says you can't have an alynx as an awakened companion.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I mean characters created before W&E was published.

OIC...

although, I've always read the "small animal (SIZ 2 or less, such as a cat, a lizard, a bird, etc.) " as excluding shadowcats anyway. OF course, insert your favourite 4 letter initialisation.....

[svensson]

The awakened animal you get on heirloom table is specifically NOT an alynx because alynxes are too large.

The Heirloom Table specifies a SIZ 1 or 2 animal, though it does say cat. Alynxes are SIZ 3-4 according the Bestiary, so they're too large. As for Hunter occupation Alynxes, they're trained hunting animals not an extension of your personal will. The SIZ Equivalencies Table put a SIZ 4 creature at about 40 lbs. This is significantly smaller than a German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois military/police working dog, so adjust your expectations accordingly. Alynxes are hunting companions, not combat animals. They herd prey into the kill zone, track, and otherwise assist a hunter. And even 'just that much' is a Hell of a lot of help!

The intent with the Heirloom table item is provide a friend and a helpful caster -- preferably boosting spells for you rather than attack spells. After all, SIZ 2 doesn't leave a lot of room for hit points. Even having a pet that'll cast Heal 3 on you is a HUGE plus in a fight. The small size of the animal can actually work in its favor. In the flurry of a fight, a small size critter will usually be ignored and can therefore slip into and out of casting range and [hopefully] stay out of melee.

What the Heirloom Table does NOT intend is for you to get an Allied Spirit on the cheap.

Edited August 13, 2022 by svensson

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

although, I've always read the "small animal (SIZ 2 or less, such as a cat, a lizard, a bird, etc.) " as excluding shadowcats anyway.

Me too, but...

56 minutes ago, svensson said:

The awakened animal you get on heirloom table is specifically NOT an alynx because alynxes are too large. The Heirloom Table specifies a SIZ 1 or 2 animal, though it does say cat. Alynxes are SIZ 3-4 according the Bestiary, so they're too large.

...but technically you could have a SIZ 2 alynx, so I can see why people would argue that they could.

56 minutes ago, svensson said:

What the Heirloom Table does NOT intend if for you to get an Allied Spirit on the cheap.

Yep. I would not let an awakened animal join a cult as an initiate, so they're limited to spirit magic only. Or if they are in a cult, it's not a mainstream human cult, and their rune magic is different and not as useful for adventuring. Why would an alynx not be a member of Yinkin? Because the cult writeup we have is for the human cult. Yes, it could worship Yinkin, but through a different mechanism, not a human temple organised the way we are familiar with.

[Scotty]

To clarify:

• Herders & hunters can have an heirloom awakened alynx of SIZ 2 under the Core Rules & Weapons & Equipment. It's a companion, not a trained animal.
• Only hunters, herders, members of the Odayla or Yinkin cult, Orlanth Rune lords or priests or a fortunate / unfortunate child can have an alynx.

TL;DR

Quote

 

Equipment: Cultural weapons (including appropriate missile weapon), herd animals worth 120 L, staff, herding animal (typically a shadowcat or dog).

RuneQuest core rules, Occupations, Herder, page 69

 

Quote

Equipment: Cultural weapons (including appropriate missile weapon), hunting animal (typically a shadowcat or dog), snares, furs worth 120 L.

RuneQuest core rules, Occupations, Hunter, page 69

Quote

One common animal that is not available for purchase are shadowcats (alynxes). Shadowcats are not owned (and thus not available for sale) but permitted by custom and tradition to freely choose their companions and hunting areas.

RuneQuest core rules, Equipment & Wealth, Other Animals, page 411

Note that Weapons & Equipment, repeats part of this and adds children

Quote

Alynx: An adventurer cannot choose to have an alynx, but they often choose to follow and aid hunters, and sometimes shadow impulsive or adventurous children.

Weapons & Equipment, Beasts, Other Animals, page 46

Note that this is a new section, not part of Awakened animals

Herders & hunters in the core rules may have an alynx / shadowcat as a herding / hunting animal. The animal has chosen to follow the herder / hunter, as a companion. It is not a trained animal.

If a herder or hunter receives An awakened small animal from the family heirloom table, they may select a SIZ 2 alynx instead of their herding / hunting animal, or some other small animal and a whatever sized alynx.

Other adventurers can't have an alynx unless, they are members of the Odayla or Yinkin cult, Orlanth Rune lords or priests or a fortunate / unfortunate child.

Awakened alynxes are certainly part of the Yinkin cult (and their 3 points of spirit magic is likely to be cult favoured spirit magic). They certainly have enough POW to start spending it on Rune magic, and could be taught more spirit magic if the hunter is willing to pay. But that's all for roleplaying later...

Edited August 14, 2022 by Scotty
added herders

[PhilHibbs]

Quote

Alynx: An adventurer cannot choose to have an alynx, but they often choose to follow and aid hunters, and sometimes shadow impulsive or adventurous children.

Weapons & Equipment, Beasts, Other Animals, page 46

Note that this is a new section, not part of Awakened animals

Oh, you're right. W&E does not forbid awakened alynxes. Unfortunate wording, I think it should say "Alynxes are not bought and sold, but they often choose to follow and aid hunters." Saying "An adventurer cannot choose..." is what led me to think that it was related to the prior section.

[svensson]

PROTIP: Alynxes are not stupid enough to get into melee just because you ask it to. It's well aware of the odds in a fight between its 25 lbs. self [that's where SIZ 2 tops out] and a SIZ 12+ Pissed Off Biped With Stabby Thing [tm]. It's an alynx, not a bison or other war beast. They're a companion and a hunting partner.

My advice... since you get to pick which spells your awakened animal friend has, select Coordination, Strength, or another of the 'buff' spells [2 pts. each] and either Disruption or Speeddart. Another perfectly good alternative is to have your fuzzy friend memorize Heal 3. There are a lot of other combinations, but in my mind that's the best risk v. reward setup.

Edited August 13, 2022 by svensson

[Shiningbrow]

50 minutes ago, svensson said:

PROTIP: Alynxes are not stupid enough to get into melee just because you ask it to. It's well aware of the odds in a fight between its 25 lbs. self [that's where SIZ 2 tops out] and a SIZ 12+ Pissed Off Biped With Stabby Thing [tm]. It's an alynx, not a bison or other war beast. They're a companion and a hunting partner.

My advice... since you get to pick which spells your awakened animal friend has, select Coordination, Strength, or another of the 'buff' spells [2 pts. each] and either Disruption or Speeddart. Another perfectly good alternative is to have your fuzzy friend memorize Heal 3. There are a lot of other combinations, but in my mind that's the best risk v. reward setup.

Another pro-tip... you should be allowed to spend your money to have your awakened animal learn more spells. (just as you should be able to do so for your character).

(sure, your starting PC may not have much - unless they roll well or take the relevant boons for the cash)

[Joerg]

Herders may get a herding alynx, too. Or a herding dog, if herding alynxes break your immersion.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:02 PM, Jeff said:

Hunters use Animal Lore, Track, and their Missile Weapon skill to take down their prey, as well as small snares and traps (I considered them outside of the Devise skill, but folk can reasonable differ about that). Important animals are going to be deer, boar, rabbits, antelope, etc. 

 

What would you use in place of devise for small snares and traps... survival, perhaps?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What would you use in place of devise for small snares and traps... survival, perhaps?

To be honest, I would handwave it and not require a skill roll. Devise I would use for more complicated constructions.

[Scotty]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Herders may get a herding alynx, too. Or a herding dog, if herding alynxes break your immersion.

Thanks for pointing that out, it completely slipped my mind. I've amended my answer above.

[Scotty]

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Another pro-tip... you should be allowed to spend your money to have your awakened animal learn more spells. (just as you should be able to do so for your character).

(sure, your starting PC may not have much - unless they roll well or take the relevant boons for the cash)

As above:

20 hours ago, Scotty said:

and could be taught more spirit magic if the hunter is willing to pay. But that's all for roleplaying later...

 

[Shiningbrow]

22 minutes ago, Scotty said:

As above:

 

True.. but I was thinking specifically during character creation, and not "all for roleplaying later..."

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 8/13/2022 at 5:30 AM, Scotty said:

Other adventurers can't have an alynx unless, they are members of the Odayla or Yinkin cult, Orlanth Rune lords or priests or a fortunate / unfortunate child.

Awakened alynxes are certainly part of the Yinkin cult (and their 3 points of spirit magic is likely to be cult favoured spirit magic). They certainly have enough POW to start spending it on Rune magic, and could be taught more spirit magic if the hunter is willing to pay. But that's all for roleplaying later...

On the topic of roleplaying later, can an awakened alynx join the cult of Orlanth? It would seem especially appropriate for the companions of rune levels of Orlanth.