Changing cults and Rune pools

[radmonger]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Unless you plan to risk yourself and others by heroquesting upon unknown paths and transform yourself.

So now we are getting somewhere. It is indeed possible to magically transfer allegiance between cults; it is just that normally takes experimantal heroquesting. 

But what we also know, from the Ernalda cult writeup you posted above, is that in some cases this magic has been discovered, and is widely available. The Ernalda cult writeup says that an Ernalda priestess can become an Asrelain priestess without starting again as an initiate with a single RP. How does that happen if not by the use of some such magic? They can't all be doing experimental heroquests.

So all thet needs to be decided is in what cases that magic is known, and what are the conditions for casting it. Do the Hrestoli know some variant for ascending between castes? Do the Lunars know a ritual that lets an devout Issaries trader become an equally devout Irrippi Ontor trader? Do some Orlanthi clans know the secret of the Red Widow Ritual, and others do not? 

Maybe in the official canon Chaoisum Glorantha the answer is 'no' to all of the above. Maybe the stuff about Orlanthi widows dying their hair red and becoming Vingans has been oficially decanonised, and never happens.

To me, that just means that magic has been lost, and awaits rediscovery.

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

I don't think that is right; Orlanthi society, per RQ:G, has 4 sexes and 6 genders. With the genders being orlanthi, ernaldan, vingan, nandan, helering and other.

well... "other" seems a good definition, if you consider helering is not "both" but "alternate gender"

[Jeff]

45 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So now we are getting somewhere. It is indeed possible to magically transfer allegiance between cults; it is just that normally takes experimantal heroquesting. 

But what we also know, from the Ernalda cult writeup you posted above, is that in some cases this magic has been discovered, and is widely available. The Ernalda cult writeup says that an Ernalda priestess can become an Asrelain priestess without starting again as an initiate with a single RP. How does that happen if not by the use of some such magic? They can't all be doing experimental heroquests.

So all thet needs to be decided is in what cases that magic is known, and what are the conditions for casting it. Do the Hrestoli know some variant for ascending between castes? Do the Lunars know a ritual that lets an devout Issaries trader become an equally devout Irrippi Ontor trader? Do some Orlanthi clans know the secret of the Red Widow Ritual, and others do not? 

Maybe in the official canon Chaoisum Glorantha the answer is 'no' to all of the above. Maybe the stuff about Orlanthi widows dying their hair red and becoming Vingans has been oficially decanonised, and never happens.

To me, that just means that magic has been lost, and awaits rediscovery.

 

 

 

With Ernalda and Asrelia, it is that the Earth religion recognises them as different stages in the same goddess. So quite different from what you are describing with Vinga.

[radmonger]

39 minutes ago, Jeff said:

With Ernalda and Asrelia, it is that the Earth religion recognises them as different stages in the same goddess.

You mean like how Barntar is also recongnised to be Orlanth,  Ond so is  Vinga. Irripi Ontor is also Issaries, Than is also Atyar, and Yelmalio is also Yelm? How many gods are there actually that don't have close kin that share some portion of their identity?

As I see it, that kind of in-world mythic justification is the thing that game rules should support and reflect. Rather than the rules declaring a thing as impossible, and then in another part (the cults book) saying nevertheless, it actually happens. Some gods are connected at a deep ernough level that transfer between cults is possible. Sometimes 'possible' means a unknown and dangerous heroquest, sometimes it means talking to the High Priestess. For others, such transfer is genuinely impossible; any attempted heroquest would fail, or break the world[1].

You do bring up a good point that RQ:G has, with ratings in runes, an existing mechanism will affect how reliably you can cast magic associated iin runes you are weak in. If you have little storm or movement in your soul, then you are not going to be suited to Vinga. That seems to me to be sufficient rules.

[1] Some say this has already hapenned.

 

[Jeff]

Barntar is the Plow God. He's usually worshiped as part of Orlanth Thunderous. Sometimes he is worshiped autonomously, but that really only happens where the Orlanth Thunderous cult is not present. And as a result, special rules apply:

An initiate of Barntar may become an initiate of Orlanth simply by sacrificing 1 point of POW to establish a link with Orlanth Thunderous. All the initiate’s Rune points with Barntar are added to those of Orlanth, and for that initiate, Barntar becomes effectively a subcult of Orlanth Thunderous.

[Jeff]

But again, your example is not these special cases where two cults are so incredibly associated that they can be both subcults or autonomous cults. You are talking about an Ernaldan joining Vinga. Vinga is NOT closely associated with Ernalda, as she is a very different mythic archetype. She's Orlanth, not an aspect of Ernalda. If an Ernalda initiate joins the Vinga cult she needs to create a new Rune point pool. 

It is as simple as that.

[Darius West]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is as simple as that.

Agreed.  Vinga may be Ernalda's daughter, but she's daddy's girl thru and thru.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

Maybe the stuff about Orlanthi widows dying their hair red and becoming Vingans has been oficially decanonised, and never happens.

by the way I consider it as canon (is it ?), however I never read that becoming Vingans is "transfer all my ernaldan runepool in orlanth runepool".

I always have understood it by "being initiate of Vinga" without any information about the rest (power in the new cult, what happens to the ernalda relationship, etc..)

The only thing I have in mind is the possibility for these women to stop their Orlanth relationship - initiate status - once the revenge (or the word you want) is done without any reprisal from Orlanth

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Agreed.  Vinga may be Ernalda's daughter, but she's daddy's girl thru and thru.

She's not even Ernalda's daughter in most stories. She's like Athena, born straight out of the Thunder God. Or she's Orlanth transformed. So hard to tell with Air deities!

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

by the way I consider it as canon (is it ?), however I never read that becoming Vingans is "transfer all my ernaldan runepool in orlanth runepool".

I always have understood it by "being initiate of Vinga" without any information about the rest (power in the new cult, what happens to the ernalda relationship, etc..)

The only thing I have in mind is the possibility for these women to stop their Orlanth relationship - initiate status - once the revenge (or the word you want) is done without any reprisal from Orlanth

Of course it is still canon. It means that widows of a community joined the Vinga cult. 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

...And as a result, special rules apply:

An initiate of Barntar may become an initiate of Orlanth simply by sacrificing 1 point of POW to establish a link with Orlanth Thunderous. All the initiate’s Rune points with Barntar are added to those of Orlanth, and for that initiate, Barntar becomes effectively a subcult of Orlanth Thunderous.

Seems quite generous, and the munchkins (dontcha just hate 'em) would see that as a great way to get a bigger variety of spells than any other cult - if you could do that with Yinkin or Odayla for example!

[soltakss]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:40 PM, Akhôrahil said:

On 7/19/2022 at 2:39 PM, David Scott said:

Fortunately Re-Life Sickness isn't part of RQG, and as part of HeroQuest didn't affect everyone.

I know it isn't in the rules, but is it gone from the setting altogether?

If you like it, give it as a Passion to those Resurrected lots of times.

I never liked the idea, personally.

 

[JRE]

I get the impression people obsess too much about runepools, which IMG means one point of magic that you renew normally once every season, unless you are a priest in a big temple, where you can renew more often.

In the case of an orlanthi clan, lacking warriors, it will be much more important the weapon training to your childless widows and teaching them combat spirit magic (Orlanth's), even without associates in a small clan. This is Orlanth's spirit magic that Ernalda does not have, and certainly it looks like a warrior's must have, together with the Strength, Heal and Demoralize that Ernalda also has:

Bladesharp, Detect Enemies, Disruption, Fanaticism, Mobility, Protection.

That is enough benefit for a War clan, without obsessing about 1 point Ernalda and 1 point Vinga's runepools. As for dedicated time and tithe, tithe needs surplus, and a War clan seldom will have those, and time is just the time spent learning combat skills and combat spells. 

[Gray Mouser]

Quote

Maybe in the official canon Chaoisum Glorantha the answer is 'no' to all of the above. Maybe the stuff about Orlanthi widows dying their hair red and becoming Vingans has been oficially decanonised, and never happens.

The fact that the change of cult is "possible" does not mean that it is an "easy" thing. If we stick to trivial examples, let’s imagine that our Ernalda initiate is an expert in cutting her children’s hair (she is the best hairdresser in the town). Following the massacre of her family she becomes Vingan: her skill "cut the hair" does not transform to "use broadsword". Same for RP, IMHO. And probably she won’t be as badass as another Vingan who dyed her hair red from her first initiation, twenty years ago. "C'est la vie".

Edited July 26, 2022 by Gray Mouser

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 7/21/2022 at 12:23 AM, JRE said:

I get the impression people obsess too much about runepools, which IMG means one point of magic that you renew normally once every season, unless you are a priest in a big temple, where you can renew more often.

In the case of an orlanthi clan, lacking warriors, it will be much more important the weapon training to your childless widows and teaching them combat spirit magic (Orlanth's), even without associates in a small clan. This is Orlanth's spirit magic that Ernalda does not have, and certainly it looks like a warrior's must have, together with the Strength, Heal and Demoralize that Ernalda also has:

Bladesharp, Detect Enemies, Disruption, Fanaticism, Mobility, Protection.

That is enough benefit for a War clan, without obsessing about 1 point Ernalda and 1 point Vinga's runepools. As for dedicated time and tithe, tithe needs surplus, and a War clan seldom will have those, and time is just the time spent learning combat skills and combat spells. 

OTOH, learning several of those spirit magic spells requires weeks from both the recent convert and a trainer.  Without some special mass spirit magic learning rules, there's little chance that a whole clan of widows could learn that battle magic in a reasonable amount of time.  In a way, it's actually easier to just sacrifice a few points of POW to get several good combat rune spells.

However, I agree with your overall approach.  Train up their shield and 1H weapon skills, teach Bladesharp, (maybe Mobility) and get the widows to either learn Protection or Earth Shield (which Ernalda has, awesome)

Out of interest, what 1 point Vingan rune spell should the widows learn?  Shield is never bad, but my (full time) Vingan warrior would highly recommend Leap.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[radmonger]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:44 AM, Jeff said:

Your Rune point pool represents your connection with THAT deity. If you have a big pool, that represents that you are deeply and intimately connected with that deity. If you join another cult - even an associated cult - that Rune pool does not transfer over to the new cult (except in a very few exceptions which are the exceptions that prove the rule). They are different gods with different magical secrets after all.

 

This is the thing I still have a problem is. That explanation says that the spells are associated with a deity. But the rules clearly imply that spells come from a cult. And those are not the same thing, because of the cult association rules.

For example, to return to the case where an Orlanthi becomes a full-time Lawspeaker late in life. I don't see that such a person would in any way consider themselves changing religion, rejecting any part of their upbringing, or doing something other than what society expects of them. Naturally, as it became apparent this was going to be their life path, they would first learn some Lhankhor Mhy magic at the shrine in the Orlanth temple.  But, by the rules, when they actually graduate from the wider Orlanth cult to become a  Lhankor Mhy specialist, they not only also lose access to those Orlanth spells available to Lhankhor Mhy by association, they lose access to the Lhankhor Mhy spells they previously knew. With only 2-3 point of rune magic, this might represent almost all the magic they knew.

It would really make a lot more sense to have the interpretation and rules match, where spells come from a deity, and a rune pool comes from a cult, in particular worship at a temple. But spells are not tied to a rune pool; you never know the same spell twice by two different paths. instead all spells can in principle be cast from any pool. It is just that they are one-use if cast from a pool associated with a cult that cannot renew them[1].

So if your local temple switches it's worship to a new god, as in Elmal/Yelmalio, and you stay with it, you keep your rune pool, but may lose reusable access to some spells.

If you switch from Yinkin-as-Orlanth-subcult to Yinkin-as-deep-hunter, making it impossible for you to return to the clan regularly, you do not lose access to any Yinkin secrets, only to the deeper secrets Orlanth does not share with his brother.

Finally, for whatever exceptional cases like Barntar and Asrelia  exist, then have rituals exist that allow the rune pool to maintain its full value when graduating between a specific pair of closely-related cults.

 

[1] And some spells may be forbidden, in that they detectably corrupt your Rune Pool in some way that will show up at the next Holy Day and cause questions to be asked...

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, radmonger said:

It would really make a lot more sense to have the interpretation and rules match, where spells come from a deity, and a rune pool comes from a cult

not for me 🙂

my interpretation is when you (gameplay) cast a spell, using your rune pool, you call the power of the god who answers* (story telling) your request

your rune pool is your (mundane character) ability, energy to open a temporary gate to the god/other plane and let the divine power apply on the mundane world.

That is not your power, not your priest or temple power (so not your cult power), but your god power.

If you want your own power, become a hero and get hero powers / abilities.

That's why you have to worship your god to restore your rune pool. You have to "re energize" your link with it, to thank it for what it did, etc.

 

then my interpretation and the rules match. The potential issue is "associated cult & runepool". I consider that the spell "given" by the associated cult is, technically a spell known by your own god. So you use your god runepool as if it was your god's spell.

 

* how the god answers is other interpretation (some consider that you become your god/avatar, some that your god takes more or less your place temporary, I personaly consider this part as energy sent from your god through yourself)

[svensson]

Were it my table and this came up, my ruling on transferring from one cult to another would probably look like this:

-- The two deities have to be within the same pantheon

-- The two deities must share a Rune

-- The character who is making a hierarchical transition [say, an Ernalda Earth Temple Queen 'retiring' to Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia] should initiate into the associated cult prior to the transition, meet the skill requirements [Cult Lore, Worship of the associated deity, etc.], and meet any special Spirit Magic requirements[for example, a Yelm worshiper 'transferring' to Yelmalio would have to forget any spell with Fire]

If those requirements are met, then I would agree to the transfer of Rune Point pools, with the proviso that any special cult Rune spells become one-use and the new transferee would have to then sacrifice for the special Rune spells of the new cult as normal. For example, the transferring Yelmite's Sureshot would become one-use and he would have to sacrifice anew for Sunbright.

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I consider that the spell "given" by the associated cult is, technically a spell known by your own god. So you use your god runepool as if it was your god's spell.

That would seem to imply that if a Yinkin worshipper learns a Yinkin spell at a Yinkin shrine within an Orlanth cult temple, that does not actually involve any kind of a link with Yinkin; its all Orlanth. The priest dressed up in a cat mask is not dressed up as Yinkin, but as Orlanth wearing a cat mask.

That doesn't seem to me plausible as anyone's perception of what is going on. Orlanth is clearly not a monotheistic cult; if you look at any description of Orlanthi cult practice, like the Prince of Sartar web comic scene with the 'uncles', you see people taking on the roles of multiple gods. The relations Orlanth has with other deities are absolutely key to his mythology and magic. Polytheistic theism is all about personal relations _between_ communities of gods and men, not the abstract exchange of Rune essence between isolated individuals. To a typical male Orlanthi,  Ernalda is surely regarded as a deity to be related to on a personal level, if rarely understood completely. And certainly not merely as an abstract source of some subset of the powers Orlanth wields[1].

[1] though some variant of that is no doubt practiced by some group of strongly western-influenced Storm-descended henotheists somewhere...

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Orlanth is clearly not a monotheistic cult; if you look at any description of Orlanthi cult practice, like the Prince of Sartar web comic scene with the 'uncles', you see people taking on the roles of multiple gods

you are right it is not a monotheistic cult

however that not because you are polytheist that you are initiate to the secret of all the gods of your pantheon.

Do you think that the uncle with yelm mask has any knowledge of yelm's cult ? Do you think the uncle with genert mask is able to communicate with genert the dead ? does any one of these uncles is able to "cast a spell" from the gods they "play" for the ceremony ?

 

the point is you are initiate from your god, you create a relationship with him.

You just believe in all those gods, you may have faith, you may have devotion, if you are not initiate, you have not any personal relationship with them. Your relationship is then only via the community, no personal power expected, just community blessing.

 

[svensson]

Initiation establishes a personal link to one's deity. Because of this, the initiate must not only make the god/dess happy, but the cult hierarchy as well. This is an exercise of both divine faith and human politics. There's a lot of devout worshipers in Glorantha that pissed off their cult leadership and don't get cult benefits they're clearly entitled to.

For example, if you're an Orlanth worshiper and you're playing patty-cake with the Cult of the Seven Mothers while your Orlanth cult is being actively suppressed, it doesn't matter how many Rune Points you have or what other qualifications you have... you will NOT advance in that cult so long as the Chief Priest is pissed off at you.

Also remember that many cults are clan affairs. The above Orlanthi initiate who was denied elevation in one temple would have to start all over socially speaking to gain enough status in another temple to elevate to Rune status. The point is that a worshiper must not only do the right things, they must be seen doing the right things, and they must do those things to the satisfaction of their superiors.

This is what that whole 'convince the examiners' thing is about.

But it will still take multiple seasons of consistent residency, worship attendance, and loyalty [that is, actually taking an appropriate Passion] to even get to the point of being examined in the first place. Rune Status isn't like shopping for the best price of a pair of sandals. Loyalty and service to the temple and the clan that runs it counts for at least as much as any other qualification.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, svensson said:

Initiation establishes a personal link to one's deity. Because of this, the initiate must not only make the god/dess happy, but the cult hierarchy as well. This is an exercise of both divine faith and human politics. There's a lot of devout worshipers in Glorantha that pissed off their cult leadership and don't get cult benefits they're clearly entitled to.

For example, if you're an Orlanth worshiper and you're playing patty-cake with the Cult of the Seven Mothers while your Orlanth cult is being actively suppressed, it doesn't matter how many Rune Points you have or what other qualifications you have... you will NOT advance in that cult so long as the Chief Priest is pissed off at you.

Also remember that many cults are clan affairs. The above Orlanthi initiate who was denied elevation in one temple would have to start all over socially speaking to gain enough status in another temple to elevate to Rune status. The point is that a worshiper must not only do the right things, they must be seen doing the right things, and they must do those things to the satisfaction of their superiors.

This is what that whole 'convince the examiners' thing is about.

But it will still take multiple seasons of consistent residency, worship attendance, and loyalty [that is, actually taking an appropriate Passion] to even get to the point of being examined in the first place. Rune Status isn't like shopping for the best price of a pair of sandals. Loyalty and service to the temple and the clan that runs it counts for at least as much as any other qualification.

yep important point when you play the social interaction, when pc are not only adventurers/looters but members of the world

however (houserule, my own glorantha):
 

Spoiler

as I consider a god able to refuse the initiate (or more) request, even if the roll is successful, when the initiate ask for some "bad" thing (bad from the god's perspective, for example Humakt will not severe the spirit of a baby  except if there is a good good good reason), I consider to that a god is able to detect a very devout initiate (some critic rolls, roleplay, sacrifice, pure devotion deeds, etc...) and is able to bless her with the same abilities a rune priest or rune lord has

 

so img, I would say there are two branches

1) your social status, you are the priest, you are the hight priest, etc ...

2) your runic status, the god gives you the benefits of the priest.

of course a lot of "social" priests are rune priest too

but some priests are not (for example they don't fit yet all the qualification, or they did some wrong things but they are here, they lead the ceremonies, etc...)

and few people would be just social initiate but runic priest

 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

However (houserule, my own glorantha):

  Hide contents

... for example Humakt will not severe the spirit of a baby ... 

 

Your Glorantha varying is fine... but that's a big change. It's very well established that the god has no say whatsoever. To me, that kind of thing is handled by a huge honour penalty (plus whatever mundane social consequences are appropriate). You don't get more "helpless unarmed noncombatant" than a baby.

[French Desperate WindChild]

41 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 It's very well established that the god has no say whatsoever.

don't know why, as a god is able to answer mundane question (divination, etc) able to decide for DI (yelmalio, old sun dome temple story) etc...

For me it is more a game design  choice : some players / gm would not appreciate or not know how to play that rune spell is not spell but a "prayer" the GM must choose to answer or not

Don't like the idea that a god* is a resource, but I don't consider the rules must follow me, that's a taste and probably too many people would be disturbed by my way (even if, in more than 90%, the spell is cast, of course, the point is not an opposition between GM and players).

 

* for me the 3 magic ways are ; spirit = you order weak entity to do what you want, divine = you pray strong entity to do what you want, sorcery you manipulate energies to obtain what you want

[Jeff]

Rune magic is described in great detail on pages 313-315 of the core rules. When an adventurer casts a spell, they act as the deity.