Alynx awakened companions

[PhilHibbs]

So: you can have an awakened alynx as long as it is SIZ 2 or 1. 1D6 is a rather unrealistic size range for a creature, unless you see alynxes as like modern dogs that have separated into multiple breeds with wildly different traits. I don't see why not, some clans might have small striped alynxes and others might have big spotted ones or medium black ones. 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

PROTIP: Alynxes are not stupid enough to get into melee just because you ask it to. It's well aware of the odds in a fight between its 25 lbs. self [that's where SIZ 2 tops out] and a SIZ 12+ Pissed Off Biped With Stabby Thing [tm]. It's an alynx, not a bison or other war beast. They're a companion and a hunting partner.

This is a self-solving problem. The adventurer gets their alynx to attack, it gets cut in half, problem solved. Dropping on an opponent to surprise-attack them might work.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

My advice... since you get to pick which spells your awakened animal friend has, select Coordination, Strength, or another of the 'buff' spells [2 pts. each] and either Disruption or Speeddart. Another perfectly good alternative is to have your fuzzy friend memorize Heal 3. There are a lot of other combinations, but in my mind that's the best risk v. reward setup.

Strength is ok, it's the equivalent of +1D4 through wiping out the damage bonus so on average 2.5 points of damage for 2 points. Slightly better than Clawsharp, and affects both claws. Interesting question: does the Rip attack just need one casting of Clawsharp to get bonus to hit and damage, or should it need to cast it twice?

Or should one casting of Clawsharp affect all of an animal's claws?

Edited August 13, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Bill the barbarian]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So: you can have an awakened alynx as long as it is SIZ 2 or 1. 1D6 is a rather unrealistic size range for a creature, unless you see alynxes as like modern dogs that have separated into multiple breeds with wildly different traits. I don't see why not, some clans might have small striped alynxes and others might have big spotted ones or medium black ones. 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Yep, exactly what we did for our shaman who got an heirloom pet and wanted an alynx. Any stats outside of the range of the heirloom table got capped or negotiated. Do I remember this right @Nozbat?

 

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

This is a self-solving problem. The adventurer gets their alynx to attack, it gets cut in half, problem solved. Dropping on an opponent to surprise-attack them might work.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Works for me as GM

 

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Or should one casting of Clawsharp affect all of an animal's claws?

What would one casting of Bladesharp or Bludgeon do to a dual sword wielding storm bull or a two mace wielding Troll (oooo bad ass!)?

[PhilHibbs]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What would one casting of Bladesharp or Bludgeon do to a dual sword wielding storm bull or a two mace wielding Troll (oooo bad ass!)?

We have a dual wielding duck Humakti in our party and she has to cast it separately on each sword.

[svensson]

[sighs as people intentionally miss the point and parse missing it for an entire page]

The point is to keep your pet weasel out of combat. It's intelligent and can reason. It can judge the odds and decide that getting into melee would be a Very Bad Idea. Clawsharp on something that can only do 1-2 pts of damage to start with is a complete waste of Magic Points and puts your furry at entirely too much risk.

Let me put this another way: You're using a friend like a tool... something to be used and if necessary discarded for the sake of your adventure goals. This is a good attempt at meeting the definition of min/max power gaming nonsense.

NOW am I making my point?

[Bill the barbarian]

Look! If we were going to parse a good awakened pet, I would have to mention baboon... right cousin monkey? Oops, topic drift detected... <alert> whoop, whoop, whoop!

Edited August 13, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I'm with @svensson: With a species max POW of 28, the alynx will quickly become the best spellcaster in the party.  Using them in combat is idiotic and criminal negligence.  Use them as buffers or befuddlers.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So: you can have an awakened alynx as long as it is SIZ 2 or 1. 1D6 is a rather unrealistic size range for a creature, unless you see alynxes as like modern dogs that have separated into multiple breeds with wildly different traits.

HeroWars definitely supported this notion. Murni is a mouser, Gavren is a large hunting cat that can bring down a roe deer.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Or should one casting of Clawsharp affect all of an animal's claws?

This was a real question in a recent game where the players played their shadowcats instead. My ruling was that each fore claw had to be buffed separately, but that you only needed one for the Rake (despite technically both rear claws being involved).

Edited August 13, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

[sighs as people intentionally miss the point and parse missing it for an entire page]

The point is to keep your pet weasel out of combat. It's intelligent and can reason. It can judge the odds and decide that getting into melee would be a Very Bad Idea. Clawsharp on something that can only do 1-2 pts of damage to start with is a complete waste of Magic Points and puts your furry at entirely too much risk.

Let me put this another way: You're using a friend like a tool... something to be used and if necessary discarded for the sake of your adventure goals. This is a good attempt at meeting the definition of min/max power gaming nonsense.

NOW am I making my point?

I don't think anyone here is arguing anything different. But everyone has the possibility of having to get involved in combat sometimes, so it does bear thinking about the options when it does happen. Would your friend let you get killed if they could do something about it?

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Look! If we were going to parse a good awakened pet, I would have to mention baboon... right cousin monkey?

Praxian giant baboons are a playable race, not an awakened animal. But Cousin Monkey does fit a similar role, he's not a front line fighter. Then again neither is Vishi Dunn.

[Bill the barbarian]

Can not recall who told me this or if a saw here in a thread (betcha @Scottyhad a hand in it) but I have been running the pre-gens for about 5 years for demoes and cons online and Cousin Monkey’s status came up as a boon companion (may even be in one of the bios). 

[g33k]

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

... Cousin Monkey’s status came up as a boon companion (may even be in one of the bios). 

...

and you just had to propagate that fowl canard!

You...  you... you... barbarian, you!
 

[Bill the barbarian]

He ain’t no duck! Foul or otherwise!
While I—like all others that are made of sugar and spice and everything nice—am mos' def a barbarian!

Edited August 14, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I'm with @svensson: With a species max POW of 28, the alynx will quickly become the best spellcaster in the party.  Using them in combat is idiotic and criminal negligence.  Use them as buffers or befuddlers.

Except... on the Heirlooms table, it states very clearly not only the max of SIZ 2, but also the POW of 3D6... i.e., not the typical alynx POW...

So, obviously some fudging is going on (i.e.,  houseruling).

12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

14 hours ago, svensson said:

My advice... since you get to pick which spells your awakened animal friend has, select Coordination, Strength, or another of the 'buff' spells [2 pts. each] and either Disruption or Speeddart. Another perfectly good alternative is to have your fuzzy friend memorize Heal 3. There are a lot of other combinations, but in my mind that's the best risk v. reward setup.

Strength is ok, it's the equivalent of +1D4 through wiping out the damage bonus so on average 2.5 points of damage for 2 points

I presumed that @svensson was having the spells cast on the player, not itself... And was clarified a bit later. Keep kitty away from the pointy sticks

[svensson]

40 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... on the Heirlooms table, it states very clearly not only the max of SIZ 2, but also the POW of 3D6... i.e., not the typical alynx POW...

So, obviously some fudging is going on (i.e.,  houseruling).

I presumed that @svensson was having the spells cast on the player, not itself... And was clarified a bit later. Keep kitty away from the pointy sticks

Well, the key word is 'awakened'... the critter has full INT and POW [which DOES NOT mean that your friend isn't stupid or weak-willed... you can have an 'awakened' animal with an INT and POW of 8....].

And when folks got to talking about 'Ironclaw' [Bladesharp for natural weapons] and rake attacks, I had the impression folks were talking about the animal not the human. If I was mistaken on that, my bad.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... on the Heirlooms table, it states very clearly not only the max of SIZ 2, but also the POW of 3D6... i.e., not the typical alynx POW...

So, obviously some fudging is going on (i.e.,  houseruling).

Sure, you can have something when you start, just not something too powerful.

For a game that prides itself on not being balanced, that kind of thing annoys me a bit.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Sure, you can have something when you start, just not something too powerful.

For a game that prides itself on not being balanced, that kind of thing annoys me a bit.

I don't think the "3D6 POW" was written with the intention of "we must cap the POW of unusual creatures that adventurers might want that are higher, because of game balance".

Edited August 14, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Sure, you can have something when you start, just not something too powerful.

For a game that prides itself on not being balanced, that kind of thing annoys me a bit.

Like @PhilHibbs said, I don't think it's so much about 'balance', but more about "if you don't put a limit on it, munchkins gonna munchkin". "It doesn't say I can't have X, so...".

I see it somewhat as character stats being 3D6... why not just give everyone 18s and a couple of 21s??? It's not about 'balance', but being more realistic (if that's the right word)
 

[svensson]

The key point here is that the animal companion is an ALLY and a free thinking being not an embodied Allied Spirit with a cult duty to you. You can't use it's POW or MP any old way you want. You ASK your FRIEND for help, you don't give it orders. And just like any friend, if you treat it too badly your friend can tell you to piss off and head for Wild Temple where it'll get some respect.

Munchkins may try and munchkin, but good referees have a whole repertoire of consequences for that bullshit.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

The key point here is that the animal companion is an ALLY and a free thinking being not an embodied Allied Spirit with a cult duty to you. You can't use it's POW or MP any old way you want. You ASK your FRIEND for help, you don't give it orders. And just like any friend, if you treat it too badly your friend can tell you to piss off and head for Wild Temple where it'll get some respect.

Munchkins may try and munchkin, but good referees have a whole repertoire of consequences for that bullshit.

Who is saying these things that you appear to be arguing against? Is someone deleting munchkin posts?

[svensson]

44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Who is saying these things that you appear to be arguing against? Is someone deleting munchkin posts?

@Shiningbrow had commented 'munchkins gonna munchkin' in the post above mine.

[Bill the barbarian]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Like @PhilHibbs said, I don't think it's so much about 'balance', but more about "if you don't put a limit on it, munchkins gonna munchkin". "It doesn't say I can't have X, so...".

I believe my comment about setting the bar at capping stats according to the heirlooms parameters set out in char-gen and comparing that wth the alynx parameters where possible and negotiating what differences the player and GM will still have remains relevant. Yeah it’s HRing but it it doing so with the participation of the table... that can not be bad.

Note

As a former player of mine once said, I have no probs with fiats. I just like to limit them to areas I just can not stomach. After all it’s my table too!

6 hours ago, svensson said:

The key point here is that the animal companion is an ALLY and a free thinking being not an embodied Allied Spirit with a cult duty to you. You can't use it's POW or MP any old way you want. You ASK your FRIEND for help, you don't give it orders. And just like any friend, if you treat it too badly your friend can tell you to piss off and head for Wild Temple where it'll get some respect.

 

Hm, i am sure that is not what PhilHibbs would advocate having followed his comments for a long time. But he can tell us I am wrong if he wishes.  I did miss the thread this one came from (and it sounds like I am lucky) so I do not know the pedigree of the disagreement but I do not see anyone asking in this thread that pets/awakened animals/servant beast/guard or war beasts otherwise know as the species Alynx be treated as other then they are here, and of course should anyone do so.. well, of course, you are correct good sir. . It seems all that all denizens of this thread are exploring what the critters can do (RAWish...)... If I am wrong wrong let me know (and be prepared to face the just wrath of svennson 😞)...

Let me throw in a partial caveat here. Some old timers will equate awakened animals to the familiars they resemble from RQ2 just to confuse the issue. Again, have not read the other thread and if it is angry I will stay here. 

 

Cheers

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

The key point here is that the animal companion is an ALLY and a free thinking being not an embodied Allied Spirit with a cult duty to you. You can't use it's POW or MP any old way you want. You ASK your FRIEND for help, you don't give it orders. And just like any friend, if you treat it too badly your friend can tell you to piss off and head for Wild Temple where it'll get some respect.

Munchkins may try and munchkin, but good referees have a whole repertoire of consequences for that bullshit.

Well, yes. I totally agree with your first paragraph.

But, having a ruling that fairly strongly indicates - or just plainly and clearly states - a player can't have something goes down a lot better than GM fiat just saying 'no'.

[svensson]

20 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, yes. I totally agree with your first paragraph.

But, having a ruling that fairly strongly indicates - or just plainly and clearly states - a player can't have something goes down a lot better than GM fiat just saying 'no'.

Absolutely!

But all too many PCs tend to use NPCs as tools not people. I try very hard to disabuse the PCs of that notion whenever I encounter it.

I don't even buy the 'my character has done that [extremely risky action] before' excuse. NPCs are NOT player characters. NPCs have more sense than go poking sticks into dark caves to see how many broo come out. NPCs don't risk their lives on excessively-high-risk-but-only-medium-reward endeavors. They leave all that 'Hero shit' to player characters. So no, Player Character Bob, the kid you hired to look after your horses IS NOT gonna follow your voice into a mysterious cave complex to cast Heal 2 on you unless you give him a VERY [i.e. convincing and lucrative] reason to do so.

[Shiningbrow]

33 minutes ago, svensson said:

Absolutely!

But all too many PCs tend to use NPCs as tools not people. I try very hard to disabuse the PCs of that notion whenever I encounter it.

I don't even buy the 'my character has done that [extremely risky action] before' excuse. NPCs are NOT player characters. NPCs have more sense than go poking sticks into dark caves to see how many broo come out. NPCs don't risk their lives on excessively-high-risk-but-only-medium-reward endeavors. They leave all that 'Hero shit' to player characters. So no, Player Character Bob, the kid you hired to look after your horses IS NOT gonna follow your voice into a mysterious cave complex to cast Heal 2 on you unless you give him a VERY [i.e. convincing and lucrative] reason to do so.

And they certainly don't have the same motivations (passions, cult affiliations, cultural affiliations) as the PCs.

And they certainly aren't psychic or in a telepathic bond, so any needs the PC might have need to be verbally (or visually) communicated to them.

[French Desperate WindChild]

in my opinion awakened companions, alynx or other, should have their own personality and passion. Of course there is their "racial behaviour" but their is no reason to see a berserker alynx or snail even if it is not a smart behaviour (a 2cm snail charging a band of ogres should be at least... impressive ?)

i don't consider a companion as a npc, it is a part of the player cards. The only difference I see with the main pc is that, sometimes, fee times, the GM may have to "create" some event to put away off the scene the companion  (sorry your alynx has smelted  another one, and have you know... some activity you don't want to see)

so I would prefer to build the awakened companion (as any other companion)with the pc, defining what is her behaviour in case of XXX, why the companion is a companion (did the character save her life ? buy her ? etc...)  etc.. The point is to have an agreement between GM and player, to see the limit, to have some balance with other players (here I see balance as fun and share of voice on the table, not % and roll. each player should be able to have the first role, etc...)

 

of course it depends on the players, maturity, personality, etc...