After the burning of Kallyr's body...

[David Scott]

3 minutes ago, svensson said:

Tatius the Bright is probably losing a lot of sleep lately

Very much so, he was eaten at the Dragonrise...

[svensson]

28 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Very much so, he was eaten at the Dragonrise...

Missed that detail. Oh well. Just a little revenge for those Crimson Bat attacks then.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

@Joerg

Leika knew she wasn't eligible to be Prince, that Kallyr was dead, and Sartar needed a leader desperately. Without the unity that a Prince can bring to the tribes, the Lunars would take the country a piece at a time.

Leika probably would have supported Broyan as king of Kethaela and Quiviniland, but Kethaela has as much of a power vacuum as Sartar.

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

The only reasonable candidate was Argrath. Sure, he was defeated at Second Moonbroth, but then he formed the White Bull Society, sailed the Giant's Cradle to the Sea despite everything the Lunars and the Sun Domers could throw at it [including the Lunar's Mission Impossible team, the Lunar Coders!], and then summoned a True Dragon while utterly destroying any Lunar of any note South of Furthest and better than 90% of the Sartarite collaborators to boot!

I think you are giving that former wolf pirate too much credit.

If Argrath had done it himself, Orlaront wouldn't have had to flee Kallyr's ire after his plan to upset the temple founding rite brought forth the dragon, but could have accompanied him.

Argrath was willing to look further into draconic magic, and Orlaront had proven his mettle, so of course he would take him into his cabal of world-bending mystics.

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

I submit that that last act alone, probably the greatest single act of magical mastery since the Birth of Sedenya, erased any and all previous failures.

Would have been nice if he had been present... The magical mastery was shared between Orlaront and Minaryth Purple (who did not survive the quest).

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

And let me point out that the advent of the Scarlet Harlot took 7 people and multiple HeroQuests. Argrath appears to have summoned the Brown Dragon by himself [this is probably not the case, but the optics are good for him].

Where does this come from?

Check King of Sartar. An Orlanthi king cried "The Ring of Orlanth" as the dancers (note the plural) descended into the Lunar rite right at Stormgate (aka "The Pit" to the Lunar magicians), and danced and fought their way towards the (dancers forming the) constellation of the dragon to match the Dragon's Head (or was it the eye?) with the rest of the Dragon's anatomy. Not something a lone quester could do, and we know that Minaryth was involved.

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Argrath's reputation was absolutely secured at that point, but then he re-lit the Flame of Sartar at his coronation.

While Nick Brooke doesn't claim that his Black Spear Saga is canonical, I would say it is much closer to canon than your Argrath fan-fic.

By the time Argrath lit a new flame in Sartar's Brazier by the power of Orlanth, he had shown leadership over two pre-existing magical societies that had formed under Kallyr's leadership of the Rebellion (Eaglebrowns) or independently among the Cinsina (Eleven Lights). The victory at Sword Hill, beating the Lunar magicians with superior magical firepower, was a major success.

There was a new flame in the brazier after Orlanth called down the Lightning, but that was dealing with the problem of the Flame of Sartar very much like Alexander allegedly "solved" the Gordian knot. In other words,  a blatant cheat using raw power rather than fulfilling the spirit of the task. Not that Sartar may have disagreed with thinking outside of the box, the one who found different ways to do things where Ernalda wouldn't. But the use of brute power was very much different from the way of the dynasty.

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Any doubts that Leika might have had are completely dismissed at this point. Even a hardened warfighter like Leika ought to be thoroughly impressed with Argrath at this point in the proceedings and Argrath's obvious qualifications to be Prince fully justified Leika's torching of Kallyr's bier.

Leika accepting Argrath as "her" prince was only after his triumph at Sword Hill, but before his coronation. Argrath demonstrated his Colymar origins, which naturally would benefit the Colymar tribe if he went through with his bid for the kingdom. More importantly, he gained the support of the Stormwalkers, the holiest avatars of Orlanth in the region. I suspect that their support enabled Argrath to use lightning on the brazier in the desired way.

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Sartar needed a leader. Leika provided the conditions for that leader to take his place as Prince. The Lunars have just realized that it's a whole new ballgame now. Tatius the Bright is probably losing a lot of sleep lately.

The burning of Kallyr occurs at least a year before Argrath dares to engage the Lunars in the Far Point. The Lunars were shocked that their magicians lost in a contest of magic with the barbarians, that was unheard of. After the Four Arrows of Light, only Sheng Seleris and the sorcerers of Orathorn had been able to match Lunar magicianship.

Leika did provide conditions for Argrath to take his place as Prince by acknowledging him as a  Colymar-born descendant of Onelisin, and hence of Saronil and Sartar himself. Argrath was no werewolf, which is about the only qualification that made his claim better than that of Kostajor or his sons.

Neither Tatius nor Argenteus are enjoying the pleasures of sleeping or breathing any more by this time, while Jar-eel is knee-deep in Pentan blood west of the Oslir, and Great Sister might have some second thoughts when looking at her sacrificial knife.

 

So yes, after the Battle of Queens, Sartar needed a new leader, but for more than five seasons none emerged. Argrath's track record was rather mixed, his successes happened in Kethaela (Battle of Milran, him leading Caladrian spearmen), and out beyond Prax on the Zola Fel, while his big defeat happened almost within sight of Sartar, leaving him as a warlord without much of an army. His alliance with Jaldon wasn't endearing him to his compatriots, either. He had no tribal backing in Sartar - Leika threw in her lot only after Sword Hill, and forgave the exile.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Leika threw in her lot only after Sword Hill, and forgave the exile.

In our campaign, the mainly Colymar PCs took the Black Spear (thank you @Nick Brookefor the great adventure seed) to Pavis to meet "that Argrath Guy (TM)", and then took steps, mainly arranging for material support for his troops, to ensure that Leika would gain great credit and favor with the Future Prince.  Basically, raising her to first among equals of the tribal leaders.

[Nick Brooke]

9 hours ago, svensson said:

The only reasonable candidate was Argrath. Sure, he was defeated at Second Moonbroth,

Argrath White Bull won the Second Battle of Moonbroth. You may be thinking of the Battle of Hender’s Ruins, the next summer, when he threw away a nomad army taking on the Lunar College of Magic and their, ahem, unconventional assets.

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… and then summoned a True Dragon

Argrath wasn’t present at the Dragonrise, that was entirely Kallyr and Orlaront’s show. Hagiographers said afterwards that “while Kallyr made the Dragon rise from the outside, Argrath made the Dragon rise from the inside.” Which I believe means that he was very stoned at the time.

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Argrath appears to have summoned the Brown Dragon by himself 

My arse. If you believe that self-serving nonsense, you’ve drunk the Kool-aid.

[Scorus]

Interestingly, Svensson's counter-factual version was probably a popular one in various circles after Argrath's rise.

[French Desperate WindChild]

my perspective is very different : there is no "truth"

we have only sources based on "what people say"

some gloranthan think it is Argrath, some it is Kallyr, some it is the dragon itself, some it is the god(dess) XXX etc

up to each gm to choose if it is needed (but is it)

 

of course until I publish the true story of this event, target date : 2163 then you will have the canon about this event

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Scorus said:

Interestingly, Svensson's counter-factual version was probably a popular one in various circles after Argrath's rise.

Well, if King of Dragon Pass is any indicator.....

[Darius West]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:41 PM, svensson said:

@Joerg

Argrath appears to have summoned the Brown Dragon by himself [this is probably not the case, but the optics are good for him].

I thought that singular act of brilliant terrorism was the work of Minaryth Purple and Orlaront Dragonfriend (and friends)?

[Jeff]

45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I thought that singular act of brilliant terrorism was the work of Minaryth Purple and Orlaront Dragonfriend (and friends)?

I've heard more than a few theories that suggest it was the Lunars themselves that summoned the True Dragon, albeit accidentally, by building their New Lunar Temple directly on top of it.