After the burning of Kallyr's body...

[Scorus]

As per the Glorantha Sourcebook:

After her body had lain in state for over three weeks, untouched by rot or decay, the Colymar lit the pyre without notifying the other tribes. Queen Leika then led her followers out of Boldhome, leaving only fear and uncertainty.

What were the feelings in the immediate aftermath of this bold move by Leika? I imagine that some tribes were relieved that someone took the initiative to move things forward, in a very Orlanth manner, while others felt that she had overstepped her authority and perhaps even prevented Kallyr from coming back? What would have been the Boldhome Orlanth leadership's opinion? What factions/temples/races would have had extreme reactions to this, either pro or con?

[svensson]

I suspect that some tribes were royally pissed off... especially the Boldhome-centered Quivini.

Some would think that Leika was trying to become Prince, but if that was the case she and the Colymar would have stayed in Boldhome.

Some tribes would think that Leika was just doing something, ANYTHING to get things moving again.

More than anything else, I personally think she did it to get the thanes of all the tribes back to their own lands.... The Lunars had been driven back, but not defeated. And the Lunars could replace losses much faster than the Sartarites. I think she wanted the troops back where they could defend their lands instead of waiting on funeral for an entire season.

But that's just my opinion.
 

[Nick Brooke]

There’s a scenario about this from the Colymar perspective in The Seven Tailed Wolf, the concluding part of Andrew Logan Montgomery’s Haraborn trilogy.

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, Scorus said:

What were the feelings in the immediate aftermath of this bold move by Leika? I imagine that some tribes were relieved that someone took the initiative to move things forward, in a very Orlanth manner, while others felt that she had overstepped her authority and perhaps even prevented Kallyr from coming back? What would have been the Boldhome Orlanth leadership's opinion? What factions/temples/races would have had extreme reactions to this, either pro or con?

Leika sees herself as Kallyr's logical replacement, so getting Kallyr raised from the dead is not on the cards.  Of course Leika did overstep her authority, and that is one of many reasons people will choose to side with Argrath.  

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Scorus said:

As per the Glorantha Sourcebook:

After her body had lain in state for over three weeks, untouched by rot or decay, the Colymar lit the pyre without notifying the other tribes. Queen Leika then led her followers out of Boldhome, leaving only fear and uncertainty.

What were the feelings in the immediate aftermath of this bold move by Leika? I imagine that some tribes were relieved that someone took the initiative to move things forward, in a very Orlanth manner,

while others felt that she had overstepped her authority

Kallyr wasn't popular amongst some quarters, there's still the memories of her failed rebellion just over 10 years ago. There's her also her inconclusive (failed) lightbringers quest she did a season or so before her death. Then at the Battle of Queens, only the Cinsina (under Queen Ivartha) Colymar (under Queen Leika), Culbrea (under King Ranulf), Kheldon (under Prince Kallyr), and the Malani (under Queen Amalda) take part. Ivartha, Ranulf, Kallyr and Amalda die! Only Leika survives and wins the day.

(See: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/10383-another-question-for-the-sages/#comment-154100)

 

She does the right thing and takes the body back to Boldhome. The most powerful Boldhome tribes are the Kheldon, Culbrea, Colymar and Cinsina (I'm sure you can see a pattern now). The Malani were at the battle as they border the site of Old Top, and what does a tribe who's tribal patron is Humakt love to do... Most of the members of those tribes return to bury their dead King or Queens, those that remain and the other tribes present, likely thought - I'm glad I wasn't part of that cluster fuck.

(See Tribes at Boldhome: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/tribal-members-living-outside-tribal-lands/)

12 hours ago, Scorus said:

and perhaps even prevented Kallyr from coming back?

The Chalana Arroy cult would dispute this. They were on hand and they couldn't resurrect Kallyr (see RQG, Vasana's Saga, 1626, Early Fire Season, Battle of the Queens, page 137 & Boldhome on page 140). After they had buried their own dead, I suspect the new tribal leaders returned to Boldhome. They discover that mobs have prevented the pyre being lit.

We also don't know who of Kallyr's household survive, given the sacred time quest and Battle of the queens, likely few. 

Then the power vacuum starts its inevitable work: 

When another week passed, blows were exchanged at the King’s Square. The tribal leaders could not agree on a successor to Kallyr, for she was widely said to be the last of the royal house and was without heir.

I think that reads that no one could light the eternal flame themselves (no royal blood of Sartar).

12 hours ago, Scorus said:

What would have been the Boldhome Orlanth leadership's opinion? What factions/temples/races would have had extreme reactions to this, either pro or con?

Look at page 140, it covers the events. It's clear why they light the pyre (manually) and she leaves, just to get it over with. I'm sure no one would want to spend another season in indecision, when there's your own tribe to manage with Earth season and the harvest, on their way.

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Kallyr wasn't popular amongst some quarters, there's still the memories of her failed rebellion just over 10 years ago. There's her also her inconclusive (failed) lightbringers quest she did a season or so before her death. Then at the Battle of Queens, only the Cinsina (under Queen Ivartha) Colymar (under Queen Leika), Culbrea (under King Ranulf), Kheldon (under Prince Kallyr), and the Malani (under Queen Amalda) take part. Ivartha, Ranulf, Kallyr and Amalda die! Only Leika survives and wins the day.

(See: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/10383-another-question-for-the-sages/#comment-154100)

 

She does the right thing and takes the body back to Boldhome. The most powerful Boldhome tribes are the Kheldon, Culbrea, Colymar and Cinsina (I'm sure you can see a pattern now). The Malani were at the battle as they border the site of Old Top, and what does a tribe who's tribal patron is Humakt love to do... Most of the members of those tribes return to bury their dead King or Queens, those that remain and the other tribes present, likely thought - I'm glad I wasn't part of that cluster fuck.

(See Tribes at Boldhome: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/tribal-members-living-outside-tribal-lands/)

The Chalana Arroy cult would dispute this. They were on hand and they couldn't resurrect Kallyr (see RQG, Vasana's Saga, 1626, Early Fire Season, Battle of the Queens, page 137 & Boldhome on page 140). After they had buried their own dead, I suspect the new tribal leaders returned to Boldhome. They discover that mobs have prevented the pyre being lit.

We also don't know who of Kallyr's household survive, given the sacred time quest and Battle of the queens, likely few. 

Then the power vacuum starts its inevitable work: 

When another week passed, blows were exchanged at the King’s Square. The tribal leaders could not agree on a successor to Kallyr, for she was widely said to be the last of the royal house and was without heir.

I think that reads that no one could light the eternal flame themselves (no royal blood of Sartar).

Look at page 140, it covers the events. It's clear why they light the pyre (manually) and she leaves, just to get it over with. I'm sure no one would want to spend another season in indecision, when there's your own tribe to manage with Earth season and the harvest, on their way.

David is correct. Kallyr's short reign ends in a terrible crisis for the newly liberated Kingdom of Sartar. With her gone, there was no heir that the tribal leaders could acclaim Prince. After her pyre is burned, the crisis just gets worse until it is obvious to all that the kingdom is doomed to be reconquered unless there is a new Prince of Sartar's blood. And so the tribes are desperate enough to acclaim an adventurer from Pavis who has the support of the Praxian tribes and many exiles.

[scott-martin]

32 minutes ago, David Scott said:

she leaves, just to get it over with

I knew there was a reason I always liked her. The uh "wyrd" of this move may have been controversial among the desperate mobs but it shakes off the terrible stupor that fell after Kallyr's line ended in a dead end. Got to get moving again. Get some fresh air circulating, roll the dice, get on with the agony of history. Open some windows, open some doors, light a match. Turn the page.

The Duke of Disorder was right to smile on old Betty with her tempers and her moods.

[David Scott]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:58 AM, svensson said:

especially the Boldhome-centered Quivini.

There's not a Quivin tribe. Boldhome is surrounded by (going clockwise) Cinsina, Culbrea, Kheldon, Sambari, Balmyr, Colymar, Malani.

See the  post 4. The Tribes of Sartar, 1625-1626 for a great map

Edited August 20, 2022 by David Scott
oops wrong map!

[Joerg]

This may have been the first time that the brazier was holding fuel for an immolation. When Sartar sung his immolation song, flame appeared without any need for fuel, as far as I interprete the story. The flame was kindled by thousands of voices singing along with their king, and seems to have needed no refueling service.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

12 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I knew there was a reason I always liked her.  (Leika)

My character started off not liking Leika, mainly due to the way the GM was playing her.  I grew to appreciate her as a practical leader who protects her tribe and gets the job done.  As, did, eventually, my character, one of our few PCs whose  Loyalty Leika is comparable to Loyalty Argrath. 

It's a shame that "It is known" that Leika will fall by the wayside and Argrath will be the next great leader, because, frankly, none of our other PCs even pretends not to know, so they all ramped up their Loyalty Argrath and ignored Leika.  Disappointing, but to be expected, and, in the end, not that big a deal.

[Scorus]

Thanks! I ran my players through this scene last week. Leika brought her people together the night before, told them that it was time, showed up with them to relieve the guards the next morning, lit the pyre, and proudly marched her clan out of town.

Now the party has to go back to Boldhome just a few weeks later for one of them to be invested as an Orlanth Rune Lord. There will be some fireworks.

[Squaredeal Sten]

While in my campaign the adventurers had a shift on guard duty at Kallyr's bier.  They knew Leika's position and desires.  They had decided to give their loyalty to her and not Kallyr.    So they lit the pyre.

It was sort of a "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest" event: Leika didn't tell them to light it but she sure implied it.  Deniability.  She could truthfully say she didn't order it, even (especially) under Lankhor Mhy truth magic.  .  But my adventurers are pretty sure that Leika is pretty sure she owes them.  And can rely on them.

This is much better than just writing a Loyalty(Leika) % on the character sheet.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling

[svensson]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:09 AM, Darius West said:

Leika sees herself as Kallyr's logical replacement, so getting Kallyr raised from the dead is not on the cards.  Of course Leika did overstep her authority, and that is one of many reasons people will choose to side with Argrath.  

Certainly Leika sees herself as the logical replacement, but she knows that there's powerful tribes in Sartar would resist her rule without the immediate threat of a Lunar counterattack. The Colymar are a powerful tribe, but Leika is simply too disliked in equally powerful quarters and she knows it.

That said, she gave Kallyr's spirit every opportunity to re-inhabit its body. Three weeks is a long time to wait for a resurrection, and everybody in Boldhome knew it. They were hoping for some post-Death Heroquest miracle [which is certainly possible in Glorantha], but while they waited the Lunars were already moving reinforcements to the Provincial Army. The Sartarite political impasse HAD to be broken so somebody could become Prince and lead the country back to independence. Leika knew from fighting with Broyan that an unconsolidated victory is indistinguishable from defeat, so if not Leika herself, she knew that Argrath had the lineage, the following, and the power to lead. And none of that was going to happen while Kallyr lay on a bier like Baby Jesus on a Christmas manger display.

Edited September 12, 2022 by svensson

[scott-martin]

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

Three weeks is a long time to wait for a resurrection

What I really like about this thread is how well it demonstrates the rich readings that emerge when we treat these figures like Shakespearean roles embedded in a matrix of motivation, historical forces and the accidents of the audience itself. There's no definitive performance of King Lear or Coriolanus yet, only more or less resonant interactions with the text. So it goes with the Great Sartar Campaign. There are few wrong answers and an infinite number of worthwhile ones. We know how the key scenes have to stack up. We have almost complete freedom to explore why they stack that way and how easily they could stack differently if the dice roll another way. 

One day they might give out game convention prizes for the best Leika, the best Kallyr, the best Fazzur and we'd uncover world-class talent right here around the table.

[svensson]

On 8/21/2022 at 5:31 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

On 8/21/2022 at 5:31 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

While in my campaign the adventurers had a shift on guard duty at Kallyr's bier.  They knew Leika's position and desires.  They had decided to give their loyalty to her and not Kallyr.    So they lit the pyre.

It was sort of a "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest" event: Leika didn't tell them to light it but she sure implied it.  Deniability.  She could truthfully say she didn't order it, even (especially) under Lankhor Mhy truth magic.  .  But my adventurers are pretty sure that Leika is pretty sure she owes them.  And can rely on them.

This is much better than just writing a Loyalty(Leika) % on the character sheet.

 

 

OK, first off, that was a great way to involve the PCs in the main storyline. Nice work.

However, Earth Prime history isn't very kind to those who are the Doers Of Very Bad Things For Those In Power. For every Francis Walsingham, who retired honored, rewarded and in favor with Elizabeth I, there are 10 G. Gordon Liddys... who died [just last year, in 2021] a broke nobody who had to resort to using his infamy to host Wrestlemania and schill gold on late night TV.

The danger of doing the will of your prince [inferring your sworn leader here] without their specific order to do so is that you can easily be scapegoated if the politics demand it. With EXTREMELY fatal consequences.

Edited August 22, 2022 by svensson

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, svensson said:

Certainly Leika sees herself as the logical replacement, but she knows that there's powerful tribes in Sartar would resist her rule without the immediate threat of a Lunar counterattack. The Colymar are a powerful tribe, but Leika is simply too disliked in equally powerful quarters and she knows it.

That said, she gave Kallyr's spirit every opportunity to re-inhabit it's body. Three weeks is a long time to wait for a resurrection, and everybody in Boldhome knew it. They were hoping for some post-Death Heroquest miracle [which is certainly possible in Glorantha], but while they waited the Lunars were already moving reinforcements to the Provincial Army. The Sartarite political impasse HAD to be broken so somebody could become Prince and lead the country back to independence. Leika knew from fighting with Broyan that an unconsolidated victory is indistinguishable from defeat, so if not Leika herself, she knew that Argrath had the lineage, the following, and the power to lead. And none of that was going to happen while Kallyr lay on a bier like Baby Jesus on a Christmas manger display.

I greatly enjoy people's different takes on this scene. I've played it out from several different perspectives - every time it just reinforces the sense of crisis. 

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I greatly enjoy people's different takes on this scene. I've played it out from several different perspectives - every time it just reinforces the sense of crisis. 

My players had no sense of loyalty to Kallyr at all. At the Battle of Queens, they were far more interested in rallying the Malani after Amalda died. Rushing down into the vanguard, and delivering a stirring speech and blowing the rallying horn. When the Kheldon started to rout after Kally's death, the comment was "Well she wasn't very good was she". This was good time to mention to those who's parents who had been present at Starbrow's Rebellion, to check what had happened to them. The Thane of Apple Lane (who's father was killed in battle) said "at least I don't have to kill her myself to avenge my father". Later the players who were heading to Boldhome with Leika, played the "do we really have to go" card and failed.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

What I really like about this thread is how well it demonstrates the rich readings that emerge

An excellent point, really nice.

In our game, the PCs got involved (somewhat) in the politicking, and my PC, a Kallyr fan (though serving with Leika, the mixed loyalties were very interesting to play) gave an impassioned speech, with an interesting twist on why Kallyr had not returned.  Note, Thomas is a bad guy, specific to our campaign, enemy of the party, and definitely not an honorable man.

"Thomas is an honorable man, but Kallyr was my friend, faithful and just to me.  Unlike him, I was trusted by the Starbrow to take part in her great final quest. My respect for her is second to none.  The calls to return her to life are failing because she does not wish to live. She is spent, her children all dead, the kingdom's enemies defeated. The wounds she received from the Lunars could not be healed, leaving her in dire pain.  Let us take up her great cause.  Let us not force her to return to a life of pain and sadness.  Let her rest in the halls of the All Father, with her friends and kin, in whose great company she shall know neither shame nor defeat."

[svensson]

Well, all this really depends on the PC's and the various tribes' experience with Kallyr. Because Sartarite leaders are more meritoriously selected than Lunar or Dara Happan ones, there are a great deal more personal relationships to go with the political opinions. More people have a hands-on workaday experience with 'Chief Bob' and know Bob's leadership style. If Bob is an inspiring lead-from-the-front kind of guy, that message will get around pretty quick. If Bob is more a Bolthor or Kangharl type, that message will get around too.

Leika's rep is as mixed as Kallyr's was. She suffered much for the cause of Sartarite freedom, and made a lot of mistakes on the way. Like Kallyr, she made a lot of enemies. What's more, Leika's administration is pretty new as the campaign starts out of the RQG GM's Pack. She's only had the Chiefship for a couple seasons since Dragonrise. She had previous experience, of course, and the tribe is happy to have the Black Spear back home, but her administration is still weak and the people are looking to see if Orlanth and Ernalda favor Leika's return. That's gonna take a couple of Sacred Times to sort out.

[French Desperate WindChild]

some ideas, after trying "to be" Leika or some sartarties and imagine their perspectives.

 

1) the kingdom itself

Sartar (the country ) was found less than 3 centuries ago. In my opinion, that's not a lot to consider all sartarites as "sartarite first" before being tribal and clan members. Being part of a kingdom means for some people less freedom and identity tham being part of a tribe (discuss with Boris Johnson to understand it 😛 ). It needs a lot of time to create a feeling of belonging.

So in my opinion, sartarites have more loyalties and concerns with their tribe than with their "country". Even in Boldhome, the tribes are so important.

 

2) Kalyr herself

true or false :

she failed a revolt years ago, with so many deads, without a lot of respect for their lives and sacrifice.

she headed a magical ceremony with so much negative impact

she favoured her own (few) friends with not a lot of respect for the other tribal kings and rings

everyone knows how irritable and irritating she was, and how she can refuse wise advices when she had some convictions, even wrong convictions

the last battle was not a big success with so many kings deaths. She was not a so great war leader after all. Energy is one thing, intelligence and prudence another one.

 

3) the tribes

so many leaders are dead. they must find new Orlanth rex. It means months of political struggles, or maybe worst. So it seams impossible to find a reliable and strong agreement between the different tribes before.

 

4) the date

we will enter the earth season. We need to eat (windstop is recent), to rebuild our clan, our blood. It is our primary priority

 

5) Leika

is it a good time to a non Sartar's heir to claim the "crown" when

- you are pretty sure you will not find any agreement with other tribe

- your tribe is not able to "force" other  tribes to accept your domination

- the lunar empire is still here and dangerous and will come back, seeking revenge

 

The priority should be to stengthen your people, and your own army too. Wait for a year or two, create some alliance with the next leaders, if they are strong, prepare magical support and quests.

Then if you want Sartar (is it so important for Leika ?),

if you are able to defeat the Lunars next wave,

if you can obtain support of a majority of others tribes and temples,

if you are able to visit of the other world and then get some regalia or power showing Orlanth (and Sartar himself) support your wish to lead Sartar,

you may succeed. There is no reason to follow Kallyr path, again.

 

6) John Do

Maybe you like Colymar and Leika, and you probably think she was right.

Maybe you dislaike Colymar and Leika, and you probably think that only the coward queen survived

but in all cases you first think about your family, about the past sufferings, about the next sufferings, the incapacity of your tribe to start new big initiative (if your tribe's leader is dead)

 

that's just my opinion, of course

[Scorus]

I can see a popular pub argument in Colymar territory during this time being that the last three Sartar family leaders were such disasters that that great bloodline had become too diluted:

1) Salinarg's line founded the ill-fated but well-named Household of Death and then lost Sartar to the Lunars.

2) Temertain was a Lunar puppet.

3) Kallyr at least nominally led a disastrous uprising, didn't have enough confidence to try and light the flame, and embarked on a heroquest that brought a horrible year on Sartar.

Leika, on the other hand, had just snatched victory from what would have been a decisive defeat at the hands of the Lunars. In addition to her heroquesting and two trips to Snakepipe Hollow. If Sartarites were looking most especially for someone that could keep the Lunars at bay, she seems like a good choice.

In my game the PCs had successfully reunited the Lysang and Namolding back into Colymar via heroquest. So the Malani would never accept her as Prince and more than a few other tribes would be even more cautious than usual. She will unsuccessfully attempt to get Orgorvale Summer's support and blessing as Orlanth's granddaughter and a former ruler of the area. Then will send the PCs on the Black Spear quest to bring the White Bull.

 

[Jeff]

45 minutes ago, Scorus said:

I can see a popular pub argument in Colymar territory during this time being that the last three Sartar family leaders were such disasters that that great bloodline had become too diluted:

1) Salinarg's line founded the ill-fated but well-named Household of Death and then lost Sartar to the Lunars.

2) Temertain was a Lunar puppet.

3) Kallyr at least nominally led a disastrous uprising, didn't have enough confidence to try and light the flame, and embarked on a heroquest that brought a horrible year on Sartar.

Leika, on the other hand, had just snatched victory from what would have been a decisive defeat at the hands of the Lunars. In addition to her heroquesting and two trips to Snakepipe Hollow. If Sartarites were looking most especially for someone that could keep the Lunars at bay, she seems like a good choice.

In my game the PCs had successfully reunited the Lysang and Namolding back into Colymar via heroquest. So the Malani would never accept her as Prince and more than a few other tribes would be even more cautious than usual. She will unsuccessfully attempt to get Orgorvale Summer's support and blessing as Orlanth's granddaughter and a former ruler of the area. Then will send the PCs on the Black Spear quest to bring the White Bull.

 

Leika's big problem - and it is a HUGE one - is that she is not descended from Sartar and cannot call upon him as an ancestor. Which means she cannot be Prince. So instead of being able to claim an office that is well-established with great legitimacy built up over the last century or so, she has to start from scratch. And she's made some foes as well....

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Leika's big problem - and it is a HUGE one - is that she is not descended from Sartar and cannot call upon him as an ancestor. Which means she cannot be Prince. So instead of being able to claim an office that is well-established with great legitimacy built up over the last century or so, she has to start from scratch. And she's made some foes as well....

There were many Sartarite tribes that didn't like Leika at all, thinking that various factors made them the 'obvious' choice for Prince.

But whether or not any given person can or cannot be Prince, the House of Sartar has had more than one scion who was a figurehead for more powerful groups in the kingdom. Temertain was just the latest and most obvious one. And Leika doesn't have the kind of backing needed for the power-behind-the-throne position either.

This is why I believe that she lit Kallyr's pyre for two reasons:

- 1. A gesture of respect to a 'friendly enemy'... Leika did not like Kallyr, but she respected Kallyr's efforts. She would have done it a different way, but they shared the same motives.

- 2. To break the political deadlock in Sartar. Leika's wartime experiences showed her that the Lunar's imperial system could replace losses incredibly quickly when compared to a system of tribal levies like Sartar's. If Sartar didn't act FAST to secure her borders, the Lunars would start biting pieces off the edges while more reinforcements came South from the Heartland Corps. Either that, or whole sections of the country would devolve into banditry. Either way, somebody had to establish control or else the war would go on indefinitely.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, svensson said:

But whether or not any given person can or cannot be Prince, the House of Sartar has had more than one scion who was a figurehead for more powerful groups in the kingdom. Temertain was just the latest and most obvious one. And Leika doesn't have the kind of backing needed for the power-behind-the-throne position either.

Of the Sartarite princes, few seem to have had the potential to be mere figureheads. Saronil had been fostered at Shaker's Temple and pretty much established what was expected from a heir of Sartar, but lapsed into despair towards the end of his reign after the tragical death of Sarotar.

Jarolar was the dutiful but not very flashy stand-in for his heroic brother, somehow handling the claims that Onelisin might have brought to succeed. He showed unexpected military leadership in his support of Palashee against the Lunar deposed king Philigos, but was absent when Phargentes succeeded in the counterstrike attack, and fell in battle defending the Far Point tribes against Phargentes' expansion.

Jarosar became a victim of the Elmali troubles. Was he a figurehead? Maybe,

Tarkalor was a faction of his own, with long established friendly relations with his slightly older cousin, the Feathered Horse Queen #3, with whom he had a son (Saraskos) during the reign of his brother or so. Tarkalor's cooperation with Monrogh and near-annexation of the Volsaxi valley after the Opening might have had tribal backers (like e.g. the Balmyr), but a mere figurehead doesn't become King of Dragon Pass.

Terasarin annexed the Far Point tribes, and seems to have spread out the dynasty by placing sons born out of wedlock in advantageous weddings in the tribes, like Kallyr's dad, or the son married to the Alda-churi. Enough so that he could allow his two legitimate daughters to marry their Telmori bodyguard cousins.

Salinarg was the first Prince not descended from Saronil, which might have weakened his reign, but that is unfair as he  was facing the full force of the Lunar Empire, including the Crimson Bat's first appearance south of Saird.

 

Other than Temertain, I don't see much evidence for a Sartarite ruler being a figurehead. No idea about non.ruling ones, as we don't know that many by name or deed. Onelisin sought isolation in wilderness (after being jumped over for succession, or already before her father's demise?), Kostajor Wolf Champion sure doesn't look like one, and the Pavis and Karse branches of Eonistaran's descendants seem to have been quite autonomous, too.

 

1 minute ago, svensson said:

This is why I believe that she lit Kallyr's pyre for two reasons:

- 1. A gesture of respect to a 'friendly enemy'... Leika did not like Kallyr, but she respected Kallyr's efforts. She would have done it a different way, but they shared the same motives.

- 2. To break the political deadlock in Sartar. Leika's wartime experiences showed her that the Lunar's imperial system could replace losses incredibly quickly when compared to a system of tribal levies like Sartar's. If Sartar didn't act FAST to secure her borders, the Lunars would start biting pieces off the edges while more reinforcements came South from the Heartland Corps. Either that, or whole sections of the country would devolve into banditry. Either way, somebody had to establish control or else the war would go on indefinitely.

How did cremating Kallyr achieve anything about securing the borders against the Lunars? The Far Point remained under Lunar Tarshite control and could have served as staging area for Heartland forces. The only thing that prevented a Lunar comeback after the Battle of Queens was that two-pronged horse nomad attack.

The Lunar expeditionary force at the Battle of the Queens appears to have retreated in fairly good order, at a guess with at least 3000 fighters ready to face the horse nomads on their way home, and another 1000 or more "casualties" able to do garrison duty in Tarsh.

The situation at the Far Point escalated a year later. How much do you think that Leika was behind Argrath's Sword Hill success? To me it sounds like Leika only through her lot with this desendant of the House of Sartar after his unmitigated success there (and keeping in mind his devasating prior defeat at Moonbroth).

[svensson]

@Joerg

Leika knew she wasn't eligible to be Prince, that Kallyr was dead, and Sartar needed a leader desperately. Without the unity that a Prince can bring to the tribes, the Lunars would take the country a piece at a time.

The only reasonable candidate was Argrath. Sure, he was defeated at Second Moonbroth, but then he formed the White Bull Society, sailed the Giant's Cradle to the Sea despite everything the Lunars and the Sun Domers could throw at it [including the Lunar's Mission Impossible team, the Lunar Coders!], and then summoned a True Dragon while utterly destroying any Lunar of any note South of Furthest and better than 90% of the Sartarite collaborators to boot! I submit that that last act alone, probably the greatest single act of magical mastery since the Birth of Sedenya, erased any and all previous failures. And let me point out that the advent of the Scarlet Harlot took 7 people and multiple HeroQuests. Argrath appears to have summoned the Brown Dragon by himself [this is probably not the case, but the optics are good for him]. Argrath's reputation was absolutely secured at that point, but then he re-lit the Flame of Sartar at his coronation. Any doubts that Leika might have had are completely dismissed at this point. Even a hardened warfighter like Leika ought to be thoroughly impressed with Argrath at this point in the proceedings and Argrath's obvious qualifications to be Prince fully justified Leika's torching of Kallyr's bier.

Sartar needed a leader. Leika provided the conditions for that leader to take his place as Prince. The Lunars have just realized that it's a whole new ballgame now. Tatius the Bright is probably losing a lot of sleep lately.

Edited August 26, 2022 by svensson