Vinga in Pavis

[mfbrandi]

What is canon, anyway? (Putting aside a collection of IRL guidelines for Chaosium authors. That is very sensible, and I am not addressing that, just the idea that this or that is true of Glorantha.)

In the Guide we have on p. 35:

Quote

 

At the primary level, all adult women can speak in clan council, and if a clan “Weapon Taking” vote is called any meat cleaver, spoon, cooking pot used for at least three meals, or sewing kit qualifies women for a vote. Men, by contrast, must provide a shield, long knife, large spear or sword, and “strong hat” …

Women are bound to the glorious tasks of rearing children and related tasks of the hearth …

Orlanth, even has a female aspect, Vinga.

 

That seems to state pretty clearly that Orlanth = Vinga. It also says that child-rearing is a glorious task, and it is not canon that child-rearing is glorious — neither sock-darning, nor pot-stirring. It is only canon that Orlanthi men would say that “hearth” tasks are women’s glory. (Non-canon aside: presumably in an attempt to keep women “in their place”, while in homosocial contexts laughing and saying, “Only stealing cattle and killing people is glorious, of course.”) Plus, the author may be sending up the ever-risible Orlanthi.

The Guide as a whole is not an in-Glorantha document, but clearly there are sentences, paragraphs, and pages all written from particular Gloranthan points of view. It may sometimes be hard to tell when a sentence is the author telling us “this is definitely true of Glorantha” and when the author is adopting a Gloranthan point of view — novelists do this POV shift unannounced very often — because [a] it reads better sometimes; [b] it keeps Glorantha slippery, and it should be somewhat slippery. Sometimes, there may be no telling if a POV shift has occurred. I can live with that.

If I were a Vingan PC, I might say, “Vinga isn’t Orlanth. The men say that. They are trying to steal our thunder.” But there are certainly other ways to play a Vingan: [a] as trans; [b] as a deluded betrayer of the sisterhood; [c] a whole bunch of other things I haven’t thought of.

So then our previous quote from p. 257:

Quote

A rich sanctuary of the goddess Ernalda and her warrior daughter Vinga is outside the city walls, surrounded by citrus orchards. In 1620, the goddesses confronted the Feathered Horse Queen and forced her army to retreat from Esrolia.

I wouldn’t take that to indicate that it is canon that Vinga != Orlanth, but we are probably meant to take it that there is such a sanctuary, and I would pick that up and run with it. Have a religious movement that has Vinga as daughter of Ernalda but not daughter of Orlanth. The cult might insist that Orlanth cultists are deluded: Storm is female, you fool; where do you get your hazia? A splinter group might say that Orlanth = Vinga but the men have it upside-down: Orlanth is an aspect of Vinga — Ernalda has married her own daughter-in-drag to keep the males away from power.

TL;DR: Don’t worry as a GM/player/Gloranthaphile about whether Vinga = Orlanth, but do have the characters argue about it (or at least take different positions on it). Characters can worry about what “proves” divine identities, but IRL we don’t have to.

Now ignore everything I just said and embrace MGF.

Edited August 29, 2022 by mfbrandi
verbosity!

[radmonger]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:01 AM, Joerg said:

Who would a divorce child in a patrilocal Orlanthi patchwork household call "mother"? The current wife of the household head?

An interesting thing is that the divine geneology charts currently getting previewed from the cults book overwhelmingly have two parents for every god, even where coming up with a second is a stretch. The exceptions are Wakboth, who has three unholy parents, and the Red Goddess, who of course has seven mothers.

That could be read as implying Orlanthi society has a strong norm to  having exactly two parents; no more, no less. 

As a thought experiment, you could try to come up with a set of norms for how things could work based on that that is neither a replication of modern society, nor especially offensive to people from it.

Perhaps a  'father' is defined legally and magically (e.g. for summon ancestor) as the person married to the mother when they gave birth. Marriage is more important than sex to Orlanthi, that is one way to make it so. If a married woman becomes pregnant by the couple's helering lover, noone is deceived. Both are equally happy to have another child. 

If so, then:

- A healthy pregnant woman is seen as an ideal marriage partner, and ritual images of Orlanthi weddings always show the bride as pregnant. In many cases this is by the groom, but that is by no means assumed. If a woman cannot find a husband even while pregnant, that is a dire and shameful situation, and one the clan elders would do virtually anything to avoid.

- A child lives with one or the other parent, typically the mother. The other, if they are not longer in the same household, visits. In any case they support the child economically and magically. If dead, the obligation for support passes to their heirs, or reverts to the clan if they have none.

- What would be wrong, the sin of adultery, is lying about or falsifying  marital status, and so falsely claiming or denying a child as your own.

 

[smiorgan]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:30 PM, PhilHibbs said:

They might get away with it on a technicality. Maybe that's where the independent cult comes from...

Vingans: "Us? No, we don't worship Orlanth, we, er, we worship Vinga! Strong empowered women, breaking the shackles of the patriarchy! Surely that's ok? Go team redheads!"

Lunars: "Ok, sounds legit, carry on!"

🤣 This is hilarious and perfect. As far as I'm concerned, close the thread. No disrespect to the other posters, but I declare this is exactly how things went in my Glorantha.  

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/25/2022 at 3:24 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

So your mythology may vary

Oh sure, Sten... just what RQ needed... another FLA! YMMV, indeed!

Gak!

Edited August 29, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

What is canon, anyway? (Putting aside a collection of IRL guidelines for Chaosium authors. That is very sensible, and I am not addressing that, just the idea that this or that is true of Glorantha.)

 

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The Guide as a whole is not an in-Glorantha document, but clearly there are sentences, paragraphs, and pages all written from particular Gloranthan points of view

it s true that the guide is a mix of canon and gloranthan perspective however there are, in my opinion 2 (soon 3) canon source for Vinga :

a) the core rule book: it is a subcult and an aspect of Orlanth, not a goddess " by  divine right "

b) what Jeff said: it is as subcult and an aspect of Orlanth

c) what the cult of glorantha will say: it is (probably , I don't have it) a subcult and an aspect of Orlanth

 

However, that doesn't mean that gms cannot have there own Vinga,their Vinga can be a full daughter, full sister, full different divinity than Orlanth, for their pleasure. Just, for me, it is not canon ,and people should have it in mind.

 

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Don’t worry as a GM/player/Gloranthaphile about whether Vinga = Orlanth, but do have the characters argue about it (or at least take different positions on it). Characters can worry about what “proves” divine identities

that is an interesting question. Which Vinga character could say that ? What kind of experience she would have to say "no : everything the cult says, everything the priests teached me, everything I experimented during initiation, sacred time and other ceremonies are wrong: Vinga is not Orlanth"

I m looking for this kind of answer (not for vinga, but for other problematic) How a character could doubt about what she know as "obvious evidence".

Of course madness and illumination but... what else ?

 

[Eff]

On 8/24/2022 at 1:41 PM, scott-martin said:

This raises a side question that might shed light on the original one. Who in 1625 venerates the Thunder Brothers as individual entities or even as a collective distinct from Adventurous? Skimming the material gets me thinking that the Sons & Fighting Daughter of Orlanth were once more central to everyday storm religion than they are now . . . maybe in pre-Belintar Heortland, maybe as some kind of Alakoring innovation or something we just don't know much about today.
 

The Thunder Brothers (and Thunder Sister, like in the cartoon) feel like a useful method of categorizing and breaking things down, whether that's of time or of space or of parts of the storm or of the universe. I feel like you could find equivalents to the Lokapalas or Four Heavenly Kings among them, and as the Lokapalas fill in the ordinal directions, we can assume that there are eight for the ground, five for above, and five for below, for eighteen total (before getting into interordinals, which would make 36, a 6 of 6s... but that may be a high secret, or there may be pairs or triplets associated with each direction, and we may be able to reach 108 total, or just 54, if we want to stick with an "inner" correspondence.)

But in turn, this kind of fine-grained mythological detail seems practically useful mainly for long-distance flight or ocean travel, and the former is dead and the latter is replaced by Dormal techniques. So there's a reconciliation here and cause to have a multitude of names without standardization, and if we want, these can all be emanations or hypostases, or distinct people. 

Where is Vinga in all of this? Wherever you want to place her. Maybe her position "in Saird" is a relic of this, or of tutelary assignments for various Thunder Siblings. 

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

Lokapalas

I do like making them a shamanic list like the taras or maybe more immediately the maruts: just keep chanting names, epithets and mantras until the trance state takes over and you make contact with somebody. Until you make contact with somebody, just keep chanting names. The name that clicks is the person you contact.
 

3 minutes ago, Eff said:

Saird

I wonder where elmalists make room for their parallel god's red-headed girl version. In theory this would be a (Y)elorna but in modern times they seem to have established among themselves (at least at Mo Baustra) that the red-headed girl elmal is also elmal. The storm side seems to have more trouble with this. Maybe historically in "Saird" the red-headed girl storm was absorbed into shepelkirt early and so we see all these efforts to negotiate the raw edges. 

As for canon, there's probably an uncertainty principle at work where at any given moment in the text we can say what Glorantha is or what she's wearing but not both. Fixed and moving lines. It's interesting to think about in this context here though, since Orlanth as a boy has historically been the fixed line and Orlanth as a girl is the aspect of the sign that resists fixation.

[scott-martin]

36 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Which Vinga character could say that ? What kind of experience she would have to say "no : everything the cult says, everything the priests teached me, everything I experimented during initiation, sacred time and other ceremonies are wrong: Vinga is not Orlanth"

"The gods give hints to those they love" and sometimes this takes the form of personal revelation that expands on what the community believes or even contradicts parts of the orthodoxy (canon) that no longer serve as well as they once did. Heroic individuals who cultivate unusually intense relationships with the gods tend to receive these revelations . . . not necessarily "experimental" heroquesting but discovering new connections as their lives evolve.

I am not going to speak for Vinga personally here but in the past people who spend a lot of time identifying with the redhead and meditating on the mysteries of Orlanth as a girl have come up with plenty of arguments for why they are right and the community is wrong. At some point in their career, orthodoxy no longer supported their inner experience. Their Glorantha has varied from the outside religious authority. They still get their spells direct from god. They don't show any signs of Reprisal. Maybe they get extra spells to reflect their extra understanding.

Many of the characters I know who are like this simply accept that they know more or different than other local authorities. There are multiple routes to god and they converge . . . not everyone learns all the spells in the same order, not everyone understands all the same facts about god in the same way. It isn't a problem unless another local authority says "no, you're getting it wrong."
 

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

"The gods give hints to those they love" and sometimes this takes the form of personal revelation that expands on what the community believes or even contradicts parts of the orthodoxy (canon) that no longer serve as well as they once did. Heroic individuals who cultivate unusually intense relationships with the gods tend to receive these revelations . . . not necessarily "experimental" heroquesting but discovering new connections as their lives evolve.

I am not going to speak for Vinga personally here but in the past people who spend a lot of time identifying with the redhead and meditating on the mysteries of Orlanth as a girl have come up with plenty of arguments for why they are right and the community is wrong. At some point in their career, orthodoxy no longer supported their inner experience. Their Glorantha has varied from the outside religious authority. They still get their spells direct from god. They don't show any signs of Reprisal. Maybe they get extra spells to reflect their extra understanding.

Many of the characters I know who are like this simply accept that they know more or different than other local authorities. There are multiple routes to god and they converge . . . not everyone learns all the spells in the same order, not everyone understands all the same facts about god in the same way. It isn't a problem unless another local authority says "no, you're getting it wrong."
 

The dividing line between religio and superstitio is thin, but within the former, of course, we still have verba certa and verba concepta to stand apart from one another. 

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

The dividing line between religio and superstitio is thin, but within the former, of course, we still have verba certa and verba concepta to stand apart from one another. 

These are very important scenes to play out in some people's Gloranthas and I suspect as we see more quasi-official material around the modern West the struggle between charismatic revelation and the bureaucratic establishment will become hot stuff. Flying witches. Prophetic nuns. Malkion as a redhead, why not.

But closer to home questions like these are pretty easy to answer. Betty Ballista makes it rain. I've seen it. She likes to be called "dad." I get it. She's pretty advanced in our thing and it's clearly working pretty well for her. I'm not going to call her out on getting her roots done because even if she doesn't care too much about the fine points of vinga presentation she can break my arm all the same. Don't embarrass the boss in public.

Orthodoxy in many Gloranthan religious communities is like that. You don't have a copy of all the books. You just have the word of the boss you have and the inner voice of the god within. Thread that needle! It's glorious.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Which Vinga character could say that? What kind of experience she would have to say "no: everything the cult says, everything the priests teached me, everything I experimented during initiation, sacred time and other ceremonies are wrong: Vinga is not Orlanth"

Well, just think about IRL religion.

[1] The Christianity we know and presumably loa tolerate: Orthodox, Catholic, a zillion kinds of Protestant (right down to the wee frees), Coptic, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and whoever else. They disagree on loads of stuff, including the nature of their god — just ask the Unitarians and the Quakers, some of whom are atheists, as far as I can tell. Co-religionists argue, claim fresh revelations, nail their theses to available architecture, and sometimes die — if not happily, then voluntarily — for arguments over the undecidable/imponderable. If Gloranthan religion is to live, it needs religious disputes. The Lunars have them, surely. The Orlanthi might have trouble writing their theses down, but I bet they can shout.

[2] Cults get taken over, and the winners rewrite the losers’ myths. Running a religion is an Orwellian enterprise. But the old traditions may linger on in secret or in backwaters. (OK, maybe this last bit is not so IRL — or at least the image it conjures is a bit Christopher Lee meets Edward Woodward.)

[3] Think about religious experience: you have a vision of a god; does it contain evidence that the entity you are seeing is a god, or is it just part of the content of the experience that you are confronted with the divine? (And there’s that atheist on acid who has almost the same experience but catches not a whiff of a god.) What does an identity between gods look, smell, sound, or feel like? It is a pretty abstract thing to prove. Proof is hard in religion and religious conversion is not about logic or evidence, though of course the convert thinks that their new belief has been demonstrated and that their old belief cannot be right. The world just shifts, and it is not a rational thing.

So you’ve been told that Vinga = Orlanth, but what could prove it to be true if you don’t feel it anymore? And then your auntie Bob — a woman who has never carried a spoon, a sewing kit, or any of the rest, but who has impressive scars, a very sharp sword, and who has never been refused a vote — tells you a story about the true meaning of Vinga.

I don’t want to push any particular conception of Vinga (or whatever other god you have in mind), but if you want it to, Glorantha can surely accommodate religious dissidents. Whether your Orlanthi confronted with such want to lean into their love of freedom or double down on their crazy conservatism is up to you, but there must be stories in it either way. Just — pretty please, for me — don’t re-invent the Spanish Inquisition, shunning is more than bad enough — maybe a small religious non-conformity tithe and a few badly disguised whispers.

Edited August 29, 2022 by mfbrandi

[radmonger]

58 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

a) the core rule book: it is a subcult and an aspect of Orlanth, not a goddess " by  divine right "

Afaik the only mention of Vinga in the RQ:G core rules is:

> The Vinga cult is an all-female warrior subcult that worships Orlanth in female form. Initiates must dye their hair red. It is otherwise identical to Orlanth Adventerous.

That is entirely about the cult, how they worship and what magic they get as a result. Vingans, at least in Sartar, don't run their own temples in competition with those of Orlanth. Instead, they are an integrated part of the wider cult, supporting those women who approach the worship of Orlanth via the female form of his daughter, Vinga. Unlike say Yelornans (or the real-world Agojie), Vingan warriors don't form their own separate military formations. Instead they are integrated into regular Orlanthi regiments and warbands. There is no Dragon Pass counter for 'Red Headed Women'.  That's the current canon, and presumably will remain so.

To go from that to any statement about Orlanth and Vinga as gods would presumably mean accepting the idea that cult worship determines the nature of the thing worshipped. Which is contrary to any number of pieces of core Gloranthan canon, starting with the Goddess switch.

 

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Oh sure, Sten... just what RQ needed... another FLA! YMMV, indeed!

Gak!

FLA?  Old abbreviation for Florida?  Fair Labor Association?

[mfbrandi]

43 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Betty Ballista makes it rain. I've seen it … She's pretty advanced in our thing and it's clearly working pretty well … she can break my arm

I suppose the might-makes-right stuff feels OK in this context — trying to convince knuckle-headed barbarians about one of their fighty gods — but I will just put in a plea for religious tolerance for those with funny ideas but no mighty thews or flashy magic. Maybe there are schismatic White Ladies (some of them gentlemen) who think that sometimes you just have to let the patient go. Perhaps they couldn’t resurrect someone, even if they could bear to contemplate it. They won’t be using special FX to make their point, but ask them and they, too, will have their “proofs”.

Looking down on Glorantha from our “meta” level, let’s not say that religious truth lies with the biggest bullies — “God is on the side of the big battalions” — and let’s not have everyone in Glorantha think that it does.

[Agentorange]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:13 AM, Shiningbrow said:

The reason I'm big on this (and I've written this before) is that it diminishes the role of women as warriors, and puts them firmly back into the "traditional" roles mentality. Women aren't *really* warriors - they're just pretending to be a male. Having a female deity that proves herself equal to (or even better than) a man (male warrior) - and then the big reveal  - tadaaa... she's not really a woman, really feels wrong to me.  So, no, women aren't really (and never will be) equal to a man as a warrior... 

Women don't need to be men in disguise to be a good warrior. But they could certainly do with a good role model in a warrior goddess. (Yes, there is Babs - but you have to be pretty psycho/angry to willingly join her cult at a later age.)

 

If someone wants to argue this, then please consider explaining it to a young girl who wants to play RQG as a Vingan because she likes the idea and does use this character as a way to express her inner self and get confidence, etc...

 

 

The above is one of the main reasons I'm in favour of Vinga as an independant Goddess ( the other is I just like the idea ). i have 2 teenage nieces who have just discovered D and D 5th edition via a games club at their school - and they like it a lot. But they both know that other games exist and that i've played RQ for years, so they're well keen on me running a short game next time I visit. Now having a kick arse warrior goddess who does her own thing and stands on her own 2 feet is definately something i want to keep in my Glorantha.

I never really got on with HW/HQ as a gaming sustem but i liked a lot of the Gloranthan detail and Vinga being a seperate deity was something that really appealed, for me subsuming her back into an aspect of orlanth just feels a bit of a retrograde step.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Oh sure, Sten... just what RQ needed... another FLA! YMMV, indeed!

Gak!

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

FLA?  Old abbreviation for Florida?  Fair Labor Association?

I don't even know the new abbreviation and while some may say another "Panhandle State" on the lozenge is not needed... let me not be one to join that chorus!

Fair labou.... Now hold on! That's an oxymoron! And exactly what the lozenge needs... ORGANIZED LABOUR!
Are your trollkin being oppressed?
Does your Herdman long to be free?
Lunar taxes oppressive to the woking classes?

Nope, what I meant was four letter acronyms... FLAs!

[mfbrandi]

48 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

i have 2 teenage nieces … keen on me running a short game next time I visit. Now having a kick arse warrior goddess who does her own thing and stands on her own 2 feet is definitely something i want to keep in my Glorantha.

So keep it, using any of the justifications discussed here, your own, your nieces’, … or none at all, as really none is needed.

On occasions like this, I always think of the cover of Joanna Russ’s How to Suppress Women’s Writing:

Quote

She didn’t write it. But if it is clear she did the deed …
She wrote it, but she shouldn’t have. It’s political, sexual, masculine, feminist.
She wrote it, but look what she wrote about. The bedroom, the kitchen, her family. Other women!
She wrote it, but she wrote only one of it. “Jane Eyre. Poor dear, that’s all she ever …”
She wrote it, but she isn’t really an artist, and it isn’t really art. It’s a thriller, a romance, a children’s book. It’s sci fi!
She wrote it, but she had help. Robert Browning. Branwell Brontë. Her own “masculine side.”
She wrote it, but she’s an anomaly. Woolf. With Leonard’s help …
She wrote it BUT …

She’s a warrior woman BUT …

So maybe — just maybe — don’t let Vinga be a clone of Orlanth (let her be that “warrior goddess who does her own thing”) and don’t let (every version of) the cult be a way of defusing rebels/revolutionaries/square pegs by making them honorary members of the boys’ club. But for a one-shot, I am doubtless overthinking it.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

Fair labou.... Now hold on! That's an oxymoron! And exactly what the lozenge needs... ORGANIZED LABOUR!
Are your trollkin being oppressed?
Does your Herdman long to be free?
Lunar taxes oppressive to the woking classes?

Nope, what I meant was four letter acronyms... FLAs!

Foreign Language and Area Studies doesn't make sense. Family Life Association of Swaziland?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Like @Shiningbrow and @Agentorange, I dislike shoehorning Vinga into Orlanth.  Katherine Hepburn as Orlanth's Rib?

I especially dislike the unfortunate dual use of the term "vingan" as a gender and a cultist.  It implies that women warriors are somehow anomalies, not a "real woman".  As @mfbrandi notes (quoting Joanna Russ), this is a way to suppress women.

Let "fighty" women adventurers be just that - women adventurers with a spear or sword.  Anything else is up to the player.

(added later)  I realize that this is getting way off topic, but it is something I've wanted to say.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/25/2022 at 6:28 PM, radmonger said:

.... For example, in Esrolia it perhaps could be a way for noble women to pursue a vocation as a warrior while remaining on the cultic path to become a Grandmother....

Something like that was a piece of the background for Squaredeal Sten the Esrolian trader, as a character in play not just a forum handle.  In the Nochet militia his company commander was female.  Remember in Esrolia men are considered too emotional for great responsibility.  Sten saved her life at Pennel Ford and her recommendation got him a job as caravan guard, so entry to the Issaries cult.

 

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I especially dislike the unfortunate dual use of the term "vingan" as a gender and a cultist.  It implies that women warriors are somehow anomalies, not a "real woman".  As @mfbrandi notes (quoting Joanna Russ), this is a way to suppress women.

Sure, but let us not allow the forces of conservatism — Orlanthi or IRL — to play women and trans people off against each other. There is room for both. There is even room for the conservatives. I won’t be drawing a Venn diagram.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I especially dislike the unfortunate dual use of the term "vingan" as a gender and a cultist.  It implies that women warriors are somehow anomalies, not a "real woman".  As @mfbrandi notes (quoting Joanna Russ), this is a way to suppress women.

Let "fighty" women adventurers be just that - women adventurers with a spear or sword.  Anything else is up to the player.

I have no issue with the Vinga subcult as part of Orlanth only.

 

But I fully agree with your words here, it is sad that the "man inside" gender has the same name than the woman warrior of Orlanth. not only because people may be lost with the two definitions but as you said a "woman inside" may be a warrior and a "man inside" may be a peaceful guy. Or does that mean that no "man (inside + outside)" can join Chalana ? Just nandan ?

but that is bronze age and setting. I play it as "some/few Sartarites may mock a man (not nandan) who is just a healer and may be afraid by a woman (not vingan) with weapons. Lot of Sartarites are barbarian,  after all etc..."

So everyone can do everything if there is no real requirement (aka cult descriptionn and there are at the end very few requirement, I don't remember if there is any "man only" requirement )

After all a woman is Orlanth thunder priest in Apple Lane, is there any reason you will not meet a woman of the Adventurous - not vinga - subcult, Odayla subcult of Orlanth, Yinkin subcult of Orlanth...  but some may face some unpleasant attitude (or not, frequency up to the GM)

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

17 hours ago, radmonger said:

....To go from that to any statement about Orlanth and Vinga as gods would presumably mean accepting the idea that cult worship determines the nature of the thing worshipped. Which is contrary to any number of pieces of core Gloranthan canon, starting with the Goddess switch.

Early on on my Gloranthan reading I read two things that do seem to contradict that:

First. That in Glorantha two myths about the same event can differ, and both can be true.  Hard to reference?  Look at the examples of the myth about the killing of Yelm written from the Dara Happan viewpoint and the Aldryami viewpoint.

Second, that heroquesting can actually change myth or the accepted version of a myth. There is a lot of that in discussion about what the God Learners did.  And if you also accept that heroquesting is easier to do with community support.  then  the larger community has more ability to change a myth or to make its own version the dominant version.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling and also examples.

[svensson]

Anywhere there is Orlanth Adventurous, you will find the Red-Headed Thane-Woman, it's just that simple.

HOWEVER COMMA BUT... Vinga Rune Ladies are somewhat harder to find on the ground than Wind Lords. In my Glorantha, many Vingans had to flee Sartar after Starbrow's Rebellion, with many naturally finding refuge with Praxian Tribes, with the Hendrikings, or in Esrolia. I strongly feel that Vinga adventuresses have a mutual support network that helps Vinga women find Rune Ladies for training, spells, and mentorship at least on a regional basis. And it's a sure bet that an ardent Lunar resister like Krogar Wolfhelm would know what tribe or steading a Rune Lady of Vinga was hiding out at.

Once the Dragonrise occurs and Vinga can worship again in Sartar, a great many of these women will naturally return home. But some will remain in their homes of exile, having made lives and families for themselves.

And naturally, many of these questions [and probably most of suppositions] will change significantly once Gods of Glorantha /Proserpaedia comes out.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is there any reason you will not meet a woman of the Adventurous

AFAICT, a woman may join Orlanth Adventurous. In the RQ2 write-up, “Orlanth welcomes almost all beings who breathe air. This includes the Elder Races (yes, Trolls too).” Way back when, your only other choices were Kyger Litor and Black Fang — or to be a shaman. It would have been pretty harsh to retcon out of existence all those early female PCs: “When we said almost everyone, even trolls, of course we didn’t mean women!”