Vinga in Pavis

[Martin Dick]

8 hours ago, Aiun said:

Heh, well. Eff and I play an open-ended game where we each often portray several characters a session. There's almost no combat, and so much of the intrigue is derived from different outlooks (political, theological, geographic, etc.) interacting, clashing, and hopefully finding a productive synthesis by the end. We spend a good amount of time thinking up interesting, often magically inflected perspectives to inhabit.

Have you guys thought about doing a video of one of your sessions, I think it might be illuminating 😃, especially for old fogies like myself who are mainly in a more traditional style of play.

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

On the topic of Waha/Eiritha in Prax, Waha is not the equivalent of Kyger Litor or Orlanth in their societies.

I don't think the CoP figures quite support that; one third Waha, one third Eiritha only leaves one third for everyone else. That's going to be the baseline tribal status hierarchy; Eirithans are the people who own herd beasts, Wahans are the people who marry those who own herd beats. The remainder is either specialists (shamans, berserkers, traders and healers[1]) or 'foreign converts'  (Lunars, Orlanthi and Sundomers). That's perhaps a few percent higher proportion of outsiders than the corresponding figures for Sartar, but not fundamentally different.

As covered in a previous thread, I'd see those 'converts' as fundamentally following the long standing tradition of Praxian secret magical societies. Which are the kind of spirit cults that have to struggle and fight for every scrap of magical power that can be wrung from a dead land. When outsiders start establishing temples, that's seen as basically 'free mana', money for nothing. But also as contingent and temporary, because soon the outsider society will collapse and the temples crumble to ruin, as so many did before. When that inevitably happens, Waha and Eiritha will survive. 

The biggest such foreign influence are the Orlanthi, present in all tribes. They have been around for long enough, and recovered from enough catastrophes, that some people even think they may be here for a while yet. That means Vinga is an entirely mainstream cult option for a women who want to stay in the tribe, get married and have kids, but not have that conflict with being a bad-ass warrior[2]. Learn Rune magic in Pavis, Barbarian Town, or southern Sartar, renew it at the tribal Wind society meetup. 

A women who wanted to join Waha would not be a woman who wanted to follow some particular occupation, but a woman who wanted to marry an Eirithan [3]. Which I suspect would be accommodated though the route of shamanism, where it is simultaneously acknowledged that they are breaking the rules, and that that is ok.

 

 

[1] whose numbers do seem a bit unrealistically high in CoP.

[2] Humakt is also available for those who plan on dying before they get old, Yelmalio for those who like following orders, Yelorna for those qualified to ride unicorns, and presumably[4] Babeestor Gor for those who want to do Babeestor Gor things.

[3] Eiritha is, after all, a cow. And so struggles to overcome a mythic legacy of greater sexual dimorphism than is present in humans.

[4] Not seen that written down anywhere, but it seems logical, as the Paps needs guarding.

Edited August 31, 2022 by radmonger

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I don't think the CoP figures quite support that; one third Waha, one third Eiritha only leaves one third for everyone else. That's going to be the baseline tribal status hierarchy;

No, it's not the baseline.  The figure I quoted were *maximums*.  For the mainstream Sable and Impala tribes, less than *half* worship Waha and Eiritha.  I've not counted the more exotic tribes such as the Pol Joni or the Morocanth.  By way of comparison, the figure in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes for those who worship Orlanth and Ernalda was on the order of 80% or the Orlanthi all (may be outdated by more recent figures).  And for the trolls, every adult troll is an initiate of Kyger Litor. 

 

5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Eirithans are the people who own herd beasts, Wahans are the people who marry those who own herd beats. The remainder is either specialists (shamans, berserkers, traders and healers[1]) or 'foreign converts'  (Lunars, Orlanthi and Sundomers). That's perhaps a few percent higher proportion of outsiders than the corresponding figures for Sartar, but not fundamentally different.

At last a third is "perhaps a few percent higher" than a fifth is wonderful accounting.  And I never said the people who didn't worship Waha and Eiritha were outsiders.  My position is completely the opposite.

 

5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

As covered in a previous thread, I'd see those 'converts' as fundamentally following the long standing tradition of Praxian secret magical societies.

If you think that a third to half the praxians are members of secret societies than good for you.  But that wasn't what I was talking about.  What I was concerned about was whether they were members of Praxian society in good standing.  Is a Praxian who worships Orlanth not a good Praxian or not?

 

 

[radmonger]

27 minutes ago, metcalph said:

By way of comparison, the figure in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes for those who worship Orlanth and Ernalda was on the order of 80% or the Orlanthi all (may be outdated by more recent figures).

 

And adding together Waha and Eiritha to get the corresponding result, for High Llama it is 74%, Bison 68%, Rhino 70%. Which is what I mean by not so different.

Impalans are heavily Orlanthi/Sundomer influenced, as Sable are Lunar. Pol Joni are more Praxian-influenced Orlanthi than the other way around, and Morokanth are Morokanth.

I'd imagine both the Impalans and Sables are at the point of having internal political struggles between traditionalists and Yelmalians/Lunars, with one possible outcome being the role of Waha Khan ending up as a magical specialist doing what the actual chief tells them to do. Maybe this already happened in some groups, between 1615 and 1625 [1].

 

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Is a Praxian who worships Orlanth not a good Praxian or not?

Yes. But, unless they are dual-initiated to Waha or Eiritha, they are at most a lay member in the cult that defines the tribal social hierarchy. They may be a respected specialist, mostly at fighting[2], but they are not going to be giving the orders.

Unlike Lunars and Yelmalians, I'd see the Orlanthi, including Vingans and Humakti, as generally supporting the existing social structure. They commonly have the mentality that their combat magic will win them success at raiding. Raiding gets you herd beasts, herd beasts get you an advantageous marriage. Marriage leads to greater social standing, and so ascendancy in the Waha cult. Maybe you yourself, or at least your son, will one day be Khan.

My assumption is that there are few if any tribes which have the numbers in a fixed location to support an Orlanth minor temple. So local Orlanth worship is via a spirit society. Travel to a foreign temple to learn the same magic the easy way is entirely accepted, and doesn't in principle change much about what's going on [3].

[1]  And maybe it changed back the other way, after the second battle of Moonbroth.

[2] the Praxians have little use for the other thing Orlanth is good at, farming.

[3]  Except when it does, and you start actually listening to those Lunar missionaries, instead of treating them as an obstacle to be overcome in order to get your hands on the moon magic.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

I don't think the CoP figures quite support that; one third Waha, one third Eiritha only leaves one third for everyone else.

Most of the rest Daka Fal, to distribute the tribes of Prax across the three major tribal deities in Nomad Gods - Founder, Protectress, Ancestors.

What you are overlooking here is that Praxians including the followers of Waha and Eiritha are highly likely to belong to a few spirit cults or a spirit society, with the tribal cults sort of a nod towards their identity and the spirit cults a measure of practical use and availability.

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

That's going to be the baseline tribal status hierarchy; Eirithans are the people who own herd beasts, Wahans are the people who marry those who own herd beats. The remainder is either specialists (shamans, berserkers, traders and healers[1]) or 'foreign converts'  (Lunars, Orlanthi and Sundomers).

Ancestor worshippers mostly, which doesn't mean shamans but still people in contact with (and possibly carrying) spirits of specific ancestors, and certainly some of their magics.

Other than Waha the khan-candidate, there is the important role of Waha the Butcher, the ones actually taking the lives of their animal kin to feed the clan/tribe. While Foundchild has similar rites, those are for non-kin prey.

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

[1] whose numbers do seem a bit unrealistically high in CoP.

Only if you treat those as full-time specialists.

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

That's perhaps a few percent higher proportion of outsiders than the corresponding figures for Sartar, but not fundamentally different.

Yelmalio (or Sun Daughter) among the Impala folk and other tribes is not an outsider, and the Twin Stars in the Sable Tribe are Founders replacing the Storm Bull and his sons from that role.

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

The biggest such foreign influence are the Orlanthi, present in all tribes. They have been around for long enough, and recovered from enough catastrophes, that some people even think they may be here for a while yet. That means Vinga is an entirely mainstream cult option for a women who want to stay in the tribe, get married and have kids, but not have that conflict with being a bad-ass warrior[2]. Learn Rune magic in Pavis, Barbarian Town, or southern Sartar, renew it at the tribal Wind society meetup.

A lot of the Orlanthi magics are magics used by the ancestors in the Dawn Age.

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

A women who wanted to join Waha would not be a woman who wanted to follow some particular occupation, but a woman who wanted to marry an Eirithan [3]. Which I suspect would be accommodated though the route of shamanism, where it is simultaneously acknowledged that they are breaking the rules, and that that is ok.

You don't have to initiate to Waha to marry an Eirithan. It smacks of a huge Oedipal complex anyways... 😉 Nor do you have to be an Eirithan initiate to own a herd, even though her magic makes managing a herd all that easier. All Beast Riders worship Eiritha and Waha, with every meal.
 

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

[3] Eiritha is, after all, a cow. And so struggles to overcome a mythic legacy of greater sexual dimorphism than is present in humans.

Eiritha is also the Protectress, a rather powerful military resource of the tribes.

 

 

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

presumably[4] Babeestor Gor for those who want to do Babeestor Gor things.

[4] Not seen that written down anywhere, but it seems logical, as the Paps needs guarding.

The Paps has the Snake Women as magical guardians with physical manifestation.

Babeester is welcome as protector of Ernalda, but Eiritha has husband protectors.

Waha and Babeester share a lot of myth - born from the sleeping/hiding earth mother underground, during the Darkness, emerging as protector.

[radmonger]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What you are overlooking here is that Praxians including the followers of Waha and Eiritha are highly likely to belong to a few spirit cults or a spirit society, with the tribal cults sort of a nod towards their identity and the spirit cults a measure of practical use and availability.

I'm very much not overlooking that; it is the foundations of my assumption about what 'Orlanth' in the CoP cult membership chart actually means, at least outside the Pol Joni. 

As I understand it, Waha and Eiritha are not defined by being the cults a majority of people are members of, whether they are or not. They are defined by being the the only available full rune cults adapted to mobile worship by a nomadic society. The temple is the herd and the herd is the temple. You can't have one without the other.

It is not that they are necessary for survival, but that they are necessary for survival _as nomads_. Without them, the tribe would, if not die out, inevitably either settle down and start farming, or become a Cossack-like military resource for a larger empire[1]. And when, once again, the empire falls and the crops wither, only those who stayed as nomads will remain.

Everything outside Waha and Eiritha is a spirit society, ancestor worship, or, like Storm Bull, the outreach program of a stationary temple complex. Or, commonly, a mixture of the three. To learn wind magic, you might ask a shaman to summon the spirit of your great-uncle who once climbed up to the Old Wind Temple. And that has been going on for longer than there was a Pavis or a Sartar, and perhaps before the current Sun rose to the sky. Probably the guy who built first Sun Dome Temple learnt what he knew your way.

You do all this, and so long as your heart is Praxian, you are doing it for the tribe, gaining exotic magic to help survive and prosper under Waha's covenant. Once you start engaging with a foreign religion on it's own terms, you risk losing faith in the authority of tribal traditionalists. Go down that path and one day you will see no reason to return to it.

 

[1[] Which, under Argrath, is arguably what does happen, just as it did to the Lunar Sables of the hungry Plateau.

 

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 hours ago, radmonger said:

like Storm Bull, the outreach program of a stationary temple complex

Storm Bull cults are sort of important for rounding up the disaffected and troublemakers and putting them to work, as an aside. This is a practical application of the existence of Storm Bull. There are always those on the outside and you need to harness them socially, even if that means making them a kind of crusading biker gang

[Aiun]

13 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

Have you guys thought about doing a video of one of your sessions, I think it might be illuminating 😃, especially for old fogies like myself who are mainly in a more traditional style of play.

Thank you for the interest! It's flattering.

We'd certainly have to exercise some restraint, as a typical session would have a chance of getting someone in trouble at work because their earphones slipped out, say, in the middle of a little casual heresy about just how Samastina expresses her connection with Ernalda.

But, hey, it may happen, and if not... see you at the next Chaosium Con? 😇

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There are always those on the outside and you need to harness them socially, even if that means making them a kind of crusading biker gang

Trouble is that crusaders may end up being a bigger local problem than a mere gang of rowdy alcoholics.

[Qizilbashwoman]

28 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Trouble is that crusaders may end up being a bigger local problem than a mere gang of rowdy alcoholics.

there's so much Chaos in Prax that it sort of handles itself. Also, by "crusaders" I'm referring to giving them a positive goal; they're absolutely still a small gang of rowdy alcoholics, not a massive army of Europeans trying to conquer the Holy Land.

[radmonger]

31 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

they're absolutely still a small gang of rowdy alcoholics, not a massive army

I take it you set your games before the rise of the Whitebull?

Argrath is an interesting example of the kind of cultural blending between Dragon Pass and Prax this thread occasionally returns to. He was a worshipper of Orlanth, initiated in Sartar, but also a Bison Tribe member. Initially he was a slave[1], but won his freedom by a feat of combat skill. He went on to become politically important in the tribe, and beyond, by founding a secret magical spirit society.

So far, that's probably a fairly typical path for a Praxian Orlanthi (including Vingans). But obviously he wasn't content with settling down and marrying someone with vast herds of bison. Instead he had both a Storm Bull's unrelenting hatred of chaos and a Sartarite's identification of the Lunar Empire with that chaos.

So once again the Praxians became counters in a different wargame.

[1] which does rather open up another can of worms...

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

Argrath … had both a Storm Bull's unrelenting hatred of chaos and a Sartarite's identification of the Lunar Empire with that chaos

Hmm … I thought Storm hated Moon because they both claimed “the middle air” — that it was just another turf war, and that the “oh, no: chaos!” thing was just propaganda — but I invariably get these things wrong.

In their way, the Storm lot are as much about balancing opposites as the Lunars: “no one can make you do anything” vs. “behave like everyone else”. And can illuminates discern any real difference between themselves and others? “We are all us” … even them.

[radmonger]

21 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Hmm … I thought Storm hated Moon because they both claimed “the middle air” — that it was just another turf war, and that the “oh, no: chaos!” thing was just propaganda — but I invariably get these things wrong.

 

No doubt someone brought up as a Sartarite prince would look at their Telmori bodyguards and think 'ok, the Bat is certainly not great, but so long as it stays the other side of Grizzley Peak, it is Someone Else's Problem'.

Someone who spend their formative years in a place where the devil is literally trying to get out from under a rock  may well think differently.

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Hmm … I thought Storm hated Moon because they both claimed “the middle air” — that it was just another turf war, and that the “oh, no: chaos!” thing was just propaganda — but I invariably get these things wrong.

When the Moon rose, it occupied the middle air where Orlanth is. I'm sure that's where the trouble started, however it it wasn't until Castle Blue nearly 400 years ago that the Red Goddess appeared on a giant chaos bat. It was a long time ago, but since then the story of the giant bat would surely have spread. In living memory it's landed on Boldhome, Runegate and Whitewall. The Red Moon in the sky, is just there, far away, but this bat thing has been here and now. Wind Lords have a chaotic hate list are: broo; scorpion men; ogres; Chaos things like gorp, dragonsnails, and bullsitch; and people loyal to the Lunar Empire. 

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Storm Bull cults are sort of important for rounding up the disaffected and troublemakers and putting them to work, as an aside. This is a practical application of the existence of Storm Bull. There are always those on the outside and you need to harness them socially, even if that means making them a kind of crusading biker gang

I'd not under estimate the cult, while they be modelled on a biker gang there are about 12 Storm Bull initiates per clan, giving 1900-odd initiates in Sartar (157 clans). If they hang around in comfortable groups of 25-30 there are 70ish biker gangs in Sartar. And I think it's x10 for Prax and the Wastes.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

Argrath is an interesting example of the kind of cultural blending between Dragon Pass and Prax this thread occasionally returns to.

Given that the Praxians were effectively Orlanthi up until the start of the second age, the link is not surprising. Waha is a storm god and Orlanth is his uncle.

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

He was a worshipper of Orlanth, initiated in Sartar, but also a Bison Tribe member. Initially he was a slave, but won his freedom by a feat of combat skill.

He killed a six-legged Anxank. Then made peace with between the Arinstoli Sable People and the Bison tribe. He did this by calling up their common spirit, who was called the White Bull. Argrath used his great tracking skills and captured the White Bull,

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

He went on to become politically important in the tribe, and beyond, by founding a secret magical spirit society.

It certainly isn't secret.

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

So far, that's probably a fairly typical path for a Praxian Orlanthi (including Vingans). But obviously he wasn't content with settling down and marrying someone with vast herds of bison.

The whole Cradle adventure happened! And he already rabidly hated the Empire.

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

Instead he had both a Storm Bull's unrelenting hatred of chaos and a Sartarite's identification of the Lunar Empire with that chaos.

His hatred of chaos is as an Orlanth initiate, I don't think it has anything to do with Storm Bull. His one of his best mates is Orgwaha, a Storm Bull Khan who did not initially did not believe the Lunars were Chaotic but later grew to hate them with a passion (see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-high-llama-tribe/)

Argrath's call to adventure started when the Lunars killed his parents. See 

• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-1-initiation/006-argrath-the-man/
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-1-initiation/007-argrath-faces-the-lunars/
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-1-initiation/008-the-wrath-of-argrath/

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

Argrath is an interesting example of the kind of cultural blending between Dragon Pass and Prax this thread occasionally returns to.

Argrath is a once in an Age superhero anomaly and should not be an examplar for anything.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

When the Moon rose, it occupied the middle air where Orlanth is. I'm sure that's where the trouble started, however it it wasn't until Castle Blue nearly 400 years ago that the Red Goddess appeared on a giant chaos bat.

That happened at the First Battle of Chaos, which was a while earlier than Castle Blue. Both those battles were before the first Moon rose inside of Time. And we don't have any myths about Orlanth or other Storm gods contesting with prehistoric Moon Goddesses (Annilla, Lesilla, etc.) over control of the Middle Air, so I think the Red Moon is doing something new. (But then again, we don't have many myths about the prehistoric Moon Goddesses, full stop). The most notable myth involving Orlanth and the Blue Moon is where she teams up with him to assassinate Emperor Yelm, just saying.

[Jeff]

37 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

That happened at the First Battle of Chaos, which was a while earlier than Castle Blue. Both those battles were before the first Moon rose inside of Time. And we don't have any myths about Orlanth or other Storm gods contesting with prehistoric Moon Goddesses (Annilla, Lesilla, etc.) over control of the Middle Air, so I think the Red Moon is doing something new. (But then again, we don't have many myths about the prehistoric Moon Goddesses, full stop). The most notable myth involving Orlanth and the Blue Moon is where she teams up with him to assassinate Emperor Yelm, just saying.

Yep. Look the Orlanthi is an enemy of the Red Goddess is for the same reason as Kyger Litor, Storm Bull. Valind, Xiola Umbar, and Zorak Zoran are - she brought Chaos into the world in the form of the Crimson Bat. There's no Godtime event cemented by the Compromise this is rooted in; she just did it. In Time. And then made herself a Greater Deity. That she contests with Orlanth for the Middle Air is just icing on the cake.

[David Scott]

33 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

That happened at the First Battle of Chaos

oops. It's not like there's any of images of that. 

In my defence it's all seems like goddess on bat stuff around then.

[Jeff]

But we are now a long way off from talking about Vinga in Pavis or even Vinga at all. I suggest a new thread or threads be created.

[Jeff]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Now that Vinga is canonically Orlanth as a woman (ptooohie! She'll always be a person in her own right in my mind!), is her worship outlawed in Pavis under the Lunar occupation, alongside that of Orlanth himself?

Going back to the original post, Vinga is always worshiped in conjunction with Orlanth, just as Orlanth Thunderous, Orlanth Adventurous, and Orlanth Rex are. In New Pavis, she was worshiped at the Air Temple (previously the Orlanth Temple) during the Lunar Occupation. The temple was closed after the events of the Cradle inn 1621.

 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

But we are now a long way off from talking about Vinga in Pavis or even Vinga at all. I suggest a new thread or threads be created.

Done: Storm and Moon (featuring Vinga)