Vinga in Pavis

[Shiningbrow]

Now that Vinga is canonically Orlanth as a woman (ptooohie! She'll always be a person in her own right in my mind!), is her worship outlawed in Pavis under the Lunar occupation, alongside that of Orlanth himself?

[PhilHibbs]

They might get away with it on a technicality. Maybe that's where the independent cult comes from...

Vingans: "Us? No, we don't worship Orlanth, we, er, we worship Vinga! Strong empowered women, breaking the shackles of the patriarchy! Surely that's ok? Go team redheads!"

Lunars: "Ok, sounds legit, carry on!"

Edited August 19, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Now that Vinga is canonically Orlanth as a woman (ptooohie! She'll always be a person in her own right in my mind!), is her worship outlawed in Pavis under the Lunar occupation, alongside that of Orlanth himself?

Orlanth's worship was never outlawed in Pavis.  

[PhilHibbs]

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Orlanth's worship was never outlawed in Pavis.  

Ah yes, they closed the temple but never actually outlawed it.

Pavis: Threshold to Danger, p22:

Quote

The Lunar authorities do not encourage Orlanthi worship, but seem to feel that if it must occur, best that it occur under Faltikus, who is fairly friendly.

 

[Shiningbrow]

53 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Orlanth's worship was never outlawed in Pavis.  

Ok, thanks. We need to update that bit in the book....

[Kloster]

You also have in 'Strangers in Prax' that Lunar authorities allowed a 'diluted' form of air-worship under Faltikus's direction.

[soltakss]

The Pavis Map did not have a Vinga Temple, either, so it was in the Orlanth Temple.

I followed Jane Williams' lead and put a small Vinga Temple between the Orlanth and Ernalda temples.

Presumably, Vinga would be worshipped in the Hidden Orlanth Temple in the Big Rubble, set up by Garrath Sharpsword/Argrath.

 

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Now that Vinga is canonically Orlanth as a woman (ptooohie! She'll always be a person in her own right in my mind!), is her worship outlawed in Pavis under the Lunar occupation, alongside that of Orlanth himself?

Vinga is definitely outlawed in New Pavis.  Red headed women belong with the Red Moon Goddess not as some second string "Thunder Brother" of the Storm Pantheon.  Plus the Lunars are not sexist, and are well aware that women can be plenty sneaky and dangerous as rebels.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Darius West

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Vinga is definitely outlawed in New Pavis.  Red headed women belong with the Red Moon Goddess not as some second string "Thunder Brother" of the Storm Pantheon.  Plus the Lunars are not sexist, and are well aware that women can be plenty sneaky and dangerous as rebels.

gingers are all posted into the Etyries Caravans

[Darius West]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

gingers are all posted into the Etyries Caravans

Given the number of gingers, those caravans could be many tens of thousands strong if that were a universal rule.  I suspect that it is mainly red headed slaves who wind up being bought and put in the caravans as a form of secret Etyries hero quest. YGWV.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Now that Vinga is canonically Orlanth as a woman (ptooohie! She'll always be a person in her own right in my mind!), is her worship outlawed in Pavis under the Lunar occupation, alongside that of Orlanth himself?

I wonder what % of the varying Gloranthas do treat Vinga as independent.  Ours does.  Her position as Orlanth's Daughter is pretty clearly laid out in Heortling Mythology, in a few places, (though there are contradictions).  e.g. Page 72:

"Vinga is a daughter of Orlanth and Ernalda and is the Fighting Daughter who fought in all the great battles
alongside her father and the other Thunder Brothers."
 

[radmonger]

I don't think the concept of 'daughter' applies to gods as anything other than a loose metaphor, like when an astronomer talks about a star being born.

Vinga is usually worshiped as a sub-cult of Orlanth, i.e. in a shrine in an Orlanthi temple. If you close down or control the temple, you do the same to the shrine.

I don't know if there is any canonical worship of Vinga as a non-subcult, with its own independent temples that taught a full range of magic. But it would be a logical thing to potentially exist somewhere.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, radmonger said:

I don't think the concept of 'daughter' applies to gods as anything other than a loose metaphor

I've seen this take on the gods from @Andrew Logan Montgomery yourself, and others.  However, the Glorantha Sourcebook is chock full of references to gods having lovers, wives, and children.  For example, p83, Flamal "met Ernalda and begat Aldrya", then "he had known Triolina and fathered Murthdrya."  And Heortling Mythology, in places (page 72), explicitly calls Vinga the daughter of Orlanth and Ernalda.

The "loose metaphor" concept is interesting, and I could run with that, and, ultimately, I'm not sure how much it really matters in day to day Runequest of ordinary people and adventurers.  However, IMO, it's not well supported by the source material.

[Jeff]

Vinga is viewed as another aspect or incarnation of Orlanth because 1. her cult is only found in connection with the Orlanth cult, 2. she's Orlanth Adventurous in terms of her deeds and actions, and 3. her only parent is Orlanth.

 

[scott-martin]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:56 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

the other Thunder Brothers

This raises a side question that might shed light on the original one. Who in 1625 venerates the Thunder Brothers as individual entities or even as a collective distinct from Adventurous? Skimming the material gets me thinking that the Sons & Fighting Daughter of Orlanth were once more central to everyday storm religion than they are now . . . maybe in pre-Belintar Heortland, maybe as some kind of Alakoring innovation or something we just don't know much about today.

People who focused on Thunder Brothers might have viewed Orlanth Allfather (or whatever aspect you care to throw him here) as too remote for personal relationships. We can speculate about why that was. Maybe there was a priestly or Rex hierarchy who kept the paternal role for themselves and the commoners were left to their own devices developing the worship of smaller and subsidiary figures. In these communities, Vinga is understood as separate from Orlanth but dependent on him. Theoretically she can aspire to an independent cult but in practice the records we have associate her with "daddy."

At some point the walls around Allfather are torn down and everyday people can initiate to Orlanth, pushing Thunder Brothers worship deeper into the background in the process. They're specialized, archaic, even a little weird. Vinga and a few other more prominent ones remain relevant in everyday life but as individual aspects of the larger Orlanth . . . "Orlanth As Woman" or whatever. This historical ambiguity provides a loophole for some "Thunder Brother" magic to defy restrictions on Orlanth proper because you can claim that your ritual patron is ultimately somebody else. 

During the turmoil when Orlanth proper was dead it probably came full circle with people trying to contact any living storm entity they could remember. Some of those efforts worked better than others. I think Vinga had her share of juice among some people. Rigsdal clearly worked out for a few people in high places. The imperial occupation also probably experimented with various substitutions to find a new cult the storm people would accept. (While we may see more successful versions of "Doburdun" or whoever in the remote provinces, sources are scant so far.) But I think most Thunder Brothers are too vestigial and abstract to make a lot of friends at this stage. Maybe later in the Hero Wars that will change and they'll become important again.

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 hours ago, scott-martin said:

her share of juice

it's CORN. It's got the juice.

[Shiningbrow]

21 hours ago, radmonger said:

I don't know if there is any canonical worship of Vinga as a non-subcult, with its own independent temples that taught a full range of magic. But it would be a logical thing to potentially exist somewhere.

You haven't clearly stated it, but implied it - that's only because someone hasn't yet written it in a canonical (or perhaps even non-canonical) book... Lots of things haven't been written yet, yet people still aren't trying to make canonical statements about them.

 

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Vinga is viewed as another aspect or incarnation of Orlanth because 1. her cult is only found in connection with the Orlanth cult, 2. she's Orlanth Adventurous in terms of her deeds and actions, and 3. her only parent is Orlanth.

 

1 - lots of entities (gods and heroes) are only found in connection with a particular god. This doesn't mean they are that same god in a different form.

2 - her deeds and actions mirror those of Orlanth Adventurous - but again, this is not an unusual thing at the cult/sub-cult level. And, again, doesn't mean they are the same entity, only that they did similar things. (especially when you consider the myths were Orlanth specifically went away to do something else. Yes, I know myths can be like that, but it just adds another level of evidence - which is often what separates or defines entities (certainly IRL that's how some different religions were looked at - as well as the opposite).

3 - Depends on the location. Previous canonical works have her with a mother (as @rodneydangerduck stated above - Ernalda). I'm quite sure that in some areas, Vinga will not only have a separate mother, but also different fathers, and different deeds. Similar to how Elmal and Yelmalio are perceived differently depending on where you are.

 

I think the best that can be said would be - in this region of Glorantha, X deity is generally perceived in such and such a way by those people.

 

The reason I'm big on this (and I've written this before) is that it diminishes the role of women as warriors, and puts them firmly back into the "traditional" roles mentality. Women aren't *really* warriors - they're just pretending to be a male. Having a female deity that proves herself equal to (or even better than) a man (male warrior) - and then the big reveal  - tadaaa... she's not really a woman, really feels wrong to me.  So, no, women aren't really (and never will be) equal to a man as a warrior... 
Women don't need to be men in disguise to be a good warrior. But they could certainly do with a good role model in a warrior goddess. (Yes, there is Babs - but you have to be pretty psycho/angry to willingly join her cult at a later age.)

 

If someone wants to argue this, then please consider explaining it to a young girl who wants to play RQG as a Vingan because she likes the idea and does use this character as a way to express her inner self and get confidence, etc...

 

14 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Who in 1625 venerates the Thunder Brothers as individual entities or even as a collective distinct from Adventurous?

Shamans. And their associates. As spirit cults (obviously).

[PhilHibbs]

36 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

2 - her deeds and actions mirror those of Orlanth Adventurous - but again, this is not an unusual thing at the cult/sub-cult level. And, again, doesn't mean they are the same entity, only that they did similar things. (especially when you consider the myths were Orlanth specifically went away to do something else. Yes, I know myths can be like that, but it just adds another level of evidence - which is often what separates or defines entities (certainly IRL that's how some different religions were looked at - as well as the opposite).

That's the thing with heroquesting or things done in the god time - you do similar things enough, and one day you find that you ARE that entity.

If you walk like a duck enough times... 

🦆

[French Desperate WindChild]

In my opinion there are different options :

 

you may find a temple dedicated to Vinga subcult of Orlanth Adventurous subcult of Orlanth. In this temple all the hierarchy is dedicated to Vinga and you may find shrine of Adventurous, Thunderous, Odayla, etc ...

If I remember well there is a temple of  adventurous in Boldhome so there is no reason another subcult is not able to get its own temple and dedicated hierachy, if there is enough worshipers

 

you may find a location where the god of Air and Air warrior is called Vinga the goddess. But you may find someone, stranger, merchant able to say "your Vinga is my Orlanth" they are the same entity

 

but, for me, there is no option to say here is Vinga cult and in the same place here is Orlanth Cult and they are two different gods worshipped in the same place.

They have the same spells, the same runes, the same myths, and noone say they have twins. So they are the same. That is for me the difference with Odayla or Yinkin subcults of Orlanth (not the same runes and spells than "standard" Orlanth)

 

that's for glorantha, or my glorantha.

 

but that raises something else. Something focused on our real world issues and not any gloranthan logic.

 

Yes it is true, some real people may suffer (I m not sure about my good use of "may", of course there are people in our world who suffer about x or y ) about some points, woman position issue, slavery, murder, broos activities, religion, gender, madness, war etc...

 

there is a setting, it is as is (well with different versions, my version is RQG now)

If something is wrong in this setting for somebody, the YGMV (or OGMV, i prefer the  Our, we are equals, my glorantha is not better than yours) is here to manage it.

but management doesn't mean in all cases cancellation,  change, etc.. It depends a lot on the people around the table, and the GM* capacity to present it in a good manner.

Sometimes, to confront something will give you more weapons to face it and you will be stronger irl

Sometimes, to confront something will open or expand a wound

 

* I'm not saying I m good for that, sometimes I know I would fail miserably -and sometimes I fail-, so  I avoid the issue when I m not confident and the consequences would be troublesome for someone, of course

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/24/2022 at 5:38 AM, radmonger said:

I don't think the concept of 'daughter' applies to gods as anything other than a loose metaphor, like when an astronomer talks about a star being born.

Vinga is usually worshiped as a sub-cult of Orlanth, i.e. in a shrine in an Orlanthi temple. If you close down or control the temple, you do the same to the shrine.

I don't know if there is any canonical worship of Vinga as a non-subcult, with its own independent temples that taught a full range of magic. But it would be a logical thing to potentially exist somewhere.

 

Well the guide to Glorantha is canonical, isn't it?  From page 258,

"Monros (small city): This city, named after a Second Age king, is located at the junction of two important roads and a ferry across the Lyksos River. A rich sanctuary of the goddess Ernalda and her warrior daughter Vinga is outside the city walls, surrounded by citrus orchards. In 1620, the goddesses confronted the Feathered Horse Queen and forced her army to retreat from Esrolia."

So your mythology may vary -  but at least in Esrolia Vinga is not a product of Orlanth's parthenogenesis, but has Ernalda for a parent too.

 

 

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

A rich sanctuary of the goddess Ernalda and her warrior daughter Vinga is outside the city walls, surrounded by citrus orchards.

Good find; if anywhere has a full Vinga cult, it will be the land of 10,000 goddesses. On the other hand, that could be just a temple to Ernalda with a shrine to Vinga.

Note, as I understand it, one cult being a sub-cult of another is primarily a political and economic arrangement. It's constrained by myth, but not determined by it.  It certainly doesn't mean the two deities worshipped that way are aspects, masks, twins, or clones birthed by parthenogenesis. Rune cults are not monotheistic. It just means that if you wrote up a long form cult write-up for Vinga, the section 'cult ecology' would end up with the conclusion 'this cult lacks sufficient reason to exist as an independent entity'.

Unless it does in fact exist, in which case it will presumably have a reason to do so. For example, in Esrolia it perhaps could be a way for noble women to pursue a vocation as a warrior while remaining on the cultic path to become a Grandmother.

Which I suspect is going to be a requirement to maintain their eligibility to inherit land and titles.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by radmonger

[Joerg]

Who would a divorce child in a patrilocal Orlanthi patchwork household call "mother"? The current wife of the household head?

There you have a mother-daughter relationship between Ernalda and Vinga.

Even Mahome is counted among the daughters of Ernalda, although she clearly is just an in-law.

[Erol of Backford]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:04 AM, soltakss said:

Hidden Orlanth Temple in the Big Rubble

Where and when? Thanks!

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where and when?

When: Throughout the Lunar Occupation.

Where: It varied, as it was a mobile temple set up by a group of cultists who met at predetermined locations, each bringing a piece of the regalia needed to set up the table.

Jeff mentioned it in a recent post, maybe here, maybe on Facebook.

 

[mfbrandi]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:55 AM, PhilHibbs said:

If you walk like a duck enough times... 

 

You are probably a rabbit.