How advanced is Gloranthan mapmaking?

[Erol of Backford]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

real-life examples

Seeing is believing? Go two days past the water wyrm's neck and you will find the port...

[Bill the barbarian]

On 9/24/2022 at 11:02 AM, Richard S. said:

Title. I'd think it'd be a good deal better than what our own ancient cartographers could make, thanks to organizations like Lhankor Mhy's cult and magic like Flight or Geomancy (and of course our map loving adventurers), but I haven't found any definite answers. Thanks!

Just watching this and finding it thought provoking. I realize that a lot of this is on iron age mapping and later (it does of course start with sumerian maps... stone ones for those who hate to fold road maps), and that would be because most of the early mapping has not survived to this day, or were oral traditions, but I think it might still have interest for many here. 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Jake]

The most important thing about Gloranthan Cartographers? No arguments about projection systems or calculating for Earth Curvature distances!

Organised armies are a main impetus for maps too.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Jake said:

The most important thing about Gloranthan Cartographers? No arguments about projection systems or calculating for Earth Curvature distances!7

Orientation is probably the big contentious issue among Glorathan cartographers.

6 hours ago, Jake said:

Organised armies are a main impetus for maps too.

And probably more so for the invader than the defender. Place names and direction signs were removed all down the East coast of England so that German spies and/or invaders would not know how to get around and would have to ask. So any up to date quality maps of Sartar are going to be made by Lunars and viewed with suspicion by Sartarites.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

up to date quality maps of Sartar are going to be made by Lunars and viewed with suspicion by Sartarites.

Sartar rebels should view Lunar maps with interest, as they will tell them which routes look plausible to the Lunar army, no? And if you can nick a marked-up, in-use map from the local barracks or from a general’s tent …

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

if you can nick a marked-up, in-use map from the local barracks or from a general’s tent

That is a really interesting recon scenario idea.

[Jake]

The historical fiction author, Ian Ross, has an interesting article on maps from Rome.  This could be a good foundation for a Lunar approach to mapping.

http://ianjamesross.com/journal/2016/8/24/did-the-romans-have-maps

[Squaredeal Sten]

This brings up questions of Pelorian mapping and land navigation  techniques: as far as I observe, the paradigm for the Lunars has shifted from Roman to Mesopotamian.  If that is the case we should not assume Roman.  But it leads to another train of thought: I was taught that the division of the circle into 360 degrees is Babylonian geometry.  So at some point the Babylonians were using it, and I presume they measured degrees as well as just talking about them.  

 I don't know whether any archaeologist has found  an ancient protractor, but I believe they existed.  Ancient theodolite? Probably not although the Antikithera device shows the ancients were capable of some very exact metalwork

So back to Glorantha: Might the Lunars' Pelorian mapping techniques have included use of not only a plane table but also a protractor - and of course the magical compass needles which would point to a particular city or temple, or perhaps to Magasta"s Pool, the center of the world?  If you combine those (and have needles for three or four widely separated cities) then with very careful observations you should be able to make a set of tolerably accurate maps at a small scale, and make a  usable world map or at least Genertelan map, even by RW modern standards.

This does not give you modern topographic maps.  But then, an uncomfortable fact: most RW modern people have not been taught to read a topographic map, so that may not be relevant to our RQ games.  And another uncomfortable fact: my marketing research work indicated that about 25% of the population I was dealing with are what I call non mapping; For example they may be familiar with where two transit routes go, but not realize that two destinations on different routes are only a few blocks apart.   I have other corroborating stories.   Navigationally, these folks are still back in pre industrial times, using itineraries / directions, in their day to day life.   And that is what a GPS app on their phone gives them.  So don't look down on ancient folks too much when we talk about their using itineraries.

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Squaredeal Sten]

The reason I was thinking of that today is that I was consideting a possible Lankhor Mhy character who is a geographer.  Possibly under the Lunar domination he even studied mapping in Peloria.  Now post Dragonrise he may be one of the rare people Argrath would want to make maps for both military and civil use.  Of course having studied in Peloria he is sometimes suspected of Lunar sympathies.

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

This brings up questions of Pelorian mapping and land navigation  techniques: as far as I observe, the paradigm for the Lunars has shifted from Roman to Mesopotamian.  If that is the case we should not assume Roman.  But it leads to another train of thought: I was taught that the division of the circle into 360 degrees is Babylonian geometry.  So at some point the Babylonians were using it, and I presume they measured degrees as well as just talking about them.  

 

They did measure degrees, but the examples of maps I have seen are more symbolic than are ideas of maps. For instance...

 

 

I wonder if the map makers of the day might use narrative as a tool more than a protractor.

 

14 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The reason I was thinking of that today is that I was consideting a possible Lankhor Mhy character who is a geographer.  Possibly under the Lunar domination he even studied mapping in Peloria.  Now post Dragonrise he may be one of the rare people Argrath would want to make maps for both military and civil use.  Of course having studied in Peloria he is sometimes suspected of Lunar sympathies.

Now that sounds like my kind of a character. The map making might be considered as some kind of sorcery and hid from prying eyes, rivals spys... etc.

[radmonger]

To what degree do worshiped celestial bodies like Polaris provide a satellite's eye view of glorantha?

I note that Kallyr's personal guardian is Rigsdal, commonly taken to be a cognate of Polaris. Is that how she found out where the dragon was sleeping?

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

They did measure degrees, but the examples of maps I have seen are more symbolic than are ideas of maps. For instance...

 

 

I wonder if the map makers of the day might use narrative as a tool more than a protractor.

 

Now that sounds like my kind of a character. The map making might be considered as some kind of sorcery and hid from prying eyes, rivals spys... etc.

I was always told that geometry grew out of surveying fields. Certainly on the Egyptian side.  So the resulting surveys might - or might not - be used for large scale maps, mostly for purposes of land ownership and taxation.  But measurement in degrees is also useful for astronomy / astrology, for which they were famous, and the old style observatory before telescopes appears to have been a high point (hill or ziggurat) with reference points and angle measuring tools.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I was always told that geometry grew out of surveying fields. Certainly on the Egyptian side.

As best I could tell this was also so, The Sumerians realized early on that irrigating fields would need some sophisticated thinking. The Babylonians a millennium or two later, I believe, followed suit.

Irrigate or die was the way of it, moving the rivers through the ever growing fields further and further away from the water sources.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

This page and accompanying video give a bit of what you are looking for and ties geometry to early surveying in an interesting find.

https://theconversation.com/how-ancient-babylonian-land-surveyors-developed-a-unique-form-of-trigonometry-1-000-years-before-the-greeks-163428

 

[soltakss]

Some people don't like the black and white sketch maps we have in the Holiday Dorastor series on the Jonstown Compendium, but they would be treated as excellent maps in Glorantha.

 

[Erol of Backford]

The reality is that in a place where persons can fly (anywhere Orlanthi are, people have flying mounts, etc.) and anywhere they have mathematics, most of Glorantha, the first trigonometric table was likely compiled in Seliset, an important center of learning and its wizards are famed for their mathematical lore...

Gloranthian maps should be very detailed indeed. Simply fly up to a certain height, measure an angle with any plummet, square level, groma, etc. translate distances and elevations to a plan. Then again maybe the Orlanthi are to thick headed to use the tools at hand saying they are outlander ways but based on the 2nd Age architecture Glorantha surely had advanced mathematics and cartography.

Irrigation for farming also lends itself to good cartography as Mr. Barbarian stated.

Detailed urban planning with scale models would be the norm in any town or city in the civilized east, grid system streets, cisterns, proper drainage, though maybe not indoor plumbing yet...

Detailed maps indeed.

       

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The reality is that in a place where persons can fly (anywhere Orlanthi are, people have flying mounts, etc.) and anywhere they have mathematics, most of Glorantha, the first trigonometric table was likely compiled in Seliset, an important center of learning and its wizards are famed for their mathematical lore...

Gloranthian maps should be very detailed indeed. Simply fly up to a certain height, measure an angle with any plummet, square level, groma, etc. translate distances and elevations to a plan. Then again maybe the Orlanthi are to thick headed to use the tools at hand saying they are outlander ways but based on the 2nd Age architecture Glorantha surely had advanced mathematics and cartography.

Irrigation for farming also lends itself to good cartography as Mr. Barbarian stated.

Detailed urban planning with scale models would be the norm in any town or city in the civilized east, grid system streets, cisterns, proper drainage, though maybe not indoor plumbing yet...

Detailed maps indeed.

       

 

 

I don't think all that follows from flight.  Your flying mount flaps its wings, is neither stationary nor a place where you can set up a level table and carefully measure angles.  You couldn't do that on a horse, why will it work on a hippogriff?  

[DrGoth]

Another point of comparison is Roman maps.

No actual Roman map survives, but see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Peutingeriana for a 13th century document which is believed to be a copy of a Roman original. I think it's also intersting to note its a map of the Roman road network. To quote the article "It is a very schematic map (similar to a modern transit map), designed to give a practical overview of the road network, as opposed to an accurate representation of geographic features" 

[Joerg]

The idea that maps are a representation of reality true to scale isn't exactly true, either. On our ellipsoid world, much of that is due to projection issues. You can have true angles (useful for navigation), true lengths of distances, or true areas, but need to compromise on the other qualities.

In Glorantha, some places may be more real (more mythically loaded) than others, with more experiences or location per area. It may appear flat and linear, but that needn't be the case. A Mythago Wood experience where you can go around a feature in a day or two but you need weeks or more to pass through is entirely possible. Rare in land cultivated by humans, more typically happening in wilderness areas, but sometimes just having wilderness borders of some kind might fill in area for more cultivated land, too.

Your Glorantha Maps Vary

Edited March 11, 2023 by Joerg

[Erol of Backford]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:15 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't think all that follows from flight.  Your flying mount flaps its wings, is neither stationary nor a place where you can set up a level table and carefully measure angles.  You couldn't do that on a horse, why will it work on a hippogriff?

OK, air elemental, flight spell, when you are talking +/- 10-100m over 20-30km you still doing pretty well. So they take a few measurements and average them? I suppose what I was getting at was there would be many more resources to assist with map making then some illiterate dirt farmer scratching marks in clay with a stick.

The dwarves as well would be insulted to know they are being discounted when it is suggested they cannot calculate the amount of energy needed for an underground tram to run from Alone to Pavis, as an example. The distance would be known and they'd have nice maps or no one would, I am guessing...

They surely had something better than this (beautiful and time tested) 3rd age stick picker map.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Kloster]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:18 AM, DrGoth said:

No actual Roman map survives,

In fact, there is still some roman maps remaining. I have seen at least 3, located in south France (Nimes, Orange and Rhone valley), and I think a fourth in Vienne (France, not Austria).

[DrGoth]

You're right - I got myself mixed up. The map I referenced is the only map of the Roman road network and only a copy.  There is 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_route_map

I'm guessing the one in Orange you mean is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_cadastre_d'Orange

It's a much much smaller scale than the other two

 

[Kloster]

12 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I'm guessing the one in Orange you mean is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_cadastre_d'Orange

It's a much much smaller scale than the other two

Yes, this one of them.

[Darius West]

Glorantha is basically a Terrarium.