How advanced is Gloranthan mapmaking?

[Richard S.]

Title. I'd think it'd be a good deal better than what our own ancient cartographers could make, thanks to organizations like Lhankor Mhy's cult and magic like Flight or Geomancy (and of course our map loving adventurers), but I haven't found any definite answers. Thanks!

[M Helsdon]

45 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Title. I'd think it'd be a good deal better than what our own ancient cartographers could make, thanks to organizations like Lhankor Mhy's cult and magic like Flight or Geomancy (and of course our map loving adventurers), but I haven't found any definite answers. Thanks!

Not canonical, but from my forthcoming Jonstown Compendium book on ships and seafaring:

Maps: Actual nautical pictorial maps and charts are rare; helmsmen and navigators tend to keep their routes in their heads. In the forty years since the Opening few detailed charts have become common knowledge. Often maps are simply a representation of itineraries, not directions.

The orientation of those charts varies. The God Learners determined that Magasta's Pool was the center of the world and the former location of the Spike. Therefore, maps should be centered on the Pool if possible; being from the West, they often placed the West at the top. Lhankor Mhy initiates typically place North at the top of a map, as Ernaldela was the blessed land to the north of the Spike and to do so favors the Earth Goddess, or else East, as the direction of the Dawn.

Genuine surviving God Learner maps are exceedingly rare, and little more than curiosities: the coasts have changed catastrophically since their era, and with few exceptions their charts are at best misleading, and at worst, dangerously inaccurate.

Kralorelan maps generally ignore everything west of the Twin Dragon Mountains as unworthy of interest.

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Bill the barbarian]

You know Richard, I would bet that the maps that would be the most accurate would be of other worlds/realmz/planes what have you. The Mythic being better mapped than the mundane. Not saying it would be easier to understand, just better mapped. In fact, I am sure the mythic would be incorporated into the better mundane maps making them just a little magical... just like written languages. 

My fave maps are knotted-cord maps from Prax...

[M Helsdon]

Here's a genuine ancient map centred on Babylon, and very Babylon-centric. The Bablylonians doubtless knew something of the lands further away, but....

I can imagine that many Gloranthan maps are similarly biased in their representation.

More local maps are likely to be more accurate and more detailed.

[Jape_Vicho]

In my Glorantha, most people have never and will never see a map, they just go by oral directions (follow 2 days the road to Apple Lane, then you'll see a Dragonewt plith, turn then southward and then...) which is pretty unreliable and requires a lot of knowledge of the area or asking for directions from locals. In great cities or temples (I'm talking like Rainbrath or Jonstown's LM temple level) can have somewhat useful maps of countries and kingdoms and in smaller cities or militar institutions they might have crude maps of very small regions on which they operate. I also like to include ancient somewhat alien-like maps made by the magic of the Middle Sea Empire or the EWF that are pretty much reliable, though ofc also dated.

[Joerg]

A lot of the maps in Glorantha resemble the route plans generated by navigator apps, often with pictorial clues where to change course. "March until Peak A disappears behind Kero Fin (or aligns with the Dawn, or the Red Moon), and then turn towards the copse of extra high trees (follow the river bed, whatever)."

Area maps and quite detailed descriptions on where to find (or place) border markers have been known in the ancient world. Natural features like obvious peaks may figure in these, but also watersheds (which are a lot more reliable and stable than rivers or shore lines).

 

Ancient maps or way descriptions may refer to features that dont exist any more - the estuary at Sog's drydock in southern Prax (long since dired up), the guardian statue of Feroda (nowadays lumps of which walk about in Prax as the Watchdog of Corflu) the Obsidian Palace (destroyed in the final battle between Belintar and fhe Only Old One), or a river bend long sicne cut short by erosion.

Sometimes anachronistic clues for directions might indicate that the chart you have purchased is a fake. At other times, the material or the language may hint at how this piece is a hoax, or that you need to apply a code to separate the real path information out of the misleading dross.

Poetic simile is a good way to introduce some "crypto" into mapping or travelogues, too.

 

Maps often tell the truth by lying about details. This can be honest generalization effects, where the symbology used on a map requires the misplacement of an important symbol in relation to its projected position, or it may be a politically or economicall motivated exaggeration of property claims or similar. The clan lands of e.g. the Orlevings and the Varmandi overlap by quite a bit of area, with the local earth temples not necessarily agreeing on all details.

[Erol of Backford]

"Go till the men speak Italian and continue until they speak something else..."

Would typical math like that of Pythagoras not be available in Glorantha and if so by adding flight or flying mounts I assume any maps made would be quite detailed. How could they not be?

A map to Gonn Orta's Castle, sure, I fly up on my hippogriff and see where its at... 

I have felt for a long time things like the Sog City architecture, use of magic, elementals, spirits and especially (sorcery RQ3) make most things unimaginable in our would (especially maps) easily attainable in Glorantha?

I forgot to add sight projection and flying allied spirits...

Edited September 24, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Squaredeal Sten]

There have been generations , very long generations, in mapping techniques.  Before aerial photography (and no, flying on your hippogriff wont give you aerial photos) maps were harder to make and in the early industrial age were done with a combination of survey and a mapping table.  As I understand the mapping table a very good draftsman would set up a table on a high point, orient it carefully, mark his location as a center point, and then carefully mark the lines of sight to ends of a ridge and sketch it in.  Same with road junctions, woods. Towns.  Continue until you have all the terrain features that you consider important.  Do this from two or three intervisible  places nearby and you can be pretty accurate about distances.  That is the way that outstanding mapmakers did small scale maps during the American Civil War.  I will look for a link that might help you visualize it.

Here are a couple; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedediah_Hotchkiss 

https://oldmapgallery.com/products/ma-nantucket-nantucket-harbor?pr_prod_strat=description&pr_rec_id=51709e792&pr_rec_pid=6727210369206&pr_ref_pid=6727210270902&pr_seq=uniform

 

But that is a technique for small scale maps.  And I don't know of any evidence that this technique goes back anywhere close to the bronze age.  So while it could have been done earlier, the evidence I  have seen indicates either not done at all or rarer and cruder.

If you look at pre industrial revolution maps they look much cruder.  The best are large scale maps based on measured latitudes but they have inaccurate longitude.   Coastlines are sometimes pretty good sketches done by skilled navigators.  Other times they bear little relation to modern maps of the same areas.

Before measurement of latitude was done well, you would have done better to navigate use books of sailing directions.  And that is what sailors actually did in the 1500s and 1600s.  Maps were for strategic planning, not for actually going anywhere.

So far I haven't gone back anywhere close to the bronze age.  We should all be grateful for the clay tablet map above.

I will look for an article reporting a Celtic bronze age map of a single small kingdom, basically one watershed, carved into a stone slab.  It is cool but also rare and not portable.

Here it is!  https://www.archaeology.org/news/9580-210407-bronze-age-map

Anyway, another series of developments is the symbols used to represent land forms.  Now we expect topographic maps to use contour lines.  Go back 100-300 years and they used hachures to indicate the slopes of hills and mountains   Before that things are much cruder.  That clay map tablet pictured above uses different symbols that we are not used to interpreting. But that also  held less information.

Look at this article too:  https://www.archaeology.org/issues/337-1905/features/7542-ancient-maps    which shows different Real world styles of mapping from different times and places.

A third difference between the modern era and ancient times is map reproduction.  Maps used to be rare and precious things.  Even a good map will lose accuracy if it is hand copied a few times.  There are neither xerography nor offset presses on Glorantha.  

To get back to Glorantha: No, I doubt that they would have acceptable maps by modern standards or even 17th century standards..  A hide with landmarks and turn directions painted on it, or a piece of wood like that Inuit coastline map. Basically notes to remind someone who had been to a place before, is what I would expect.  More of a visual aid for a verbal explanation, than what we think of as a map.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling, grammar. Making up for the spelling scrambler.. Found map!

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There have been generations , very long generations, in mapping techniques.  Before aerial photography (and no, flying on your hippogriff wont give you aerial photos) maps were harder to make

While aerial photos do lighten your mathematical work load quite a bit, they aren't maps yet, either. Even a perfectly vertical view of the ground will have perspective shortening away from the center, and elevations will mess up perceived distances even more.

The most "natural" maps are three-dimensional models with exaggerated vertical features, and the ancient mapping tool creating such maps is the sand table, e.g. the Greek abax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Abax_from_Darius_Vase.jpg

Modeling a terrain and its features in sand, clay, or carving it from solits (wood, stone) "at scale" is an old endeavor. Creating a two-dimensional projetion is fairly advanced geometry, something that European 2D art only fully arrived at in the late rrenaissance. Friezes on the other hand were able to capture 3D impressions a lot earlier, e.g. Trajan's collumn or the scenes on the Pergamon altar. 2.5D representations can be more intuitive.

If you look at early modern age semi-aerial views of cities you will find the use of false perspective, showing house block fronts that should be completely obscured as fully visible behind walls or other blocks.

That said, you could chart an urban road by extending the vertical frontal view of the facades of the houses as continuation of the edge of the road for an accurate and useful map of that road, although you would have a hard time to connect two such maps at a road intersection without folding those facades up.

 

Maps don't need to be to scale to be useful. Everybody knows how to navigate a subway net plan even though the stations may be marked in positions rather different from a to-scale map.

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

and in the early industrial age were done with a combination of survey and a mapping table.  As I understand the mapping table a very good draftsman would set up a table on a high point, orient it carefully, mark his location as a center point, and then carefully mark the lines of sight to ends of a ridge and sketch it in.  Same with road junctions, woods. Towns.  Continue until you have all the terrain features that you consider important.  Do this from two or three intervisible  places nearby and you can be pretty accurate about distances.  That is the way that outstanding mapmakers did small scale maps during the American Civil War.  I will look for a link that might help you visualize it.

Maps were made using this technique and adding angles from the position already in the middle of the 17th century, e.g. the Blaeu's atlas. Some of those maps are accurate to a few hundred meters,and it is possible to georeference them for use with modern accurate data.

Our world's mapping is hampered by the requirement to use spherical geometry. Gloranthan mapping doesn't need to, removing one significant factor of inaccuracy in early to-scale maps.

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But that is a technique for small scale maps.  And I don't know of any evidence that this technique goes back anywhere close to the bronze age.  So while it could have been done earlier, the evidence I  have seen indicates either not done at all or rarer and cruder.

Ptolemy provides estimates for longitude and latitude for his map of the Old World. I don't know how he received his data from the hyperborean lands that his map mentions, but for a first approach for a global map this data is sufficient.

Ptolemy, Hieron of Alexandria and Archimedes are about the upper technological level that can be achieved in Glorantha, often with mostali support (whether given or stolen). It is up to argument whether Da Vinci, Georg Agricola, Galileo or Kepler were significantly advanced over these classical heoes of technology, or whether the Baghdad prime of technology is too remote from them.

Chiniese technology is off the charts of occidental and near oriental technology, and the fictional technology of the Vedas doesn't have to hide behind Arthur C. Clarke.

 

The problem with Glorantha is that there are neither latitude nor longitude, and the polar nature of the sky dome doesn't give any good geometrical anchors in the firmament (for a given time). There is some tilt, but that is more useful for determining the date than for measuring the land.

The main cardinals of east and west are nicely avaiable as the start and end of the Sunpath, with Mastakos and Lightfore offering three to five horizontal appearances in any clear night. The Red Moon, Stormgate and Zenith offer rare fixed positions above, although I cannot say whether Stormgate and Zenith are following the tilting of the Sky Dome or not. Above is a problem for geodesy, though, as the angular mistake is immense.

Other landmarks were more useful. The Obsidian Palace used to be the highest object on Genertela unless you count the Skyfall. Kero Fin with its needle shape is visible from the sea on very clear days (which admittedly are rare in the region), otherwise you might still see a characeristically abnormal cloud formation around it. The Shadow Plateau and the Vent form immense navigational aids, reaching higher with the plume of smoke escaping the Vent and the wandering shadows above the plateau. Those over Dagori Inkarth are distributed over a larger area but may be useful as reference anyway. Bellintar's Rainbow Bridges would have been great navigational aids too.

 

Star maps may have been around a lot longer than even the Nebra disk, and possibly more to scale. I think it is the cave paintings of Altamira that some researchers found to map nicely to the night sky of its time. If so, that predates the concept of writing by tens of thousands of years.

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If you look at pre industrial revolution maps they look much cruder.  The best are large scale maps based on measured latitudes but they have inaccurate longitude.   Coastlines are sometimes pretty good sketches done by skilled navigators.  Other times they bear little relation to modern maps of the same areas.

Many pilgrims' maps were topological rather than topographical, fairly accurately connecting network nodes but giving next to no correlation away from the network lines.

Linear maps from Chaucer's period, like the re-created one in the scenario of the Maelstrom rpg published by Penguin in the eighties, are the equivalent of the output of navigator apps.

 

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Before measurement of latitude was done well, you would have done better to navigate use books of sailing directions.  And that is what sailors actually did in the 1500s and 1600s.  Maps were for strategic planning, not for actually going anywhere.

Maps and cadastral land registers weren't exactly complete aliens, even though documents like the Domesday Book appear to do well without any mapping. There are mesopotamian map representations on clay tablets noting down land area even if the representation isn't quite to scale.

Numerical distance measurement suffered from a lack of standards. A greek stadium usually needs a city and possibly a period as a qualifier to be converted into SI measurements or funny stuff like miles (which require qualifiers, too, although for many mapping problems the difference between imperial and nautical miles can be negligible).

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So far I haven't gone back anywhere close to the bronze age.  We should all be grateful for the clay tablet map above.

The only Bronze Age documents available to us are clay tablets and inscriptions in stone. Whatever there may have been in embroidery or paint on wood or canvas is lost, as is most Papyrus kept outside of the desert climate (for instance the entirety of West Roman bureaucracy written on Papyrus is gone forever in the occidental climate, lasting less than a century in wet conditions). The oldest textiles other than mummy wrappings that we have found are from Kurgan burials, the biggest collection of BCE textiles may be the Hallstatt salt mine collection.

Sand table maps would have been stationary and temporary in nature, too, much like wax carvings and engravings.

Drum patterns aren't that well conserved, either. Wood carvings fare slightly better, bone carvings can last quite welll under certain conditions, but all these materials can and will be corroded over the time since BCE. Even rock carvings or sculpture.

 

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I will look for an article reporting a Celtic bronze age map of a single small kingdom, basically one watershed, carved into a stone slab.  It is cool but also rare and not portable.

Here it is!  https://www.archaeology.org/news/9580-210407-bronze-age-map

Anyway, another series of developments is the symbols used to represent land forms.  Now we expect topographic maps to use contour lines.  Go back 100-300 years and they used hachures to indicate the slopes of hills and mountains   Before that things are much cruder.  That clay map tablet pictured above uses different symbols that we are not used to interpreting. But that also  held less information.

Look at this article too:  https://www.archaeology.org/issues/337-1905/features/7542-ancient-maps    which shows different Real world styles of mapping from different times and places.

Thanks for that link.

The Han dynasty silk maps (2nd century BCE) are said to have come from a long tradition of standardized symbolism, dating back far enough to be applicable.

The 2nd century AD Roman city plan looks almost exactly like the house blocks depicted in the Pavis box. Only a minuscule fragment survived, but there is no reason to assume that this was a singular occurrence or a huge innovation at the time of its making, either.

 

Architects and city planners would have used maps as representation of their projects. Possibly sand tables and to-scale models, as those would be able to document the progress of the project.

Water management and irrigation require good geodesy for the third dimension. Flood management might do without.

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

A third difference between the modern era and ancient times is map reproduction.  Maps used to be rare and precious things.  Even a good map will lose accuracy if it is hand copied a few times.  There are neither xerography nor offset presses on Glorantha.  

On the other hand, the Lhankor Mhy Reconstruction spell can be cast on a copy of a map to ascertain the identity with the original. Sometimes there may be rather ingenious ways to create maps from models, like Michelangelo using a wax model of the David partially submerged in water to whittle down the block of marble accordingly.

Does anyone in Glorantha use the camera obscura?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera_obscura#Prehistory_to_500_BCE:_Possible_inspiration_for_prehistoric_art_and_possible_use_in_religious_ceremonies,_gnomons

 

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

To get back to Glorantha: No, I doubt that they would have acceptable maps by modern standards or even 17th century standards..  A hide with landmarks and turn directions painted on it, or a piece of wood like that Inuit coastline map. Basically notes to remind someone who had been to a place before, is what I would expect.  More of a visual aid for a verbal explanation, than what we think of as a map.

How do you expect architects' plans to look like in Glorantha? The Kingdom of Sartar is famous for its architecture, often actively designed by the rulers themselves.

Is there any reason to expect Jrusteli standards (also used in the EWF) to be any worse than that?

How good is the Kadeniti tradition of urban planning? While they worked in solids and 3D, they were famous for planning not just the physical cities but also the sorcerous feng-shui and social interaction.

I expedt Godtime Earth architecture (all those perfectly square ziggurats) with its cyclopean, often polygonal rock walls (resistent to earthquakes) to have had quite advanced planning and measuring magics if not technologies.

Gloranthan geodesy is probably a form of ritual sorcery. No idea whether it requires the use of Magic Points (like the Opening rite for non-sorceer followers of Dormal does), or whether the architect "subcult" of the Pavis cult (included in the masons and quarry activities headed by Ginkizzie) has such methods.

In fact, the Pavis history of charting the Rubble might rely on the urban planning done by the founder, and taught in his cult. The maps of New Pavis might be quite close reproductions of what can be found in the temple archives if I compare the Roman city planning map fragment. Whether the aerial views of Old Pavis in Pavis GTA could be in-world documents may be left for discussion. It certainly resembles 16th century "aerial mapping" of European cities similar ot the reconstruction of Caernarfon in Chaosium's City of Carse map. (THe original Midkemia Press product, or at least the pdf, lacks such a map.)

 

But even the most to scale map still needs to be treated with the caveat that the map is not the territory. (Unless it is used as such on a virtual or real tabletop...)

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Architects and city planners would have used maps as representation of their projects.

Plans and maps are different in this respect: the plan shows how it ought to be, the map (in the sense under discussion) shows how it is (or how to get around it). I don’t know what the historical reality is, but I wouldn’t be surprised if “accurate” and detailed plans preceded accurate and detailed maps. Think scores versus transcriptions: they may look the same (when done well) but they are different — the output of different processes.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

On the other hand, the Lhankor Mhy Reconstruction spell can be cast on a copy of a map to ascertain the identity with the original.

Or use a pantograph to copy maps? I know that isn’t bronze age technology, but if Hero of Alexandria actually had it working in the first century CE, that wouldn’t seem to break the not-really-bronze-age tech level that most people seem comfortable with in Glorantha. (And yes, this doesn’t do the same job as the spell, which could still be useful, but it is a first step toward mechanising reproduction, although it doesn’t prevent errors of omission.)

Edited September 25, 2022 by mfbrandi
conjoin sentences

[Kloster]

I know this is not purely bronze age, but iron age, but on this matter, it doesn't change much. Some roman maps were quite good, but the one that remains are not very movable because made of stone (for reasons explained by Joerg above). The one of the Orange Cadastre are a good example.

[soltakss]

For me, most people won't have good maps.

As has been mentioned, most people rely on "4 hours to the red rock, veer right for a day to the great marsh, then follow the marsh northwards until you reach Marshton".

However, there was a scenario where a random encounter was some Yelmalian Surveyors, I think, so formal map-making techniques are probably available.

If there are maps, they will be of the "Lots of trees near lots of hills" style, rather than a topographical map. 

The maps that people get in sourcebooks are probably better than maps available in Glorantha.

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Some roman maps were quite good

I was thinking the same, especially with urban planning and the like, models, architecture. Really detailed stuff. Maybe the distances between landmarks/towns were listed in an itinerarium and not detailed per modern cartography but still showing landmark details. How were 

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

use a pantograph to copy maps

Dwarves have this as a rudimentary device as would masons and artisans across Glorantha in more civilized areas?

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Gloranthan geodesy is probably a form of ritual sorcery.

 Again you add sight projection (RQ3), dwarfish ingenuity, aerial capabilities and nothing but the expense would stop a map from being incredibly detailed IMO.

How would someone Heroquest for cartography!?

What Lhankor Mhy myths would allow for an inherent power be gained to generate incredibly detailed maps?

On a side note Windwhistler may be a good scenario link for mapping the Rubble and even the River of Cradles. A Daughter of Pavis wants a detailed map? (Do they have them already?) The Duke may also hire the PC's as a survey team competing against or working with the Lunar one lead by Dalamides and Hazphar?

Edited September 25, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Squaredeal Sten]

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For me, most people won't have good maps......

However, there was a scenario where a random encounter was some Yelmalian Surveyors, I think, ......

The maps that people get in sourcebooks are probably better than maps available in Glorantha.

It depends on what the Yelmalian surveyors were surveying for.  Without knowing, I would guess surveying fields.  Establishing boundaries for ownership and calculating area for taxation. 

The ancient Egyptians had that down.  They may well have had local maps if only as an index to the tax records.

But if that is the case, that doesn't indicate possession of accurate large scale maps to find your way cross country by.

I definitely agree that the GM's maps will and should be better than anything the players buy in campaign.

[mfbrandi]

13 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Dwarves have this as a rudimentary device as would masons and artisans across Glorantha in more civilized areas?

You can make it so.

Now Gloranthan masons — free or otherwise — they might have a nice little paranoid cult, with closely guarded secrets (some of them useless) … Genuinely useful tools could be passed off as mere religious paraphernalia.

Is it recorded who human masons worship and how? Is it secretly a Mostal cult (no divine magic required), but scorned by all the Mostali (and most of the dwarfs) who have figured that out? An earth cult, as they are definitely on the square? Could be a non-Western monotheism or pantheism (arguably, Mostali are pantheists).

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

However, there was a scenario where a random encounter was some Yelmalian Surveyors, I think, so formal map-making techniques are probably available.

RQ2 Yelmalio had the Togtuvei subcult that taught mapmapking, though that skill has since been nixed.

56 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Is it recorded who human masons worship and how? Is it secretly a Mostal cult (no divine magic required), but scorned by all the Mostali (and most of the dwarfs) who have figured that out? An earth cult, as they are definitely on the square? Could be a non-Western monotheism or pantheism (arguably, Mostali are pantheists).

We know Pavis masons worship Flintnail and/or Pavis, and I believe Jeff mentioned Sartar providing magic to Boldhome masons. One of Lodril's sons is a mason, right? I'd imagine he's fairly popular.

 

In my Glorantha, the sages offer maps for purchase similar to the old b&w one in RQ2, mostly because it makes life much easier for everyone at the table. It's more than a little anachronistic, but Glorantha's full of anachronisms already so I'm not losing much sleep.

[scott-martin]

49 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

In my Glorantha, the sages offer maps for purchase similar to the old b&w one in RQ2, mostly because it makes life much easier for everyone at the table. It's more than a little anachronistic, but Glorantha's full of anachronisms already so I'm not losing much sleep.

Love it. Bit of trivia for you, at one point (c. 1991) Greg was convinced that map making was "a new art" as far as Slontos around 550 was concerned. Not a lot of context around that detail like whether the technology developed there or was imported, but as others on the thread have already noted, modern Gloranthan maps are free to be pretty good. Actually, am I misremembering or do some Avalon Hill era supplements have in-game "players map" handouts that the characters can buy? 

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

....Actually, am I misremembering or do some Avalon Hill era supplements have in-game "players map" handouts that the characters can buy? 

Griffin Mountain has player handout maps.  They are route sketch maps.  I will check A/H Trollpack when I get home, think there is at least one.

 

OK, from the A/H (RQ3) Trollpack -  there are three pieces of player handouts.  They contain lots of text, a sketch of an Uz village, at least two cave/dungeon sketches, and this (upload below) is a scan of a map for a journey, about 4"x3" in the original.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
found and scanned map

[svensson]

Maps would be rare, for one thing. Not many people have need of an actual map because 90% of the directions they'll receive will be via landmarks.

"Follow the river about half a day's walk until you come to a stream feeding in on the other side. You'll know it's the right stream because it has a great big boulder on the shore where it enters the river. From there turn left...."

I agree that Lhankor Mhy, Issaries, and the very existence of reliable magic would tend to make maps more accurate, but they're certainly not going to be topographic or surveyed. For that matter, you'll notice that very little of the Glorantha art as done by Gloranthan artists uses perspective at all.

All this tells me that maps will tend to be 'poetic' rather than absolutely GPS accurate. If it was my game, I'd rule that the map in the frontspiece [the map between the cover and the credits page] of the Glorantha Bestiary would be a good example of a high quality map.

Edited September 25, 2022 by svensson

[Bill the barbarian]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Or use a pantograph to copy maps? I know that isn’t bronze age technology, but if Hero of Alexandria actually had it working in the first century CE, that wouldn’t seem to break the not-really-bronze-age tech level that most people seem comfortable with in Glorantha. (And yes, this doesn’t do the same job as the spell, which could still be useful, but it is a first step toward mechanising reproduction, although it doesn’t prevent errors of omission.)

 

Agreed, love the graphic by-the-by, very cool.

Usually, such CE or iron-age BCE tech seems to be assigned to the oddballs and/or odd situations of our beloved lozenge. The "Dragon Pass Homeland's" equivalent of Steve Jobs, et al. Leonardo for example or The Dwarf, or an odd denizen or two of TInk or other such odd places. All usually imbued with that very odd Staffordian sense of wonder that makes such great sense on a cube.

 

11 minutes ago, svensson said:

Maps would be rare, for one thing. Not many people have need of an actual map because 90% of the directions they'll receive will be via landmarks.

 

Agreed and those that exist would be much more primitive than most desired by adventurers! (See @Squaredeal Sten's comment about GM is about player's maps but the primitiveness of some of those very maps qualifies them for use in this quote) Or artifacts left over from the God's Age (and even sooner). 

 

11 minutes ago, svensson said:

All this tells me that maps will tend to be 'poetic' rather than dead on accurate. 

Yep and Mythic as well! And the Myth might be more accurate than the fact on the lozenge!

Edited September 25, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[PhilHibbs]

We are used to navigating the world by map. Gloranthans are used to using point-to-point directions and symbolic representations. Praxians use knotted cord.

If we insisted that the players used Gloranthan methods, they would be useless. Like fish out of water. It would be deeply unfair to ask people to suddenly change the way they view the world and to still work effectively.

So we use maps, we give the players "in-world" handouts that have been translated from whatever navigational methods Gloranthans use into modern maps.

After all, you wouldn't give them a document in Heortling written in Theyalan script and expect them to learn to read it.

[EricW]

Gloranthans can always ask their gods or use a magic compass. There are probably some spectacularly detailed maps, created by sages, EWF and god learners, but most people probably don’t need such precision.

”Hey Eurmal, I need some directions..,” 🙂

[Erol of Backford]

One thing I loved about playing Medieval Fantasy games when I was a kid were the maps. We pondered them for hours preparing our characters for the journeys, what did we need, equipment, food, water, where would we camp, what places could we reprovision... it went on and on. Who didn't carry a 10' pole!

Sometimes the getting there was half the adventure in itself!

The drawn map (Jon Mith's below) versus the surveyed map augmented by aerial reconnoiter work and assisted by ancient math could easily generate detailed maps even with limited contours. Easily better then the AAA. The issue is cost and the use of magic and flying mounts.

So yes the average map might not be as good as Jon Mith's map but could the be very very detailed with elevation contours, etc. of course. I like Eric's magic compass idea!

[Erol of Backford]

Found this interesting from Peterson's Campaign:

We asked the man to draw us a map, but he seemed confused as to why he should draw a map. We convinced him to do so, and he pulled out a large board, covered with strange symbols and began to copy from it. The map he produced was utterly incomprehensible. There was no scale, and no absolute directions. All directions were relative, generally parallel to the spine of an island. Landmarks abounded, some only visible at low tide.

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The map he produced was utterly incomprehensible. There was no scale, and no absolute directions. All directions were relative, generally parallel to the spine of an island. Landmarks abounded, some only visible at low tide.

[Emphasis mine.]

So clearly the “map” was not utterly incomprehensible. Did it in the end prove useful to the party?

I wouldn’t be surprised if Petersen had some real-life examples in mind.