Thanatar and Krarsht in the Lunar Empire?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The way you describe how they think and act (supporting the empire rather than their god) doesn't strike me as interesting.

I was mainly thinking about them doing it for their own benefit.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Being evil and a Thanatari is not the problem - avoiding detection in a civilized society is.  No matter how illuminated you are is not going to save you from the authorities should you walk around with heads on your bely.  

This is true, but then, I don't picture wearing the heads at all time is a requirement? A nobleman doing it at his mansion, collecting the heads of slaves purchased for the purpose and perhaps the occasional traveller, could probably get away with it for a very long time.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

You really have to define systematically evil because I really don't see it as being compatible with illumination.  Even the one example of systematic illumination that you have offered up so far (Ralzakar's sword broos) can be better explained with a severe geas.  

Ralzakark himself? I mean, one of the points about Illumination is that you achieve radical freedom. This includes the freedom to act in ways that the less enlightened would call "evil" (those deluded fools!).

Since this isn't D&D, "evil" (unlike Chaos) isn't a supernatural force, but the overwhelming majority of people would presumably agree that Ralzakark, or Thanatari, are evil. 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

No, I'm pointing out that handwaving people as illuminated so they can collectively behave as stereotypical powergamers or what have you misses the point about what being Illuminated should actually be.  A Tahnatari that consumed someone's mind and ended up worshipping Chalana Arroy (someone's explanation for the Wild Healer) better encapsulates what Illumination is like.  It's madness mixed in with doubt on a cosmic scale.

If an Illuminated person decides that something is an Important Thing they need to strive for, there's a tendency among some to be lax about the tools to achieve it, like Arkat betraying most everyone to achieve his goal or the Nysaloreans spreading plague. Neither Arkat nor Argrath embraced Chaos to achieve theirs, but it doesn't seem far-fetched that some Lunars might, especially as the Red Goddess already is Chaotic and teaches them there's nothing wrong in principle about it.

This does not mean that someone whispering to his heads would be a sane and balanced individual.

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Kinda doubt that.  Hiding the taint is not an automatic feature of illumination and even when you learned how to, the physical effects of a chaotic feature (such as a third arm or broo's horns) can't be hidden - they won't just register as chaotic, that's all.  

I agree about this. What would it even mean to have your third arm concealed through Illumination?

[svensson]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well, illumination will hide the overt signs of chaos like a chaos taint or feature.  It won't hide your Thanatar tattoo, or your talking severed head collection.  Illumination is useful for chaotics but not enough on its own.  For that you need tradecraft.

I didn't say that an Illuminate was 'clean'. I was implying that Chaotic can mitigate his Chaotic condition with Illumination, but can't remove or ignore it, no more than an Illuminate Elf can 'ignore' his Plant Rune or a human can ignore his Man Rune. An Illuminate has greater choice over how he manifests his Chaotic nature, the way he chooses to destroy, but not the impulse for destruction itself.

The ONLY way [or at least the only way I know of] to purge someone of the taint of Chaos is through the Cleansed One HeroQuest.

[svensson]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well, illumination will hide the overt signs of chaos like a chaos taint or feature.  It won't hide your Thanatar tattoo, or your talking severed head collection.  Illumination is useful for chaotics but not enough on its own.  For that you need tradecraft.

Nope. Not even. If you have a tentacle growing out of your head, no amount of Illumination is going to hide that fact. That take Illusion Rune magic, and lots of it. I've never heard of Illumination concealing overt signs of Chaos taint.

As to Illumination helping Chaotics, it absolutely does. Couldn't agree more. For one thing, Illumination helps the Chaotic be patient enough to learn tradecraft in the first place.

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is true, but then, I don't picture wearing the heads at all time is a requirement? A nobleman doing it at his mansion, collecting the heads of slaves purchased for the purpose and perhaps the occasional traveller, could probably get away with it for a very long time.

Purchased slaves are unlikely to be worth the effort of a severed head.  The Thanatari acquires power from others who have it.  

 

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ralzakark himself? I mean, one of the points about Illumination is that you achieve radical freedom. This includes the freedom to act in ways that the less enlightened would call "evil" (those deluded fools!).

Ralzakark is only one demigod.  I'm talking about a temple of illuminated Thanatari - groups of people.  If they all have radical freedom, how would they be expected to act in a the same way or even share the same goals?

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Purchased slaves are unlikely to be worth the effort of a severed head.  The Thanatari acquires power from others who have it.  

In general, yes, but you're looking for the exceptions.

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Ralzakark is only one demigod.  I'm talking about a temple of illuminated Thanatari - groups of people.  If they all have radical freedom, how would they be expected to act in a the same way or even share the same goals?

I wouldn't argue that they do. A Thanatar cult is bound to be a pit of vipers and treachery. Infighting probably does more to keep them in check than any outside policing.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Purchased slaves are unlikely to be worth the effort of a severed head.  The Thanatari acquires power from others who have it

 

Here is a grim scenario seed counter to that.   Feel free to use it in your game:

A Thanatar cultist achieves a job taking charge of prisoner of war slaves and moving them to Peloria.  This is a perfectly respectable Lunar government position achieved through good connections. Or maybe a contractor position which goes to the lowest bidder, and this is why he bids low.  Lunar logistics may vary in your Glorantha.

He or she skims off the magically powerful ones.   There is always a little shrinkage in a coffle.  Maybe some escape, yes that's what he writes down.    Maybe some were rebels sentenced to be crucified or fed to the Crimson Bat, and he just reports that this was done. Who audits that?  Maybe they died of natural causes or disease  or wounds suffered when they were captured.  Maybe he reports that one was disobedient and was flogged to death, it's necessary in enslaving people, maintains discipline you know.    As long as 90% arrive in Peloria, or he can attribute 80% arriving to bad luck, who will inquire deeply into this?  

His chest of heads may get heavier as the trip north goes on.  What's that? Just some souvenirs.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling, grammar.

[Akhôrahil]

42 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Here is a grim scenario seed counter to that.   Feel free to use it in your game:

A Thanatar cultist achieves a job taking charge of prisoner of war slaves and moving them to Peloria.  This is a perfectly respectable Lunar government position achieved through good connections. Or maybe a contractor position which goes to the lowest bidder, and this is why he bids low.  Lunar logistics may vary in your Glorantha.

He or she skims off the magically powerful ones.   There is always a little shrinkage in a coffle.  Maybe some escape, yes that's what he writes down.    Maybe some were rebels sentenced to be crucified or fed to the Crimson Bat, and he just reports that this was done. Who audits that?  Maybe they died of natural causes or disease  or wounds suffered when they were captured.  Maybe he reports that one was disobedient and was flogged to death, it's necessary in enslaving people, maintains discipline you know.    As long as 90% arrive in Peloria, or he can attribute 80% arriving to bad luck, who will inquire deeply into this?  

His chest of heads may get heavier as the trip north goes on.  What's that? Just some souvenirs.

Good plot hook too, when your Ancestors demand that you go free the spirit of the deceased. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

in my opinion, there are thanatari and krasht human supporters in the empire, as you may find them anywhere

 

the only difference I see with anti-chaos policy country is some may be convinced by the Empire policy

 

so we have secretive people you may meet

- some considering the empire must be helped because the empire serves the cause

- some considering they can take advantage to the empire for their own benefit (or their cult benefit), being "officialy" identified as "licensed" chaos worshipper (of course officially does'nt mean "hey I am a chaos worshipper" when you introduce yourself to anyone...)

- some considering they can take advantage to the empire for their own benefit (or their cult benefit), hidding what they worship, but not trying to corrupt ?! the empire until the destruction.

- some considering the empire is like any other country / community / society: it is just their "prey"

 

I don't see smart chaotic people following all the same path. They have their cult goals, but for the rest, they may have different perception, strategy, etc...

 

and i don't see illumination as a key word in the situation (some may be illuminated, some no)

In fact I don't see Illumination as a key word at all for "groups" (except arkati, and red moon cultists)

Of course you may meet individuals, but pretty sure there are more thanatari than illuminates in any location

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

32 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Of course you may meet individuals, but pretty sure there are more thanatari than illuminates in any location

This might vary by place. The Lunar Heartlands might have as much as 1% of the population Illuminated (I believe?), and there's no way they could have 1% Thanatari.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This might vary by place. The Lunar Heartlands might have as much as 1% of the population Illuminated (I believe?), and there's no way they could have 1% Thanatari.

I talked about the redmoon cultists as exception 🙂  but even

1% of HeartLands seems to me very high :

how many (%) farmers (or any workers even warriors) in the heartlands ? how many (%) would be illuminated (near 0 ?)

how many (%) nobles / scholars / priests ? then how many (%) would be illuminated (5% ? 10 % ? not so much ?)

note that I have no real idea, I ask about your figure but I have no source to demonstrate anything

 

I think that illumination (as "the power breaking the limits of the pc" or "the power calming chaos" - or not - ) is too quickly the main point during our irl discussions. Should be an addendum (" and there are few illuminates who may have another option" ) more than the first focus on our analysis.

 

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1% of HeartLands seems to me very high 

I vaguely recall seeing 1% for the Red Goddess in cult distribution numbers (which puts a floor on the percentage of Illuminates), but I could easily be mistaken here.

Also curious how high the percentage of Illuminated would go in Glamour itself.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I vaguely recall seeing 1% for the Red Goddess in cult distribution numbers (which puts a floor on the percentage of Illuminates), but I could easily be mistaken here.

yes I have something like that, but for the lunar cults (the "new gods" : seven mothers and affiliate ) not all the population (lodril, river, earth, etc...) but nothing more precise, and nothing I would bet on

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Kinda doubt that.  Hiding the taint is not an automatic feature of illumination and even when you learned how to, the physical effects of a chaotic feature (such as a third arm or broo's horns) can't be hidden - they won't just register as chaotic, that's all.  Now you could explain all this way within the Empire as a Chaos Gift but IMO you are still going to be ostracized.

 

And of course more obvious manifestations of Chaos are going to get the ire of some power non-Red Goddess cults in the Lunar Heartlands. For example, Yelm is an enemy of Bagog, Cacodemon, Krarsht, Krjalk, Primal Chaos, Thanatar, Thed, etc.  The Yelm cult is an enemy of the Crimson Bat, but the head of the Yelm cult, the Red Emperor, officially tolerates the Crimson Bat. 

So although Thanatar's existence is tolerated by the Red Emperor, the Thanatar cult needs to operate largely in the shadows. Broo are tolerated by the Red Emperor, but if they start acting broo-ish, they still get hunted down and killed (unless they can be made useful and sent against enemies of the Emperor). I imagine that religious riots and angry protests happen even in the Lunar Heartlands.

In game what that means is that Thanatar cults exist in the Lunar Heartlands, but they are likely covertly coopted by the Red Emperor and other Lunar officials. They are tolerated, so long as their actions do not threaten the social order or the Lunar religion. Of course, such cults chafe at such restrictions, so from time to time the Red Emperor uproots them.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

He or she skims off the magically powerful ones.   

The magically powerful slaves that don't have the connections to get them busted out of slavery or for someone to kick a fuss when they go missing in transit?  I'm having a hard time seeing that.  If you mean high POW slaves with little magic then the resulting head's slightly better than a magic crystal.  But a political prisoner like Duke Raus is going to be missed no matter if not by the corrupt officials that were paid to look the other way then by his kin.

So I'm really don't think this as a viable pathway to become powerful.  It's possible that a Thanatari will acquire a caravan of slaves to be transported but I think it more likely the Thanatari will disappear with the lot to digest at leisure rather than chance a fuss at the other end.  

 

 

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1% of HeartLands seems to me very high :

how many (%) farmers (or any workers even warriors) in the heartlands ? how many (%) would be illuminated (near 0 ?)

how many (%) nobles / scholars / priests ? then how many (%) would be illuminated (5% ? 10 % ? not so much ?)

note that I have no real idea, I ask about your figure but I have no source to demonstrate anything

The figure for the Heartlands Illuminates is from the AH Gods of Glorantha.   If 1% of the population is illuminated and 10% of the same population live in the cities, then it is more likely the proportion of urban illuminates is 10%.  This seems plausible to me.

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The magically powerful slaves that don't have the connections to get them busted out of slavery or for someone to kick a fuss when they go missing in transit?  I'm having a hard time seeing that.  If you mean high POW slaves with little magic then the resulting head's slightly better than a magic crystal.  But a political prisoner like Duke Raus is going to be missed no matter if not by the corrupt officials that were paid to look the other way then by his kin.

So I'm really don't think this as a viable pathway to become powerful.  It's possible that a Thanatari will acquire a caravan of slaves to be transported but I think it more likely the Thanatari will disappear with the lot to digest at leisure rather than chance a fuss at the other end.  

 

 

Raus might. Indeed have such friends on the Lunar side.  But Sartarite Rudolf son of Adolf, no, unlikely.  And if he was marked off given to the bat cult then what?  His friends can't be any more annoyed by the Thanatari fate than by the bat annihilation.  He was an unlucky rebel, no ransom, too bad.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
My phone's spelling scrambler.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Raus might. Indeed have such friends on the Lunar side.  But Sartarite Rudolf son of Adolf, no, unlikely.  And if he was marked off given to the bat cult then what?  His friends can't be any more annoyed by the Thanatari fate than by the bat annihilation.  He was an unlucky rebel, no ransom, too bad.

It's unlikely that Rudolf would be tranported long distances to feed the Bat in Heartlands, considering that is where the Thanatari being discussed in this thread are based.

[Squaredeal Sten]

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's unlikely that Rudolf would be tranported long distances to feed the Bat in Heartlands, considering that is where the Thanatari being discussed in this thread are based.

I have given an example of a Heartlands Thanatari skimming prisoners.  Will it really change everything if I name a Heartlands source of prisoners?

While rebels may be found anywhere, their fates are all similar.  Don't challenge Moonson!

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

I didn't say that an Illuminate was 'clean'. I was implying that Chaotic can mitigate his Chaotic condition with Illumination, but can't remove or ignore it, no more than [...] a human can ignore his Man Rune.

In case of draconic illumination overcoming the human rune is the point of the exercise. Lunar/Nysalorean illumination doesn't seem to have a goal like that, I agree, although I doubt that Jar-eel is ruled by her Man Rune any more.

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Lunar/Nysalorean illumination doesn't seem to have a goal like that

Instead, you can be all Man and all Beast, now that it doesn't have to sum up to 100!

[Jeff]

Something a lot of people seem unclear about - there is no universally accepted way to know something is Chaotic. Some cults claim to have magic that identifies chaotic things but that magic curiously fails when confronted with some obviously Chaotic entities. The Storm Bull cult is sworn to destroy Chaos and claims to be able to "sniff" Chaos. But even their senses fail to register some obviously Chaotic things - so clearly there is secret Chaos everywhere.

People with third arms, glowing eyes, weird misshapen bodies, goat heads, etc., are obviously Chaotic. In Theyalan or Malkionni lands such people are often accused of being Chaotic monsters and killed, or just lynched by angry mobs (assuming they can muster the courage to act). In the Lunar Empire such people are accepted as people and judged by their actions. That being said, iff there are unsolved crimes, such people are often accused of being active worshipers of evil Chaotic deities and blamed for the crimes. But they at least enjoy the official tolerance and protection of the Lunar rulers.

[EricW]

13 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Here is a grim scenario seed counter to that.   Feel free to use it in your game:

A Thanatar cultist achieves a job taking charge of prisoner of war slaves and moving them to Peloria.  This is a perfectly respectable Lunar government position achieved through good connections. Or maybe a contractor position which goes to the lowest bidder, and this is why he bids low.  Lunar logistics may vary in your Glorantha.

He or she skims off the magically powerful ones.   There is always a little shrinkage in a coffle.  Maybe some escape, yes that's what he writes down.    Maybe some were rebels sentenced to be crucified or fed to the Crimson Bat, and he just reports that this was done. Who audits that?  Maybe they died of natural causes or disease  or wounds suffered when they were captured.  Maybe he reports that one was disobedient and was flogged to death, it's necessary in enslaving people, maintains discipline you know.    As long as 90% arrive in Peloria, or he can attribute 80% arriving to bad luck, who will inquire deeply into this?  

His chest of heads may get heavier as the trip north goes on.  What's that? Just some souvenirs.

What a terrific if grim idea. If the cultist just uses "Consume Mind". The bat still gets their sacrifice, or the rebel is still crucified. Who would know? If they don't talk much when they are being crucified or fed to the bat, maybe the experience has driven them insane. That way the Thanatari gets to feast on the magic of the victims, and no chest of heads to give the game away.

[Squaredeal Sten]

19 hours ago, EricW said:

What a terrific if grim idea. If the cultist just uses "Consume Mind". The bat still gets their sacrifice, or the rebel is still crucified. Who would know? If they don't talk much when they are being crucified or fed to the bat, maybe the experience has driven them insane. That way the Thanatari gets to feast on the magic of the victims, and no chest of heads to give the game away.

That is a genius move!  You have a great career ahead of you as a Thanatari!  And thanks for pointing that spell out, as it is new and was not in the old Cult Compendium.  I have learned something.

I do note that spells gained by Consume Mind may still be limited by the caster's CHA.  So for  maximum versatility in magic plus magic points,  Create Head may still also be desirable.

On the other hand RQiG consolidates the old RQ2 [Cult Compendium page 300] Create Head spells into one [RBOM page 300] , essentially the old Create Major Head spell, which requires a week long ceremony (same as the old Create major head, but now you can't do the Minor head quickie, and you always need a cult holy day.)  This change may result in slowing the pursuit of knowledge by the Doomed One.  So some strategic judgment may be necessary.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Typing

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, metcalph said:

Kinda doubt that.  Hiding the taint is not an automatic feature of illumination and even when you learned how to, the physical effects of a chaotic feature (such as a third arm or broo's horns) can't be hidden - they won't just register as chaotic, that's all.  Now you could explain all this way within the Empire as a Chaos Gift but IMO you are still going to be ostracized.

The point being they won't detect as being chaotic.  Yes, the overt signs will be present, but not all chaos features have overt signs.  This is why Chaos features also have the "become a broo" chance.  This is the point at which your chaos features can no longer be hidden, and you can no longer pass as your original species.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Darius West