Jump to content

How to Prevent Resurrection?


Jex

Recommended Posts

So, part of a RuneQuest adventure I'm working on involves the adventurers investigating who's behind a string of murders, and it just belatedly occurred to me that the availability of resurrection may be a problem.  I know not everyone who dies is resurrected, obviously—Roleplaying in Glorantha does say that "Given the small size of the cult of Chalana Arroy, only a few people are ever resurrected"—but (a) it just happens that there is a priestess of Chalana Arroy in the village where the adventure takes place, and (b) I'd think that maybe if the authorities wanted to find out who's behind a murder spree they might consider it worth it to arrange for one of the victims to be resurrected so they can ask them who killed them.  Needless to say, if that happened, that might throw a bit of a monkey wrench in the scenario.

I know resurrection requires the spirit of the deceased to be defeated in spirit combat, so it's not a sure thing, but it seems like a bit of a cheat to say that conveniently all the murder victims' spirits win their spirit combats.  Plus it doesn't really make sense that the murderer would rely on that happening.

There is specifically a Stop Resurrection spell listed in the Red Book of Magic, but it's (a) a one-use spell, which isn't really a problem for the scenario (the murderer actually could be willing to permanently sacrifice his POW to make the victims stay dead), and (b) available only to Swords of Humakt, which is a problem (the murderer is, as it happens, an initiate of Humakt (or maybe sorta an ex-Humakti; it's complicated)—but he's only an initiate, not a Sword of Humakt, and I don't think there's any feasible way he could get his hands on that spell).

The Resurrect spell description says the body must be healed to 3 hit points, so I'd guess there's no resurrection if the body is missing, but unfortunately it's kind of necessary for the adventure for the bodies to be found.  If the head of the corpse is missing, would that prevent resurrection?  The description of the Resurrection spell doesn't say so, but it seems like it might be reasonable.  I could have the murderer remove his victim's heads and stash them somewhere.

I guess as a last resort, I could say that the poison used in the murders has a special property of preventing resurrection, but eh, that seems like an ugly kludge; I'm hoping for a more elegant way...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't sweat it. Convenient access to cheap Resurrection spells is a game fiction to make RuneQuest playable, given the ever-present risk of critical hits etc. If every NPC in the world had the same range of powers and easy access to Resurrection as player characters do, the world would rapidly become ridiculous. (Compare any MMO game on the market: many quest stories would simply break if NPCs could do what PCs routinely do)

I wouldn't waste any time writing contrived and convoluted explanations. If it ever comes up in play, just say no: the local Chalana Arroy priestess can't Resurrect anybody just now, as she's already spent her Rune points for this season healing sick kids. If you have players who like to niggle away at convenient game fictions so as to make the setting appear ridiculous, throw flaming sky-llama invasions at them until they settle down. (They'll get upset because those aren't in the rules. Good. That's the point)

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Follow @Nick Brooke advice.  Or, if you do want other options:

A missing head prevents Rez, and might throw suspicion elsewhere (on a Thanatari).

The Resurrect spell must be cast within a week of death, so if the bodies are well hidden and take more than a week to find that will  work.

If a victim is a Humakti it is very unlikely that a CA will try to Rez them.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any critical portion missing would prevent Ressurection, unless you consider that Heal Body can regrow parts of the body that are not limbs. Just remember that if you rule that way, that fixes reality in your game, unless your players are not like mine. So if you rule that NPCs acnnot be ressurrected if the heart is missing, that should apply also to PCs.

Lots of people practise head hunting besides Thanatari, and in my Glorantha the main reason is Ressurrection prevention. Although it does not say it explicitly, I consider that is why Yazurkial Blue Llama decapitated Sitzmag Redmoon and made a drinking cup of his skull, as I suppose Sitzmag (a scimitar of Yanafal Tarnils) had already been killed and ressurrected before (RQ:RiG p. 235). 

Taking heads and sticking them separate from the body is not only a show of justice in action, but in Glorantha makes it harder for the executed friends' to get them back. 

It also brings adventure hooks if the PCs need to recover some portion of someone important murdered before too many days pass. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it works best for the adventure if one of the bodies is found more or less immediately, and the victims aren't Humakti.  (Humakti can't be resurrected anyway, right?)  But  ooh, I think the missing heads / Thanatari connection could present an interesting red herring... I think that's what I may go with.

(Plus, there's another advantage of the missing heads business: if the PCs are nice and want to get the murder victims resurrected, they can potentially do so if they find the heads in time, and that gives them a reason to want to take the murderer alive so they can get him to tell them where the heads are.)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Anyone who could be resurrected could also be spoken to by a Shaman, for instance.

Wait... can they?  Is it that easy for a shaman to locate the spirit of a particular dead person in the Spirit World?  For that matter, would most spirits of the dead even be in the spirit world?  I thought they set out more or less immediately to head to the Underworld.  Sure, some stick around as ghosts, but I thought they were the exception.

(Hm... even if that's true, though, it might be interesting to have the spirit of one of the murder victims still around, to give the adventurers another way to solve the murders.  Investigating the murders isn't really the main plot of the adventure, so it doesn't matter that much if the players find a clever way around it, but I don't want it to be too easy.)

Okay, also I see there's a Summon Dead spell in the Red Book of Magic that could be used to speak to the murder victims, but that's not listed in Roleplaying in Glorantha so I'm not sure which cults have access to it.  Anyone know?  [EDIT: Never mind; it's in the old Gods of Glorantha boxed set, and it's a Rune spell associated with the cult of Ty Kora Tek.  So... not likely a PC will have access to it, though I guess it's not impossible.]

(Of course, even if the adventurers can talk to the spirits of the murder victims, that  doesn't mean they got a good look at their murderer... but they can still give some useful clues.)

Edited by Jex
Answered one of my own questions
Link to comment
Share on other sites

our glorantha may vary :

1 hour ago, Jex said:

Wait... can they?

yes first week the soul is near the body

1 hour ago, Jex said:

Is it that easy for a shaman to locate the spirit of a particular dead person in the Spirit World? 

depends on you, the time, etc... but first week...

 

now...

if the murder(s ?) are made with a shaman (or a shaman among the murderers), it is easy to no let the deads speak: the shaman sees them, bind them, and now they are off until your pcs find the enchantments...

Of course it is a blasphemy (some would say chaotic) :  the spirits cannot join the  death places so a lot of people would be at least angry, the family, the clan, the victims cults, the death cults (imagine a team of both humakti and  ty kora tek, of course protected by bab'sisters... a nightmare !)

 

so , there is an indication if you cannot join the spirits : find the shaman ! (other options are possible, but it is even fewer in my opinion).

 

1 hour ago, Jex said:

a Summon Dead spell in the Red Book of Magic

as you say, it is for a  specific "boring" cult  (2nd degree if you see the white bull campaign in youtube)


 

now what could say the spirits of the dead ?

remember they are in the other side... passing the frontier is a big deal, that is not just a travel, you lose one "dimension", your body. You see another one (or more)

If you ask /summon them, they will be angry: angry against you because you force them to pass again the frontier, against the murderers probably... so they would like revenge against against.. but what have they seen ? a shadow ? a disguised person ? a lot of people so many (> 3 !) they are unable to describe any one ?

so if you want to roll, try a INT roll, maybe a POW roll to, to see if the spirit is confused or not. If you want the spirit to be more or less confused... the spirit is more or less confused.

 

that is another reason to not resurrect people... people don't want to come back and if they are back, they are not the same, so you don't get back the lost, you get back a new one, with memory, for sure, with same shape of course, but with some trauma. If you(the clan/tribe/...) decide to resurrect someone, it is not for the dead, not for the family, not for pleasure. It is because that seems the best choice, in your opinion, to "save" the clan/tribe.

Edited by French Desperate WindChild
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jex said:

Wait... can they?  Is it that easy for a shaman to locate the spirit of a particular dead person in the Spirit World?  For that matter, would most spirits of the dead even be in the spirit world?  I thought they set out more or less immediately to head to the Underworld.  Sure, some stick around as ghosts, but I thought they were the exception.

You might find this helpful:

Quote

Here is what happens when you die:

Your soul separates from your body. For seven days the soul lingers near the body, drifting farther apart from it and developing spirit senses. It is like a yolk for the developing soul. When it is ready, the soul flies inward into the heart space, which is a mirror that cannot be fully penetrated until you are dead, or have acquired a heroquest initiation.

The Book of Heortling Mythology, The Court of Silence, page 58

Within the seven days you can be resurrected per the Resurrect or Seal Soul rune spells. Anyone who has the ability or magic to make them visible can see the spirit (Second Sight does not work). Bad people can bind the spirit. Communicating with the spirit is difficult, spirit speech is easiest, and the spirit may be in a state of trauma having in this case just been murdered.

After seven days, it goes onto the path of the dead that leads to the courts of judgement, where Daka Fal, judges them, and send them to the correct afterlife. This can only be accessed by experts (psychopomp worshippers, shaman and heroquesters).

You may also find this excellent two part video of the Tibetan Book of The Dead, narrated by Leonard Cohen helpful: https://youtu.be/AFgs2rZkOgU.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jex said:

Wait... can they?  Is it that easy for a shaman to locate the spirit of a particular dead person in the Spirit World?  For that matter, would most spirits of the dead even be in the spirit world?  I thought they set out more or less immediately to head to the Underworld.

The spirit hangs around their body for seven days (which is also why Resurrection is limited to that). After that they typically depart to the afterworld.

If you have read the RQ QuickStart, this is what happens with the shaman and the slain enemy tribeswoman.

Edited by Akhôrahil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The spirit hangs around their body for seven days (which is also why Resurrection is limited to that). After that they typically depart to the afterworld.

That's not the impression I get from the text.  Here's what Roleplaying in Glorantha says about what happens on death:

Quote

Upon death, the soul separates from the body. Over the next seven days, the soul travels through the Underworld to the Court of Silence, the gateway to the afterlife. Once there, the Judge of the Dead determines the soul’s fate, and it departs for whatever afterlife it is assigned. Prior to judgment, it is possible to resurrect an adventurer with powerful magic. After judgment, only a heroquest can bring the dead back to life.

The way that reads to me, the soul sets out on its journey through the Underworld more or less immediately; it just takes seven days for it to reach its final destination (whereupon resurrection is no longer possible).

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you have read the RQ QuickStart, this is what happens with the shaman and the slain enemy tribeswoman.

I've read the QuickStart, but the spirit of the slain enemy tribeswoman in that adventure is explicitly referred to as a ghost, which is a special case—not all dead people become ghosts.  The fact that that particular character in that adventure becomes a ghost doesn't mean that all spirits of the dead hang around their bodies.  In fact, the adventure suggests just the opposite; it specifically describes "the issue that ties her to this world" that must be resolved for her to move on.  Besides, the shaman in the adventure "says that the spirit of the dead Greydog woman should be put to rest, because he doesn't want another spirit wandering around lost in the badlands"—why would he be so worried about that if he knew she was just going to leave for the Underworld in seven days anyway?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Jex said:

That's not the impression I get from the text.  Here's what Roleplaying in Glorantha says about what happens on death:

See Scotty's quote above (it's the same in King of Sartar). Not sure why the rulebook has a different kind of description.

I'm unsure whether there would be any fundamental difference between the dead in this state - a ghost is a spirit that doesn't leave when it's supposed to.

Edited by Akhôrahil
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

See Scotty's quote above. Not sure why the rulebook has a different kind of description.

Yeah, oops, I didn't initially notice there were other posts between my last post and yours... was about to edit my post to acknowledge that, but since you just replied I'll just make a new reply instead.

Yes, I agree Scotty's quote from Heortling Mythology does pretty clearly say the soul lingers near the body.  But it seems to me that Roleplaying in Glorantha pretty clearly says it doesn't.  Huh.  Well, Heortling Mythology was published in 2010 (and was a compilation of material written earlier), and Roleplaying in Glorantha in 2019, so maybe it's a bit of a retcon?

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm unsure whether there would be any fundamental difference between the dead in this state - a ghost is a spirit that doesn't leave when it's supposed to.

Well, yeah, but that was precisely my point... not that ghosts are a fundamentally different type of entity, but that most spirits, unlike the ghost in the QuickStart, do leave when they're supposed to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMHO a group of players knowledgeable of Glorantha is likely to include someone who will suggest getting a shaman, or a divination, or a Summon Ancestor, or other magical investigation tools.  These are legitimate paths in a Gloranthan murder mystery and you ought to anticipate  them to stay consistent with the background.   If you have a shaman in the party it's a chance to do shaman stuff, the player will be disappointed if that path is closed off. AND. you could do a neat spirit world scene.  

  If you don't want it solved too quickly then you can take Scotty's suggestion that the spirit is traumatized and speaks unclearly,  in oracular fashion. 

But also anticipate that your players may miss other clues, and the magical path may actually be your last chance to bring the adventure to a successful conclusion.

A resurrection should be the players' last choice:  the magic should come at a high price, as French Desperate Windchild has pointed out,  it may not work, and you can place the mutilation obstacle and/ or the "used all my rune points" obstacle.

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
Next to last paragraph
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If you have a shaman in the party it's a chance to do shaman stuff, the player will be disappointed if that path is closed off. AND. you could do a neat spirit world scene.

Oh, I agree; I wasn't going to close it off entirely—I want to give the players a lot of different options for how they can approach the adventure.  Even if most spirits do embark on their journey immediately, I was going to have one of the murder victims stick around as a ghost so the adventurers could communicate with him if they had a shaman among them (or if they enlisted the aid of an NPC shaman)—I just was going to have him not have gotten a good look at his attacker, so he'd be able to give them some useful information but not give the whole game away.

(I don't think Summon Ancestor would apply, though, since, well, it literally summons the spirit of an ancestor of the caster, which the murder victims aren't.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Jex said:

That's not the impression I get from the text.  Here's what Roleplaying in Glorantha says about what happens on death:

Quote

Upon death, the soul separates from the body. Over the next seven days, the soul travels through the Underworld to the Court of Silence, the gateway to the afterlife. Once there, the Judge of the Dead determines the soul’s fate, and it departs for whatever afterlife it is assigned. Prior to judgment, it is possible to resurrect an adventurer with powerful magic. After judgment, only a heroquest can bring the dead back to life.

The way that reads to me, the soul sets out on its journey through the Underworld more or less immediately; it just takes seven days for it to reach its final destination (whereupon resurrection is no longer possible).

yep probably I am now "tainted" by the knowledge in this forum

 

another point hard to understand is that your soul as a lot of parts so my (own) interpretation

your soul needs one week to travel to the next part But this travel is not just a move, until you are totally in the "afterlife" *, a part of you (spirit) are here near the body and the rest, the part who will be "judge" is in the x place of the travel. Once this part of the soul is at least "judged", you start the rest of your life in the other worlds, and the spirit, last trace of your mundane disappear (or become an empty / unnamed spirit without any memory of you, as everything is beyond . that's a reason why there is this trauma, too many changes, and parts are forgotten

 

* or after - lives it seems but not sure that you may be found in different places

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The spirit might be contactable if it is hanging around, or it might not. If the scenario requires that it not be, then it isn't.

I don't think that Gloranthans have an exhaustive and accurate model for what happens between death and afterlife, and neither do the RuneQuest rules. It makes some general statements, but outside of that the specifics can vary as needed.

That's not to say that there aren't any rules. They say that magic has to have rules otherwise the narrative makes no sense, but that only needs to go so far. It also needs areas of doubt and uncertainty, rigidly defined or not. I'm sure the rules of quantum gravity are specific and perfect, but we just don't know what they are. We have some general ideas but that's it.

  • Like 6
  • Helpful 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would not make it easy for shamans, even if possible. They can contact spirits which they know who they are and where they dwell. Otherwise, it is an exploratory travel, which may be dangerous or unsuccessful. They may not recognize the dead soul neither know which path it took fot its travel to the Underworld, so looking for it is a true challenge.

I had the case (using the HQ rules) and allowed it only with the help of an Issaries priest because Issaries is a psychopomp.

Wind on the Steppes, role playing among the steppe Nomads. The  running campaign and the blog

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The LM spell Knowledge is another potentially instant mystery-wrecker, provided you count a corpse as an "item" (and even if not, just use it on the shirt with the hole from the knife in it). 

and a big one.

I think the only solution is to be disguised / hidden (magicaly or not) or things like that to avoid a lot of options

Murders should exist in glorantha and some should not be considered as "suicid mission" so there are some workaround to avoid the so powerful we (as irl people) see with the spirits or the spells

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and a big one.

I think the only solution is to be disguised / hidden (magicaly or not) or things like that to avoid a lot of options

Murders should exist in glorantha and some should not be considered as "suicid mission" so there are some workaround to avoid the so powerful we (as irl people) see with the spirits or the spells

We played a D&D murder mystery once, that clearly anticipated how the PCs would all break out Speak With Dead and stuff, but the perpetrator was Doppleganger, so...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apart from crimes of passion, I would expect most preplanned crimes consider the local magical abilities, usually Divination, and the possibility someone talks with the victim's spirit unless you bind the spirit first (a typical procedure for assassin shamans). Like in Stephen Brust's Dragaera series, I expect assassins use weapons new to them, and possibly taken from someone else to limit the information from Knowledge.

It makes sense Black Fang is a shamanic cult, as binding the dead spirit limits interrogation and makes ressurrection impossible. Just wait one week and let it go (getting caught with the bound dead spirit will be quite incriminating). Otherwise Thief cults have access to Block Divination for important jobs.

But in most cases disguise or a mask or scarf may be enough to confuse a lot of magic. If the initiate did not recognize his murderer, Divination cannot pinpoint him or her.

Just remember not to use your favorite iron sword or any other easy to recognize item.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The soul lingers..."

I have been wondering about the concept of the multi-partite elemental souls (five for Orlanthi, six for Yelmites, seven for Lunars) plus the spirit available to Daka Fal, and how well these hold together without being tied to the body any more.

There have been reconstruction quests where a (usually divine) entity's Other Side components get hunted down and re-assembled or re-integrated. Belintar's resurrection of Hendriki King Andrin might be such a case, with the Storm Soul modified or chained. (Separated from that Spirit of Freedom shown in the Prince of Sartar webcomic.)

 

A expedited cremation rite with enough consumption of the dead body should make a Heal Body unfeasible, even if the remains from that are treated with respect by the hostile cremators. (Happened in my game when an ambush to capture a major villain went slightly astray, involving an accomplice of the player heroes among the Pavis priesthood...)

Which again makes me wonder how much the recently afterlifed spiritual remains of the dead body experience its afterlife treatment. Is the usual practice to wait seven days before embalming or whatever the dead body, or do the mummification operators get to extract the brain stuff as soon as the body is declared dead? How much will such embalming traumatize the spirit, possibly creating a ghost?

  • Like 1

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...