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How to make dragon skin armour?


Cloud64

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9 hours ago, Darius West said:

If you want to get properly C'thulhu about it... Perhaps preserving the skin will cause the critter to start regenerating... Mwahaha!

If you want to get properly Cthulhu about it, you'd make the armor itself have Chaotic influences on the wearer, their companions, and the community in which they live

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12 hours ago, Darius West said:

If you want to get properly C'thulhu about it... Perhaps preserving the skin will cause the critter to start regenerating... Mwahaha!

Proper Cthulhu style would be to have the armor fade away as the wearer takes on the features of the slain foe, including its memories. Armor protection remains the same, but now provided by the wearer's body rather than the accoutrement. At some point, the dragon will awake into the nightmare of being restricted to a mostly human body.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 2/20/2023 at 6:39 PM, Cloud64 said:

tldr: A PC has taken some skin from a dream dragon they slew. They want to tun it into armour. Is there a precedent for this? They know it is horn-like and needs softening and moulding. How might this be done, what might they need to do this?

Sure, people have made all kinds of skins into armour.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:39 PM, Cloud64 said:

My PCs successfully slew Yerezum Storn, the dream dragon of Thunder Hills, and performed utuma on it, as requested by the dragonewts. Having a blade that can easily cut through dragon skin, one of them decided to do some skinning with the intent of getting themselves made a suit of dragon armour. A fine idea that I won’t deny them, but not one that I’m going to make easy –  it provides too many good story opportunities that are not to be wasted.

It makes sense, as a Heroic thing to do.

A lot of GMs would blanch at the idea and put a lot of obstacles in the way, but in theory it should be possible. Maybe unwise, but possible.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:39 PM, Cloud64 said:

Thus far the PC has spoken to a couple of armourers and one has taken the job on, admitting he doesn’t know how to work dragon skin and it’s on condition the PC finds out how he can do so – he’s a busy man, what with the Battle of the Queen’s being imminent. I’m treating this knowledge as long lost, perhaps known back in the days of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Research at Jonstown library has found some notes saying dragon scales can be softened first and then moulded to a shape, but they don’t state what will soften it or the exact technique. 

It should be doable, but you probably won't find anyone who has done it, this sounds like a one of a kind sort of thing.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:39 PM, Cloud64 said:

The head of Yerezum Storn has been taken to the dragonewts, so they are in the PC’s debt. Perhaps they know the answers, though it may be a sensitive and tactless question to ask of them.

Dragonewts normally wear Dragonbone armour, or at least the more advanced ones do, so maybe they aren't the best people to ask.

 

On 2/20/2023 at 6:39 PM, Cloud64 said:

So, to be determined is

  •     What will soften dream dragon skin?
  •     How exactly does one work the skin or scales?

Acid might do the job, but I would say that wouldn't I?

You might be able to boil it and scrape the hard scales off, leaving a skin. Or, you could take the scales off and use them to make dragonscale armour.

Maybe there is a dragonstone rock that dragons scratch themselves on that could be used. 

Whatever makes sense can be used.

On 2/20/2023 at 6:39 PM, Cloud64 said:

My thoughts are that the method will likely need 

  •     Hard to obtain material(s)
  •     Some specialised magic – possibly some alchemic sorcery provided by a Lhankor Mhy sage
  •     Some tricky technique that may be hard to master

Maybe, all make sense to me.

The armour maker might even have to HeroQuest to get the skills and knowledge, or can make the armour on a HeroQuest, but, again, I would say that.

Alternatively, look at Legend's Arms of Legend supplement, p56-58, that has a good guide to making armour from animal skins/hides. You could probably use them exactly as they are written. I doubt if I can copy them here, unfortunately.

 

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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3 hours ago, Eff said:

Why are those things problems? The PCs did indeed slay a dragon, did they not?

And they were WELL rewarded for the effort. The haul for killing Yerezum Storn [the antagonist in 'The Dragon of the Thunder Hills'] is as significant a reward as I've ever seen in an RQ game. Let me show you:

- +2d6 REP [3d6 if the party keeps the head and betrays the dragonewts]

- +1 CHA [+2 if they keep the head as above]

- An open-ended favor from a Tailed Priest stage dragonewt. +1d6 REP when it's used [assuming the party doesn't betray him]

- Founding a cult of their own, +1d6 REP +1 CHA

[total CHA reward limit of +3]

- An enchanted tempered iron helm, breastplate, and shield, each of which is already famous as a dragon-killer's panoply

- An enchanted tempered iron spear and javelin, each of which is already famous as dragon-slaying weapons.

- 4 additional hides of land

- a herd of 20 cattle from the royal stud

So let me ask the question again, what do the players need as a reward?

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15 minutes ago, svensson said:

And they were WELL rewarded for the effort. The haul for killing Yerezum Storn [the antagonist in 'The Dragon of the Thunder Hills'] is as significant a reward as I've ever seen in an RQ game. Let me show you:

- +2d6 REP [3d6 if the party keeps the head and betrays the dragonewts]

- +1 CHA [+2 if they keep the head as above]

- An open-ended favor from a Tailed Priest stage dragonewt. +1d6 REP when it's used [assuming the party doesn't betray him]

- Founding a cult of their own, +1d6 REP +1 CHA

[total CHA reward limit of +3]

- An enchanted tempered iron helm, breastplate, and shield, each of which is already famous as a dragon-killer's panoply

- An enchanted tempered iron spear and javelin, each of which is already famous as dragon-slaying weapons.

- 4 additional hides of land

- a herd of 20 cattle from the royal stud

So let me ask the question again, what do the players need as a reward?

None of this explains why it would be a problem if they had dragon-hide armor out of it too, if killing a dragon is such an unprecedented accomplishment. 

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1 hour ago, Eff said:

None of this explains why it would be a problem if they had dragon-hide armor out of it too, if killing a dragon is such an unprecedented accomplishment. 

Were it at my table, I would find the rewards for 'Dragon of Thunder Hills' entirely sufficient for a party of PCs. I'd be concerned about overloading player expectations that similar Monty Hauls were in their future, in addition to having to up-gun their future opponents.

If they wanted the dragonskin armor, they can be required to return King Benevenos's grave goods to his tomb with the thanks of a grateful Colymar tribe. And by 'thanks' I mean 'honoring him annually with gifts and magic points'. In fact, if you were ref'ing a clan relationship properly, it's not entirely out of the question that the clan chief or tribal king/queen demand the dragon's skin to become part of the tribal regalia or ancestral treasures.

There is a danger to a game of 'combat creep', where combat in RQ loses its edge and players start to think that they can wade through hoards of trollkin without getting hurt. Once your AP exceeds 10, that creep can become reality. High-speed/low-drag armor and weaponry should be awarded one at a time in RQ, not in huge mounds like it was some Forgotten Realms game. One of a referee's most difficult problems in any game is managing player greed for 'everything good, all at once'.  That is what I'm talking about.

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I agree, for the most part, with @svensson that the rewards are very high.  And the Dragon didn't seem all that tough, though that could be GM inexperience).  However, most of our PCs returned some of the loot - the iron weapons, because there were unsuitable for everyday use, or they didn't want to live with the oath to Benevenos. 

For example, my PC had the spear.  It is nice in normal combat.  It is priceless when fighting dragonsIf she were to break it in combat vs, say, trolls, the loss to the tribe is immense.  It's like using Leika's Black Spear in a normal melee - nice to have, but lose it or break it and you would be cursed by the Colymar forever.   So, she returned it - it really should be a Tribe item for use in extremis.

Also, she heard that the "Argrath guy" was into Dragons, and didn't want to be constrained by the oath.  For example, she still has that favor owed her by the Dragonewt.

Edited by Rodney Dangerduck
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56 minutes ago, svensson said:

Were it at my table, I would … 

In fact, if you were ref'ing a clan relationship properly…

Well, it's not at your table is it and, frankly, this isn't the first post of yours that I take as insulting the way I run my table. Not only that, you are making assumptions and don't seem to have paid much attention to what I've actually said.

So, let's look at what's actually happened at my table. King Berevenenos loaned the players his dragon slaying gear on the grounds that they return it after slaying his ancestral enemy. This they did, and now being aware of the Dragon Rise and the potential return of dragons the king's ghost has taken guardianship of the weapons until such time as they are needed to slay more dragons. So no, they don't have an iron panoply and the rest of his armoury. They also honoured the dragonewt pledge and returned the utuma klanth and others they found to the dragonewts. 

This is the first decent reward haul they've had in, let's see, five scenarios so far. They've previously made money, used it to fix up a damaged property in Jonstown as a nominal base, got a couple of spell matrices.  Why did they need a base? Because I'm letting them choose their Starter Set pregens and of my six current players five have chosen non-Sartarite characters. This is arguably problematic, but they arrived to drive the Lunars off at the Battle of Dangerford and stayed after making themselves useful in Jonstown.

Context: This is a club game.  Since Jan 2021, and because of the way we run that's 24x2hr sessions so far, I've had 10 players and the table size is 6. Personally I think that's too many, 4 would be my ideal for a number of reasons, but it's expected and does introduce more players to the game and the joys of Glorantha. Of the ten players, all but three have been new to RQ and Glorantha, and if I'm honest, I was pretty rusty having not played it myself since the 80s. And how it's moved on since then.

So, they're a disparate yet honourable bunch who've made themselves useful to two tribal leaders. Their relative neutrality has been useful in aiding communication between Orngerin Holdfast of Jonstown and Queen Leika. One thing I'm working on is giving them attachment to Sartar. The Old Tarshite, Nathem, has become Thane of Apple Lane after being asked by the people and seeking Leika's permission, which she granted on the grounds that having a link to the people of Tarsh could be useful in any upcoming troubles. The land she granted them for slaying the dragon is shared between six - gawd knows how we'll work that out, but it's hardly making any of them lord of the manor. What it does do is give them something to tie them to the area and the Colymar which will give their time adventuring in it more meaning. Aranda, Axe Maiden of Nochet, has taken on rallying worshippers for Orgovale Summer, a suitable task for an earth cultist, looking after the granddaughter of the goddess whose temples she is sworn to protect. Again, another tie to the area, and one the player is enjoying after feeling that Aranda was bit of a one trick wonder. In fact, running the cult may end up feeling like bit of a burden to them - we'll see how it goes. 

Now to the dragon armour. The player had the idea as they had in hand the utuma klanth which would make the cutting of the hide easy. Not one to stand in the way of a player's entertaining idea, I gave it a 'yes, but' (I prefer that to 'yes, and' because it is more often what we mean in game terms). I could have just said, 'Oh dear, the dragon's stopped dreaming of Yerezum Storn and the body suddenly fades away, skin an' all.' That would've been fun, wouldn't it? Of course not. Am I going to just let them walk into an armourer and say, 'Make this into a suit of armour for me, and by next Tuesday my good man'? Of course not. It's not going to be easy finding out how to do it, it's not going to be easy getting the ingredients to do it, and even when they've managed that, the process isn't going to be easy, could well go wrong and even if it works the armour will fade away before too long. I thought my OP made most of that that pretty clear. Plenty of entertainment to be had here, which could have been killed by two little letters, n and o.

I do find issues with how powerful PCs can be. All starting at initiate level and having a whole bunch of Rune spells is an overwhelming headache, for players and GM. Everyone has super healing; great, where's the real combat threat now? 'They've got a cult spirit, can I have one? What will it be?' I don't f%^7*%g know, there's nowt in the rules that tell us. Vishi the shaman is in the hands of a player who likes to power build and comes up with great and entertaining creative solutions that threaten to kill encounters flat, but bless him, he does give the table some great moments. I've not been afraid to retcon away some of his character choices for the sake of the game. 

I have a table of players who are bemoaning that we won't play again for two months (how our club system works), but I'm glad of that: it's the most demanding game I've GM'd since getting back into the hobby, and what I need is a rest. What I don't need is someone insinuating that I'm doing it all wrong. Me and my players have muddled through together, learning/relearning the rules and the setting and having good times and frustrating times as we've gone, and their enthusiasm suggests to me that between us we're getting our quest for MGF about right  

My thanks to all who have made some great, constructive suggestions in this thread, many of which I'll take on and bend into a shape that suits how my Glorantha varies. I'm open to constructive critique - it's the only way to get better at something, but gatekeepie negativity… Time for me to bite my tongue.

 

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1 hour ago, Cloud64 said:

Well, it's not at your table is it and, frankly, this isn't the first post of yours that I take as insulting the way I run my table. Not only that, you are making assumptions and don't seem to have paid much attention to what I've actually said.

 

1. No insult is intended in any way, shape, or form. 'If it were my table' is just another way of saying 'if it were my decision'. You will do what you think is good for your group and there isn't a single thing I could do to stop you - - and I never intended to stop you to begin with. Your Glorantha Will Vary.

2. I apologize that you feel insulted.

3. Yes, I sometimes do trip up and misread or misinterpret the OP. It's a bad habit and one that I work on.

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1 hour ago, Cloud64 said:

and now being aware of the Dragon Rise and the potential return of dragons the king's ghost has taken guardianship of the weapons until such time as they are needed to slay more dragons

Very good move to have Berevenos take back the anti-dragon items.  This really should have been suggested in the scenario.

 

1 hour ago, Cloud64 said:

'They've got a cult spirit, can I have one?

Our group has the same problem, just with elementals instead of cult spirits!

Sounds like you are on the right track for your group.  Good luck.

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It seems to me that the PCs earned the armor (especially if you require them to do some work to figure out how to actually make armor out of it). Taking that away by having it fade away or having dragonewts come after it feels a little mean-spirited to me. So rather than making it impossible to make or taking it away, it seems to me the way to deal with this is to make it a really good but not game-balance destroying set of armor. So give it some combination of A) better armor points than simple leather, B) lighter encumbrance value than normal for its armor points, and C) some small bonus that normal leather armor doesn't provide. For example, For example, it might have the AP of light scale, but 1 less ENC and grants the wearer 1 pt of Countermagic or Spirit Screen while still being compatible with Protection and Shimmer. That's a cool treasure item that doesn't unbalance the game. 

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9 hours ago, svensson said:

1. No insult is intended in any way, shape, or form. 'If it were my table' is just another way of saying 'if it were my decision'. You will do what you think is good for your group and there isn't a single thing I could do to stop you - - and I never intended to stop you to begin with. Your Glorantha Will Vary.

2. I apologize that you feel insulted.

3. Yes, I sometimes do trip up and misread or misinterpret the OP. It's a bad habit and one that I work on.

Thank you. Apology accepted. 

I am very aware that casual online writing can be misinterpreted because, without emotional nuance, it often sounds harsher than intended. One of my university psychology lecturers actually studied this for her PhD, specifically in email, and that was at the birth of the www. Still, my ire did rise. We all need to be careful and considerate how we write, and I'm no stranger to accidentally getting it wrong myself. I have a policy of: if you've nothing nice to say, say nothing. Sorry I broke that. It'd be a pleasanter world if humanity learnt to apply that to social media. 

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8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Very good move to have Berevenos take back the anti-dragon items.  This really should have been suggested in the scenario.

Certainly as an option. That the scenario outlines costs of getting it altered to fit, the intention seems to be for a character to keep it. 

8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our group has the same problem, just with elementals instead of cult spirits!

Well, not being familiar with cult spirits, that's what I let the player summon, a small fire elemental. I need to look at the spirit lore more, but this sort of issue is what I expect the GM's Guide to cover. Or maybe cult spirits will be in the cult tomes. 

8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Sounds like you are on the right track for your group.  Good luck.

Thank you.

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8 hours ago, Bohemond said:

It seems to me that the PCs earned the armor (especially if you require them to do some work to figure out how to actually make armor out of it). Taking that away by having it fade away or having dragonewts come after it feels a little mean-spirited to me. 

Indeed, how long it takes to fade needs careful consideration.  I'll probably align it and the time the dragon's body takes to fade - I'm letting it hang about as evidence of their deeds, and Orgovale wanting it as a reminder of the dangers of dragonkind. 

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On 2/21/2023 at 2:45 PM, svensson said:

So let me ask the question again, what do the players need as a reward?

Who in their right mind would give them all that loot anyway especially when the dragon isn't really that tough!?

Say, she keeps most items as cult artifacts and also if the cult is only good locally most PC's that travel internationally (every PC I've know in 30 years of Rune Quest) wouldn't be interested, past experience.

I think the adventures/scenarios with discovering how to enchant dragon armor and the whole process of making it, maybe with help from the smith from Apple Lane all wrap things up nicely. IMO.

Again, as its "your" fantasy world the armor doesn't have to fade, especially if it has been enchanted. Rune Quest is great because its flexible for each GM.

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This is something I had not thought about and is giving me some pause for thought.

I am combined with Six seasons in Sartar and there may be some tie ins which make dragon skin armour interesting , I'll have to see when my players get there.

An initial thought is to look at the Dragonewt armouring skill, with donning the dragon skin armour being a ritual process which empowers it giving it potentially etra armour if well done

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One suggestion for maintenance. especially if you feel the armor is "too good".  Charge a periodic "maintenance fee".  The PCs need to pay some skilled armorer X amount of money (or something) each year.  Or, if you prefer more mystical / magical, they need to sacrifice 1 POW a year to renew the bond.  (the exact rate may vary).

One of our PCs has allied with a very powerful Umbroli (giant air elemental) and must renew the bond with a period sacrifice of POW.

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Might I humbly suggest that you not have the armor automatically fade entirely away?

Bear with me, here.

My idea works thus:  the True Dragon -- whoever it is, wherever it is -- is still somehow linked to the preserved skin.  It still touches their dreams.

So yes, the skin starts to fade/weaken.  Maybe the PCs were already expecting this, maybe not & they go consult the sages and discover this has been the case in one or more prior known instances.

Other things happen, too:  sometimes it thickens/strengthens; sometimes a supple joint grows hard; sometimes the color/pattern changes.  Once it turns invisible -- not the adventurer, just the armor, looks like they're only wearing the padded underlayer.

Occasionally -- at the GM's discretion -- the PC has a weird dream of their own, or experiences something in a "draconic"way (GM's option what that means; it might be having a total lack of comprehension on a "Homeland Lore" for a day (auto-fumble all rolls), or talking in Auld Wyrmish without noticing, etc).

One morning they wake up, and find they are wearing the armor they had taken-off and packed the night before... but the camp sentries swear that the PC never got up, all night long.

Let the armor fade far enough that the PC decides it's not protective-enough any longer.  But the next time they get crit'ed, instead have the armor in that one location become the piece from the dragonskin set, and stop the (normally armor-bypassing) crit.  Not that such a thing will happen again, but it hints that maybe they can't just set it aside like any other mundane item:  they are themselves now tied up in the Dream of the Dragon!

Etc etc etc... keep it going for as long as the player and the table remain interested.

Maybe, in time, it will fully & permanently fade.
 

Maybe it will come back as the outfit they are buried/burned/etc in, when they die.

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15 hours ago, Cloud64 said:

You might indeed, and thank you for a lot of creative ideas. I shall shamelessly nick them. I know the player will enjoy such shenanigans. 

Nick away!  But also, customize to the PC; use these more as inspiration or pointers.
Consult their Passions, and Runes; and consider the player themselves, their tastes & interests:  lean-in on combat-relevant oddities if they specially relish combat, etc.

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