How to make dragon skin armour?

[Cloud64]

This post contains minor spoilers for The Dragon of Thunder Hills scenario, and for any of my players, so if you see this Gareth & co, stop reading 😉

I’d be grateful of some help from the glorious depths of the forum hive mind. I'm after creative suggestions to how a PC can resolve an in-game task.

tldr: A PC has taken some skin from a dream dragon they slew. They want to tun it into armour. Is there a precedent for this? They know it is horn-like and needs softening and moulding. How might this be done, what might they need to do this?

My PCs successfully slew Yerezum Storn, the dream dragon of Thunder Hills, and performed utuma on it, as requested by the dragonewts. Having a blade that can easily cut through dragon skin, one of them decided to do some skinning with the intent of getting themselves made a suit of dragon armour. A fine idea that I won’t deny them, but not one that I’m going to make easy –  it provides too many good story opportunities that are not to be wasted.

The Bestiary describes dream dragon skin as ‘horny skin’, so basically hard but workable with the right technique. Some historical research tells me that antler was often softened before being worked, by boiling or possibly application of mild acid. This gives us something to run with as technique.

Thus far the PC has spoken to a couple of armourers and one has taken the job on, admitting he doesn’t know how to work dragon skin and it’s on condition the PC finds out how he can do so – he’s a busy man, what with the Battle of the Queen’s being imminent. I’m treating this knowledge as long lost, perhaps known back in the days of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Research at Jonstown library has found some notes saying dragon scales can be softened first and then moulded to a shape, but they don’t state what will soften it or the exact technique. 

The head of Yerezum Storn has been taken to the dragonewts, so they are in the PC’s debt. Perhaps they know the answers, though it may be a sensitive and tactless question to ask of them.

So, to be determined is

•     What will soften dream dragon skin?
•     How exactly does one work the skin or scales?

My thoughts are that the method will likely need 

•     Hard to obtain material(s)
•     Some specialised magic – possibly some alchemic sorcery provided by a Lhankor Mhy sage
•     Some tricky technique that may be hard to master

 

All suggestions gratefully received.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We ruled that the dream ended a day or two later, and the skin disappeared.

If you prefer, have the PCs put in a lot of time, effort, and money, then have the real dragon stop dreaming at a key time, and the armor will disappear.  🙂

[Cloud64]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

We ruled that the dream ended a day or two later, and the skin disappeared.

If you prefer, have the PCs put in a lot of time, effort, and money, then have the real dragon stop dreaming at a key time, and the armor will disappear.  🙂

Thanks. Well, the Bestiary entry suggests that rather than rotting, a dream dragon body takes a few years to fade. At the moment I'm letting it lay outside of the Queen's Temple (as the PCs have renamed her tomb now Orgorvale is awakened) as evidence of the great deed of the 'Wyrm Slayers', as the merry band have now egotistically dubbed themselves.

I think rather than brutally having it disappear in an instant, having it fade over time, reducing in efficacy as it does, could be the way to go. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Cloud64

[Agentorange]

First catch your dragon.......

[Joerg]

You might remember the warrior dragonewt by the name of Inoi Sessele in Griffin Mountain

Spoiler

who had their skin made into a (magical) armor, and who went to great pains to find the skin and its wearer in order to eat the skin and take revenge on the wearer (and if it had passed on from the manufacturer, that individual too).

Dream Dragons don't exactly re-incarnate after having undergone utuma, although they might well be a recurring dream of their "ancestor", and at the very least they will be something like a piece of memory for the dreaming dragon.

Now, if somebody successfully bonded with an armor made from that dragon's skin (or possibly a whole set of matching armors, possibly for the whole party, considering the size of such a dream dragon), that piece of dream and/or memory may be (temporarily) lost to the dreaming dragon, but keep drawing magic from it. Sooner or later, the Inoi Sessele story might have to be acted out by that dreaming dragon, or at least by some dream dragon emanated in stead of the slain one.

Do true dragons shed skin and/or scales? If they do, do they routinely devour what they shed to avoid being targeted via sympathetic magic? Can they overlook small pieces (much like Siegfried did not notice the linden leaf on his shoulder)?

There is a remote chance that dream dragon material that is destined to disappear after some time (often only after years) might be stabilized by bits and pieces of the dreaming True Dragon. And given that dragons can pull their environment in to form a gigantic body, there may be ambient former material of the dragon in the region, possibly as soil or rock.

If that dreamer was the Brown Dragon, residual draconic matter will be at the site of the New Lunar Temple, with some ruins possibly still accessible after the eating. And possibly there will have been people visiting that site and taking souvenirs, such s dust or temple pieces or...

 

TLDR: there is some creative potential here that might be fun to explore.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Cloud64 said:

I think rather than brutally having it disappear in an instant, having it fade over time, reducing in efficacy as it does, could be the way to go. 

I agree, that's a better way to play it!

Maybe the PCs will then contact the Dragonnewts, or, better yet, the dreaming dragon, to find ways to preserve or even increase the armor's effects.

But - remember the PCs' oath to Berevenos.  If one or more of them made such as oath.  I won't say more cause it's a possible spoiler...

Edited February 20, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Cloud64 said:

I think rather than brutally having it disappear in an instant, having it fade over time, reducing in efficacy as it does, could be the way to go. 

I'd take this approach as well. And it could have interesting effects: perhaps one day they find that one particular location is missing altogether (1 specific hit point), or in another place it has "thinned" (still covers, but 1 less AP), or perhaps the dragon has dreamed something further and now a location is thicker, but doesn't allow certain mobility.

3 hours ago, Cloud64 said:

Thus far the PC has spoken to a couple of armourers and one has taken the job on, admitting he doesn’t know how to work dragon skin and it’s on condition the PC finds out how he can do so – he’s a busy man, what with the Battle of the Queen’s being imminent. I’m treating this knowledge as long lost, perhaps known back in the days of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Research at Jonstown library has found some notes saying dragon scales can be softened first and then moulded to a shape, but they don’t state what will soften it or the exact technique. 

One possibility is to go find Farang Forash at Tink and ask him since he lived in the days of the EWF (or possibly Delecti knows too, but his price might be "high"). Or perhaps there is some ancient treatise or fragments of one at the Jonstown LM temple (or one of the other LM temples). 

Let's assume Craft(leatherworking or armoring) is the base skill needed. You could either apply a substantial penalty (e.g. -50%), or require a special/critical to succeed, or determine that there is a new skill Craft (dragon armor) that starts at 1/5 of their base Craft (I might lean towards the last).

Additional knowledge from a treatise or someone who knows would either counter some of the penalty (even all of it if you take that approach), or adds to their base chance at the craft thus increasing the chance of a special/crit, or adds some % to the Craft (dragon armor) specialty skill.

 

[John Biles]

This suggestion is based on how lizard skin is processed into lizard leather.

First, you salt the skin to preserve it.  Once you're ready to go to work, you bathe it to get the salt off.

Then you soak it in lime (not lime juice, but the stuff made from marble) - this removes scales, nails, mucins, natural greases, and fats.  It also splits the fibers so the collage in the skin can be worked.

But then you have to delime the skin because if left on too long, you get goo.  Citric or Acetic Acid are ideal.  

Then you pickle the skin to make it even more acidic so your tanning agents will work.  

The next step is to get a special tub which won't be destroyed by the special dwarven chemicals you need which convert it from organic skin to in-organic leather.  

You then shave the leather to degrease it and make it an even thickness.

You then get a clay pot and soak the leather in a special bath using hard to get water and elven herbs to make it supple instead of stiff.

Then you hang it to dry and carefully clean it.

Then you can dye it and it's ready to turn into armor.

 

[Cloud64]

6 minutes ago, John Biles said:

This suggestion is based on how lizard skin is processed into lizard leather.

<slapsforehead> Why didn't I think to look that up? Got a bit fixated on it being horn and thus hard to work, I think. Thanks v much for the detail. It's a good starter-for-ten for a process. 

[Cloud64]

31 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd take this approach as well. And it could have interesting effects: perhaps one day they find that one particular location is missing altogether (1 specific hit point), or in another place it has "thinned" (still covers, but 1 less AP), or perhaps the dragon has dreamed something further and now a location is thicker, but doesn't allow certain mobility.

One possibility is to go find Farang Forash at Tink and ask him since he lived in the days of the EWF (or possibly Delecti knows too, but his price might be "high"). Or perhaps there is some ancient treatise or fragments of one at the Jonstown LM temple (or one of the other LM temples). 

Let's assume Craft(leatherworking or armoring) is the base skill needed. You could either apply a substantial penalty (e.g. -50%), or require a special/critical to succeed, or determine that there is a new skill Craft (dragon armor) that starts at 1/5 of their base Craft (I might lean towards the last).

Additional knowledge from a treatise or someone who knows would either counter some of the penalty (even all of it if you take that approach), or adds to their base chance at the craft thus increasing the chance of a special/crit, or adds some % to the Craft (dragon armor) specialty skill.

 

All good stuff, thanks. Farang Forash is not someone I've heard of. Time to go off down another Glorantha rabbit hole I guess 🙂
 

Edit: What a fascinating character, and perfect for my needs. The write up in Pegasus Plateau seems to hint that he was not originally human: '…he is reasonably friendly to humans', and he 'is guarded by six beaked dragonewts'. Lots to work with there. Sorala (Lhankoy Mhy pre-gen) is in the party, and she is fascinated with EWF, so the party have multiple motivation for this trip; sure I can find more to tempt the other characters. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Cloud64

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Cloud64 said:

The write up in Pegasus Plateau seems to hint that he was not originally human: '…he is reasonably friendly to humans', and he 'is guarded by six beaked dragonewts'.

There was a longer writeup in the HQG Sartar Companion (not currently available), but it noted: "Known as the “Speaker of All Languages,” Forang Farosh is a survivor of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Originally bound as a special functionary during the tenth century, his spirit was later rebound by an enemy and survived the destruction of the Empire. Forang Farosh recently possessed the body of an adventurer and bound the hapless victim’s spirit into the trap. This kind of Soul Exchange is rare, but relieves Forang Farosh of commanding a possessed body. Forang Farosh now stays in the squalid town of Tink and will not leave it. He lives in the inn and is reasonably friendly to humans. He wears crystalline sunglasses and strange clothing, his own beautifully hand-sewn version of the EWF priestly garb.... Forang Farosh holds court at a dark table in the back of the [Dragon Inn]."

When my players encountered him, he was definitely human (and I played him that way), but could have been something else and now wearing a human body.

[svensson]

Ask yourself.... Do you really want a pissed off beaked dragonewt on your trail forever? You see, the violated dragonewt can infallibly track his skin. And if you kill him, he'll come back again. Oftentimes, he comes back with friends.

They may not know who you are, they just know you have what they want. If you're looking for ransom, they really don't understand concept very well. They do, however, possess a very special sets of skills, skills learned in multiple lifetimes. Skills that make them a nightmare for thin-skins like you. If you give the armor back right now, the will [probably] not look for you, but if you don't, they will look for you. And they will find you and they will kill you. [with a respectful nod to Bryan Mills 😁]

Keeping a set of dragonewt armor is tantamount to signing your own death warrant. But if that's your thing, well, party on, Wayne.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by svensson

[jajagappa]

56 minutes ago, svensson said:

Do you really want a pissed off beaked dragonewt on your trail forever?

Quite true, but the OP is asking about Dream Dragon armor, not dragonewt. And since they noted that their PC's had liberated the Dream Dragon from its mundane shackles, it is quite feasible that the Dream Dragon leaves/sheds its skin as a token of appreciation for however long its dream remains. 

[svensson]

Huh.

I would possibly let a few scales survive for, say, a breastplate, shield or helm, enough for one or two players. But a full suit? Um, NOPE.

I'm gonna presume that the OP did the dragon hunt in the GM Pack. If so, even with returning the Obsidian Blade to the Dragonewts, the rewards for that quest are significant.. up to and including founding a cult!... and the material rewards especially so. If that's the scenario the GM ran, then there isn't any need for dragon skin armor at all. A full panoply of Orlanthi dragon hunter gear is plenty and then some.

My opinions are taken from Greg's article in The Runequest Companion and Different Worlds about Dragonewt armor.

[Erol of Backford]

Possibly the Scholar Wyrm, Windwhistler, Eyes-Shut and Forang Forash are all sources for "how to" when it comes to dragon armor. I recall someone writing as part of a scenario that Windwhister actually shed its skin and then allowed a baboon to cut armor from it?

Say one of the above teaches you the Enchant Dragon Armor Ritual as payment for helping to recover an artifact which will help restore the EWF. This enchantment allows you to somehow avoid any future retribution from dragons or possibly somehow (not sure how) makes you visible as a dragon-kind friend?

You kill a dream dragon that happens to be ravaging the countryside. Once you have the enchant ritual you take some scales to make armor which all parallels say making leather armor or cuirbouilli? You aren't taking the skin off a dead dragonewt who's coming to look for you.

I posted something a while back that a purplish-indigo, prismatic-psychedelic scale mail armor would be really unique and especially attention drawing. Stylish and trendsetting but you'd be easy to track down unless very well cloaked and disguised.

It would be easy for ay the Lunars to track you down if you were wanted for questioning... 

[Erol of Backford]

9 minutes ago, svensson said:

I would possibly let a few scales survive for, say, a breastplate, shield or helm, enough for one or two players. But a full suit? Um, NOPE.

Why wouldn't you be able to get several sections of armor from a large creature's skin or a full suit or more? When I was a GM/DM 30 years ago I'd have allowed it. More game fun and it would've generated a long list of quest/scenario hooks for PC's.

I suppose that asks the question how many size points of leather do you need to make a certain size suit of leather armor and go from there. If you were to slay a SIZ 70 dragon maybe half the SIZ could be used for armor if skinning rolls were succeeded and a certain "craft dragon skin" skill was learned, again the quartet of subject matter experts may need to be paid a visit: Scholar Wyrm, Windwhistler, Eyes-Shut and Forang Forash.

[svensson]

36 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why wouldn't you be able to get several sections of armor from a large creature's skin or a full suit or more? When I was a GM/DM 30 years ago I'd have allowed it. More game fun and it would've generated a long list of quest/scenario hooks for PC's.

I suppose that asks the question how many size points of leather do you need to make a certain size suit of leather armor and go from there. If you were to slay a SIZ 70 dragon maybe half the SIZ could be used for armor if skinning rolls were succeeded and a certain "craft dragon skin" skill was learned, again the quartet of subject matter experts may need to be paid a visit: Scholar Wyrm, Windwhistler, Eyes-Shut and Forang Forash.

A dream dragon's physical form fades if it is 'slain'... you don't actually kill a dream dragon, you just change it's dreams. It fades as quickly as the referee says it does, but there are RQG books that quote a 1 AP per year rate. Those same citations caution referees in flippantly handing out dragon-skin armor. This isn't the Forgotten Realms where dragons are color-coded, classified by threat levels, and are so common as to have dragon skin armor as a common reward. Anyone wearing a dragon's skin will have a unique item. So IF the referee even allows such an over-powered item in their game, the cost of getting the hide made into armor should be a full year's income AT MINIMUM. And even then the Chief Priest of your temple and/or you clan chief or tribal king will wonder out loud why you didn't gift the armor to temple, clan, or tribe for the betterment of all.

And if the player does somehow get a set of dragon skin armor, every other knucklehead with blade longer than a butter knife will be challenging the famous dragon killer to claim the armor. Humans are, after all, a Hell of a lot easier to kill than dream dragons! Even Heroes-with-a-capital-H like Jar-Eel or Harrek might take the time to 'visit' the steading of the PC to get such a prize.

Lastly, given the rewards of the scenario, I really do think that handing out the materials for dragon skin armor is too much. The players get 3 pieces of enchanted iron armor, two iron weapons, a bunch of Fame, more land, possibly a raise in social status, the opportunity to found their own freaking cult AND an open ended 'favor' from a dragonewt priest. What the Hell ELSE do they need, fer cryin' out loud?

Edited February 21, 2023 by svensson

[EricW]

You could go all Cthulhu on it, and have the dream dragon pursuing players to get its skin back. Maybe over time the dragonewt gratitude could turn to hostility. You don’t need to explain why, what human understands draconian right action?

[Erol of Backford]

28 minutes ago, svensson said:

Those same citations caution referees in flippantly handing out dragon-skin armor.

If the armor is the same as bronze (I think 8AP in 2 different scenarios IIRC) but weighs a bit less encumbrance and is more comfortable what's the big hullabaloo about?

[Squaredeal Sten]

The Bestiary seems to present a typical dream dragon - but will you really encounter a typical one? Presumably they differ as much as anyone else's dreams may differ from night to night.

But given the Bestiary, dream dragon skin is typically 7 points while they are alive.  As a comparison, mammoth or mastodon skin is 6.  Rhinoceros hides are a 7 (p.156).

i have seen a section of elephant skin, tanned / preserved and on display.  It was thick stuff! 

So I would consider it possible that dream dragon skin is not suitable for flexible armor that any human can wear like stock 2-point leather armor.   It's just too heavy per foot of coverage.  as well as not flexible.

But a piece might be made into a shield which would protect better than the usual leather shield, though it would also be heavier.  Or maybe a breastplate, just as some Gloranthans wear turtle shell breastplates. 

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, Cloud64 said:

 

•     What will soften dream dragon skin?
•     How exactly does one work the skin or scales?

My thoughts are that the method will likely need 

•     Hard to obtain material(s)
•     Some specialised magic – possibly some alchemic sorcery provided by a Lhankor Mhy sage
•     Some tricky technique that may be hard to master

Suggestions:

What will soften dream dragon skin?  How exactly does one work the skin or scales?

While it continues to exist, Dream Dragon skin will be much like Dragonewt Skin, given that Dragon Dreams like others are based on infantile wish fulfillment.  Such skin can be made pliable with a corrosive (acid) which has had its potency reduced by mixing with water.  A good tanner will be able to strip the skin of collagen and fat, and render it cuttable, and pliable at least at the joints.  The scales are essentially large plates, and will need treatment to remove flesh, and collagen.  The plates then need to be drilled with holes and then sewn onto or into the surface they will become a part of.

Hard to obtain material(s)?  Yes definitely.  This is not Dragonewt skin armor we are dealing with here.

Some specialized magic – possibly some alchemic sorcery provided by a Lhankor Mhy sage ?

The great problem is that the Dream Dragon will begin to dissolve rather than rot.  This can be arrested by crystallizing the dream hide into existence.   This will require crushing magic crystals (high in Magic and Stasis runes.  The point value of the crystals should be equal to the total AP of the hide that will cover all locations)  into a fine powder, which will require a pressure tested iron (steel) mortar and pestle and giant strength (15d6 damage bonus) to provide the force.  It will also require dinosaur hide of a similar thickness.  The crystal powder needs to be dissolved into a Potency 17 acid along with dreamweed (illusion) and dinosaur or wyvern blood (or any blood with high Dragon or Dragonewt Rune count, but not Dream Dragon blood)  until the concentration reaches Potency 10 through saturation.  The dinosaur hide needs to be of a mass equal to that of the armor and it must be  dissolved completely in the potency 10 acid until it is reduced to Potency 5 through saturation.  The remaining potency 5 solution needs to be reduced to potency 1 through dissolving anything with a high concentration of Stasis Runes until the potency is reduced to 2.  This remaining brew is then painted over the dream dragon armor in successive layers to replace material that has been lost to dissolution back into the stuff of dreams.  The sorcery spell Preserve Item is also advisable during this process to keep the entirety in a matrix that is conducive to reforming (this spell will pretty much guarantee success (99%) if the other conditions are met, otherwise it is only 65% likely to work).  The quantity of acid that will be required should be in the gallons, and the coatings should be applied with a hyssop fibre  brush or broom (Spirit Rune).

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

You could go all Cthulhu on it, and have the dream dragon pursuing players to get its skin back. Maybe over time the dragonewt gratitude could turn to hostility. You don’t need to explain why, what human understands draconian right action?

Dream Dragons are the subconscious wickedness of True Dragons that have taken on a life of their own like a Tulpa.  The True Dragon is likely going to be ashamed of their wayward dream, but the creature itself is likely gone after it dies.  

If you want to get properly C'thulhu about it... Perhaps preserving the skin will cause the critter to start regenerating... Mwahaha!

[EricW]

39 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps preserving the skin will cause the critter to start regenerating... Mwahaha!

I like it - hanging on to a piece of a bad dream 🙂

[svensson]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:13 PM, Erol of Backford said:

If the armor is the same as bronze (I think 8AP in 2 different scenarios IIRC) but weighs a bit less encumbrance and is more comfortable what's the big hullabaloo about?

Well there's a couple things.

As @Squaredeal Sten points out, there are NO 'typical' dream dragons. Each one is a unique creature, a unique fragment of a True Dragon's dreams. A 'living' dream dragon's skin with 12 AP isn't unreasonable [reduced to 9 or 10 after tanning].

And it's not just about the statistics. There is the fame and notoriety of owning such a prestigious piece of gear. Tempered and Enchanted Iron is utterly common in comparison to being 'The Guy That Owns Dragon Scale Armor'. And how the Hell else is one going to claim the title 'Dragonslayer' without proof of this magnitude. The dragon skin could be just augmented cuirboulli, say 4 or 5 AP, and it would STILL be worth the fame and glory attached to the gear.

Here in 21st Century Earth, we've had the notions of 'proving your worth' and 'glory' knocked out of us. Two World Wars and a neverending series of brushfire wars will do that. But in Glorantha, fame and glory are the bread and butter of every professional warrior. Defaming a man's reputation is a killing matter and many a boy has lost his life in pursuit of glory, fame, reputation, and notoriety. Owning the ONLY verified suit of Dragon Skin Armor would be a huge cachet to a warrior name and fame.

Edited March 9 by svensson

[Eff]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Well there's a couple things.

As @Squaredeal Sten points out, there are NO 'typical' dream dragons. Each one is a unique creature, a unique fragment of a True Dragon's dreams. A 'living' dream dragon's skin with12 AP isn't unreasonable [reduced to 9 or 10 after tanning].

And it's not just about the statistics. There is the fame and notoriety of owning such a prestigious piece of gear. Tempered and Enchanted Iron is utterly common in comparison to being 'The Guy That Owns Dragon Scale Armor'. And how the Hell else is one going to claim the title 'Dragonslayer' without proof of this magnitude. The dragon skin could be just augmented cuirboulli, say 4 or 5 AP, and it would STILL be worth the fame and glory attached to the gear.

Here in 21st Century Earth, we've had the notions of 'proving your worth' and 'glory' knocked out of us. Two World Wars and a neverending series of brushfire wars will do that. But in Glorantha, fame and glory are the bread and butter of every professional warrior. Defaming a man's reputation is a killing matter and many a boy has lost his life in pursuit of glory, fame, reputation, and notoriety. Owning the ONLY verified suit of Dragon Skin Armor would be a huge cachet to a warrior name and fame.

Why are those things problems? The PCs did indeed slay a dragon, did they not?