Would common rune spells learned from a major cult work with spells from a spirit cult ?

[Agentorange]

Imagine an Ernalda cultist learns Extension , later wandering around Prax they go to the Paps and  worship a spirit called Earthrunning Girl - a spirit cult, from her they learn the Rune Spell earthrunning  ( allows the caster to run at full speed without tiredness for the duration of the spell as long as ; they're barefoot, they don't wade /swim through water )

Now could they use the extension spell they learned from Ernalda to extend the earthrunning spell ? or would they have to learn extension from Earthrunner Girl ( assuming she taught it..) ?

Edited March 7, 2023 by Agentorange

[Bill the barbarian]

Asked the same question but also asked what if the spells came from two people. Official answer I got: whatever promotes MGF.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Bill the barbarian

[radmonger]

To be more precise, if you make a spirit cult up, you are also free to make up its cultic associations. The paps is an earth temple complex, so Earthrunning Girl being a granddaughter of Ernalda seems entirely plausible. i'd go with that unless you have some deep plot reason otherwise.

The spell seems pretty useless without extension; maybe it should have a base level of built-in duration anyway, like catseye?

 

[Agentorange]

15 minutes ago, radmonger said:

To be more precise, if you make a spirit cult up, you are also free to make up its cultic associations. The paps is an earth temple complex, so Earthrunning Girl being a granddaughter of Ernalda seems entirely plausible. i'd go with that unless you have some deep plot reason otherwise.

The spell seems pretty useless without extension; maybe it should have a base level of built-in duration anyway, like catseye?

 

Pretty much the whole reason I was asking 😃 I'm torn between setting a fixed amount of time. eg; sunrise to sunset or something similiar. or allowing Earthrunning Girl to have Extension. Like you I was thinking of Earthrunning Girl being a granddaughter of Ernalda . and that combined with the earth focus of the paps meant that an Ernaldan extension would also apply. even more so if I treat ERG as an associate cult of Ernalda.

[g33k]

As per the Barbarian, the key rule is "MGF."

I'd certainly allow the wide embrace of Ernalda to work with most Earth cults, and Lightbringer / Storm Tribe (Air/Earth marriage) affiliated.

I'd likely disallow it for Cults that Ernalda considers "Enemy" or "Hostile" -- in the core book, I think that's only Eurmal.

[Scotty]

No. While the spells outwardly appear the same, inwardly they are different spells needing to be cast with the runes and rune points of the god the spell is from. Unless of course the spell description say’s specifically otherwise. Note that some spirit cults may be subservient cults of other cults and so use the same rune pool. 

[Agentorange]

38 minutes ago, Scotty said:

No. While the spells outwardly appear the same, inwardly they are different spells needing to be cast with the runes and rune points of the god the spell is from. Unless of course the spell description say’s specifically otherwise. Note that some spirit cults may be subservient cults of other cults and so use the same rune pool. 

So the only ways Earthrunning Girl would have Extension would be

a) if she granted it herself
b) she was a sub cult of a larger cult which had it -  and could access it from that cult ?

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

No. While the spells outwardly appear the same, inwardly they are different spells needing to be cast with the runes and rune points of the god the spell is from. Unless of course the spell description say’s specifically otherwise. Note that some spirit cults may be subservient cults of other cults and so use the same rune pool. 

So does that mean the ruling I received of having having stackable spells coming from different people being combinable still stands if it meets the criteria of MGF? I assume that if so, this is because they are each supplying cult affiliated rune pools. 

cheers

[svensson]

Answering the OP,

I don't see why not. We have the example in RQ3's 'River of Cradles' book of the Zola Fel cult River Horse and Cleansed One subcults /spirit cults. I grant you that RQ3 is not RQG and many mechanics have changed significantly, but I really can't think of an RQ rules mechanic or a 'Stafford-esque' Glorantha lore reason why magic from a divine source cannot augment magic from a directly related spirit cult.

[Bill the barbarian]

Rune Pools

 

[radmonger]

People don't grant spells, cults do.

Within a rune cult, spells from associated deities goes in the same rune pool, and so can be extended and stacked. This is where the terminology of the rules is super-confusing, sometimes even to chaosium staffers. Cults and subcults and hero cults and subservient cults and probably another type of not-a-rune-cult that just got added.

Also, extension is common magic, so RAW doesn't have to be learnt, you just have to have the RP in the right pool. I personally use a house rule that that only works for ritual castings, and you still have to explicitly learn how to cast it instantly. For my players at least, this cut down on a lot of analysis paralysis that came form having a too long menu of casting combat options.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

No. While the spells outwardly appear the same, inwardly they are different spells needing to be cast with the runes and rune points of the god the spell is from. Unless of course the spell description say’s specifically otherwise. Note that some spirit cults may be subservient cults of other cults and so use the same rune pool. 

I respectfully disagree.  The Extension spell does say specifically otherwise: "any temporal Rune spell".  Any means any.  Nor does it say "with the same rune and rune points as the spell you are extending".

Arguably, you may have to make two rolls against different runes to succeed.  We haven't bothered with that level of detail.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I respectfully disagree.  The Extension spell does say specifically otherwise: "any temporal Rune spell".  Any means any.  Nor does it say "with the same rune and rune points as the spell you are extending".

Arguably, you may have to make two rolls against different runes to succeed.  We haven't bothered with that level of detail.

What's more Extension is a Magic [R] Rune spell. It aligns with ANY other Rune for purposes of compatibility.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Extension spell does say specifically otherwise: "any temporal Rune spell".  Any means any.  Nor does it say "with the same rune and rune points as the spell you are extending".

The issue is actually stacking. It has been stated before the Rune spells from different Rune Pools do not stack.

[radmonger]

41 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The issue is actually stacking. It has been stated before the Rune spells from different Rune Pools do not stack.

i have to admit i have always run it as extension is stacked with the spell cast. But the wording does say instead it is 'simultaneously cast', not 'stacked', and states that's a special exception to the general rule about not being able to cast two spells at once.

i think i'll probably continue to run it as stacked, if only to avoid the possibility of someone casting a 16 point shield with a 20 year duration....

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

52 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The issue is actually stacking. It has been stated before the Rune spells from different Rune Pools do not stack.

I agree that one cannot stack a Shield spell from Orlanth with a Shield spell from Storm Bull.  Nor stack an Extension from each to get, say, 1 day duration.

However, as @radmonger notes, the casting of Extension with the other rune spell is not "stacking".

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

The issue is actually stacking. It has been stated before the Rune spells from different Rune Pools do not stack.

Now interestingly enough, I believe they do and I have already stated why... I had sent a question to RQ Q&A about two Rune levels combining to make a spell stronger. This is the one that got the answer why not...just use MFG...

Do note large rituals such as the ritual required to move the Glowspot. This can not be accomplished by one magician no matter how powerful nor done in one day... it will need schools of magicians working in concert over a long period (20 years?) to cast the spell (for that is what it is after all) to create the Temple of the Reaching Moon that moves the Glowspot.

Seems the question is how the spells are fueled is the issue. Unless the cult rune pool was created to fuel the spell in question than it can not! I can not recall the details of the rule about subcults and associated cults combining rule pools but still if the rune pool is not created for a certain spell it can not cast that spell. 

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that one cannot stack a Shield spell from Orlanth with a Shield spell from Storm Bull. Nor stack an Extension from each to get, say, 1 day duration.

Because Storm Bull actually gets Shield from Orlanth as an associate, that makes it a case where you could conceivably use the other cult's rune points to extend it. However, the same wouldn't be the case with Orlanth and his other brother Humakt, who has his own Shield spell. As for stacking, I generally run it so you can stack Shield freely, after all, it stacks with spirit magic like Protection. After 2 or 3 points it usually has significantly diminishing returns

Edited March 8, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Scotty]

14 hours ago, Agentorange said:

So the only ways Earthrunning Girl would have Extension would be

a) if she granted it herself
b) she was a sub cult of a larger cult which had it -  and could access it from that cult ?

a) Yes

b) Yes

In your example, just make Earthruning Girl, a local spirit cult subsumed by Ernalda as a subservient cult, an associate cult or a Hero cult. They would all use the same Rune point pool.

There's many examples of this.

[Scotty]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

People don't grant spells, cults do.

Gods do.

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

Within a rune cult, spells from associated deities goes in the same rune pool, and so can be extended and stacked. This is where the terminology of the rules is super-confusing, sometimes even to chaosium staffers. Cults and subcults and hero cults and subservient cults and probably another type of not-a-rune-cult that just got added.

These terms have been around since RuneQuest 2. Gods can be subservient cults with virtually no structure separate from the main cult (like Nandan and Ernalda), subcults are separate (like Odayla in Orlanth). Hero cults are tiny local cults of a main cult that may provide a single spell (Like Hiia Swordsman for Humakti in the Grazelands). Some spirit cults can be separately or in any of the above forms (like the White Bull spirit cult is also an associate cult of Orlanth, Waha and Storm Bull)

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

Also, extension is common magic, so RAW doesn't have to be learnt, you just have to have the RP in the right pool. 

Remember, Rune spells are not learned, you are granted access to them and so acquire the right to cast them (RQG 313). Initiates are granted access to their cult's common Rune spells as part of their initiation

[radmonger]

32 minutes ago, Scotty said:

These terms have been around since RuneQuest 2.

My point exactly. The spells and cults in rq;g haven't all been around since then. And some of them were not written on that basis, and so don't really fit within it.

It's hard enough to code a website in fortran 77, impossible to get others to understand why you think that's a good idea.

 

39 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Gods can be subservient cults

As i said, it can be confusing even to Chaosium staffers. Jeff has stated in these forums that magic accessed from an odayla shrine in an orlanth temple does not stack with the same spell accessed via an Odayla temple. And then there is language in rq;g that suggests the situation may be different between Odayla and Yinkin.

This is what caused me to conclude that rune magic is best thought of as being accessed via cults, not gods. I then read Hepheromes statement of magic at the start of the Red Book which seems to confirm that. This massively simplifies applying the rules, and means metaphysics never comes up mid-combat.

 

 

 

 

[soltakss]

Quote

Would common rune spells learned from a major cult work with spells from a spirit cult ?

In my game, it would depend on the spell.

Sanctify and Divination only really work for the cult they were learned from, so couldn't really be used with a Spirit Cult, unless the Spirit Cult was also a Sub Cult of the main cult.

I have no problems with spells such as Extension being used with other Runespells.

Similarly, if an Adventurer worshipped two deities with All Common Spells, I would allow them to stack them using Rune Points from both cults, so someone who is a worshipper of Ernalda and Chalana Arroy could cast a big Extension using Rune Points from both cults. A worshipper of Orlanth and Storm Bull could cast a big Multispell using Rune Points from both Rune Pools.

But, I am well-known for being a particularly benevolent, kind and generous GM.

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/10/2023 at 8:35 PM, soltakss said:

In my game, it would depend on the spell.

Sanctify and Divination only really work for the cult they were learned from, so couldn't really be used with a Spirit Cult, unless the Spirit Cult was also a Sub Cult of the main cult.

I have no problems with spells such as Extension being used with other Runespells.

Similarly, if an Adventurer worshipped two deities with All Common Spells, I would allow them to stack them using Rune Points from both cults, so someone who is a worshipper of Ernalda and Chalana Arroy could cast a big Extension using Rune Points from both cults. A worshipper of Orlanth and Storm Bull could cast a big Multispell using Rune Points from both Rune Pools.

But, I am well-known for being a particularly benevolent, kind and generous GM.

Well, there you see, I'd go the exact opposite, because the power of a Rune Spell is from the deity itself, and each deity has its own unique powers (even though we all use the same terminology, and they all seem to do the same thing - eg, Extension).

So, a Shield from Orlanth may actually manifest as a swirling wind, while one from Humakt may appear as a couple of swords surrounding the caster, while one from Stormbull may be different again (eg, a hot breath).

Could an Orlanth Extension work on a Humakti Shield? I don't think so, because it's not the same power.

And, Rune Spells are a temporary embodiment or manifestation of the deity. To drop an Extension on a different deity's spell would mean you're literally trying to invoke an avatar of two deities at once. (granted, if it's an associated cult spell, this could be argued against it).

 

On 3/8/2023 at 6:01 PM, Scotty said:

Remember, Rune spells are not learned, you are granted access to them and so acquire the right to cast them (RQG 313). Initiates are granted access to their cult's common Rune spells as part of their initiation

I disagree with your terminology here. When you learn a Rune Spell, you are taught how to access the power of the god. It's not merely a "Oh, give us your POW and you just automatically know how to channel the power and force and magics of the god now". Some specific training is required. But, yes, even for common Rune spells... it's just that they're common, and so it's generally easier not to write them all out. Doesn't mean they don't need to be learned.

 

On 3/8/2023 at 5:59 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I respectfully disagree.  The Extension spell does say specifically otherwise: "any temporal Rune spell".  Any means any.  Nor does it say "with the same rune and rune points as the spell you are extending".

I think you're reading that far too literally and pedantically. I think you're trying to apply the 'any' tag to every spell,  rather than to any temporal spell provided by the god.

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, a Shield from Orlanth may actually manifest as a swirling wind, while one from Humakt may appear as a couple of swords surrounding the caster, while one from Stormbull may be different again (eg, a hot breath).

Could an Orlanth Extension work on a Humakti Shield? I don't think so, because it's not the same power.

The big exception to this rule the way I run it is associate spells, so because Storm Bull gets Shield from Orlanth as an associate, I would rule that it actually is the same power and can benefit from both rune pools. It’s limited by which spells are shared by which cults, but the tiny heroquest that is being enacted by the casting there is very clearly one god giving the other their aid.

Edited March 11, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Godlearner]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, there you see, I'd go the exact opposite, because the power of a Rune Spell is from the deity itself,

I would disagree. I believe the power comes from the Rune and is channeled by the deity. I would also postulate that same Rune is the source of sorcery associated with that Rune, but the sorcerer himself creates the channel/construct through which the power is must travel to take form. Same goes for spirit spells, but on a smaller scale.