Horses and Sartar

[Jeff]

Chariots of course are particularly useful in Glorantha because they can be used as mobile platforms for spell casting. One can cast active spells, augment with things like Meditate, and can use their melee or missile skills at full effect regardless of the charioteer's skill. This gives chariots a role they did not have in the real world - as mobile spell platforms for Rune levels. 

In fact chariots are so important to the Orlanthi in general that they have a charioteer cult! And not some toss-away subcult name, but one of the deities that have been a part of Glorantha since the 1970s.

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am treating those books flippantly because I was involved in creating them. I know what they are intended to be - notes, works in progress, etc.

Then you should treat Greg and your work with more respect.  These notes are actually quite detailed and provide plenty of useful info.  When the time comes to start producing Hero Quests for RQG the Stafford Library will absolutely invaluable.  Even a loose collection of notes are better than no notes.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Darius West

[Shiningbrow]

On 5/1/2023 at 8:31 PM, Jeff said:

Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. On retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted.

I'd just like to point out that this is circular reasoning... (It's not important and so I am ambivalent. My ambivalence comes because I don't think it's important)

If Greg wasn't ambivalent, and decided that it was important (canonical), then his interest/excitement/whatever (i.e., lack of ambivalence) would be just as well warranted.

[Darius West]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:41 AM, Jeff said:

Chariots of course are particularly useful in Glorantha because they can be used as mobile platforms for spell casting. One can cast active spells, augment with things like Meditate, and can use their melee or missile skills at full effect regardless of the charioteer's skill. This gives chariots a role they did not have in the real world - as mobile spell platforms for Rune levels. 

In fact chariots are so important to the Orlanthi in general that they have a charioteer cult! And not some toss-away subcult name, but one of the deities that have been a part of Glorantha since the 1970s.

Well I could point out some salient points, such as the lack of chariot illustrations in White Bear Red Moon military units, but I won't.  I happen to love the idea of making RQG more Bronze Age, and nothing says that more than chariots.  When I first read about Volsaxi chariots, I immediately wrote a scenario involving the retrieval of such an ancient chariot, and a quest to drive it to the White Bull rebels in Prax for safe keeping. 

I would point out though that RQ2 and RQ3 and HQ had no chariot rules.  They are purely from RQG, and I like them a lot.  Retrofitting them into the lore however has been an issue.  The way I get around this issue is that Argrath sees the utility of chariots among the Volsaxi forces and realizes their value for his Sartar Magical Union, and reintroduces what was a technology that largely died in ages prior, perhaps wiped out by the God Learners or the True Golden Horde.  Rather than pretend chariots have always been there, I chose instead to link them to the Hero Wars as a reintroduction.  This way we don't abandon the lore and history  that went before, but instead celebrate the chariot rules as something exciting and new on the battlefield.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would point out though that RQ2 and RQ3 and HQ had no chariot rules. 

RQ3 Monster Coliseum had chariot rules.

[SDLeary]

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

RQ3 Monster Coliseum had chariot rules.

Yes, it did. They were not in the core rules though.

I think Darius point though is that Glorantha of the time, and Sartar/Tarsh in particular, was not represented as having any sort of major use of chariot, either as a simple mode of transportation or as a component in mobile artillery.

SDLeary

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I think Darius point though is that Glorantha of the time, and Sartar/Tarsh in particular, was not represented as having any sort of major use of chariot, either as a simple mode of transportation or as a component in mobile artillery.

An early Greg document I have where he wrote about units in White Bear and Red Moon refers to chariots, including artillery chariots later given to Dara Happa. And of course, RQ3 Sun County refers to the Sun Domer's chariot regiment destroyed in the Dragonkill and their remaining ceremonial chariot.

[Martin]

Lets not forget that in the real world, the ability to field significant chariot forces in any conflict is a symbol of the power of the commader (king) because of the effort and resources needed to construct and maintain a chariot force...so thjey are more than a military asset they are a display of power...which is why even after some peoples dont field them in conflict they maintain a chariot force as a ceremonial  asset

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Glorantha of the time, and Sartar/Tarsh in particular, was not represented as having any sort of major use of chariot

Nothing to do with embarrassment or taboo concerning what actually pulls a thunder god’s chariot? Unclean! Unclean!

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

RQ3 Monster Coliseum had chariot rules.

That is for gladiatorial combat a la ancient Roman sporting use of chariots, not bronze age military chariot deployment.  I can't think of a single RQ scenario which featured a chariot or chariot warfare; not even as a novelty.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That is for gladiatorial combat a la ancient Roman sporting use of chariots, not bronze age military chariot deployment.  I can't think of a single RQ scenario which featured a chariot or chariot warfare; not even as a novelty.

Given that prior to RQG there were only two RQ books set in Dragon Pass (Snakepipe Hollow and Apple Lane), I can certainly understand why neither featured chariots, since both involve combat in enclosed or underground locations.

But RQG is explicit - chariots are commonly used for mobile platforms for spell-casting and missile attacks. Just check out pages 220-222. That's an official Chaosium publication, not some comment on some digest from the 1990s.

You are of course welcome to have your Glorantha be whatever you want it to be, but if your Glorantha refuses to incorporate anything from the last decade, you should probably state that.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Nothing to do with embarrassment or taboo concerning what actually pulls a thunder god’s chariot? Unclean! Unclean!

I'm more a fan of Zeus, Taranis, Perkunos, Hadad, etc. But that's just me. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'm more a fan of Zeus, Taranis, Perkunos, Hadad

Have you read Malkah's Notebook? I feel like you might like it.

[DrGoth]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:01 AM, M Helsdon said:

RQ3 Monster Coliseum had chariot rules.

Fantasy Europe. And the box explicitly says "Derived from Roman examples". So not so much Bronze Age.

RQG says they are present, so they are. But as a general point I wouldn't rely on a Non-Gloranthan RQ3 supplement for anything.

[M Helsdon]

12 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Fantasy Europe. And the box explicitly says "Derived from Roman examples". So not so much Bronze Age.

Chariot technology didn't change very much between the Bronze and Iron Age, and nor did the techniques of driving them. The only significant difference was the bands of iron that held the circle of the wheel together; earlier sinew or bronze was used for the tires. 

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Fantasy Europe. And the box explicitly says "Derived from Roman examples". So not so much Bronze Age.

RQG says they are present, so they are. But as a general point I wouldn't rely on a Non-Gloranthan RQ3 supplement for anything.

In this case, there's really no reason not to use these rules if you have them and have chariots or chariot riders in your game (ignore the fatigue rules). Examples are given for bronze age chariots (Sumerian, Egyptian, Hittite, Persian) and it's easy enough to use the chariots from W&E. The opening paragraph says:

Quote

Chariots and chariot racing played a significant part in ancient times. Chariots were common in Mesopotamia as early as 3000Be. An early literary reference to chariots occurs in the Iliad, where a cross-country race between five chieftains driving two horse chariots was the first event in the funeral games honoring Patroclus. One racer is warned by his father that success depends as much on the skill and craftiness of the driver as on the speed of the horses. You may well discover the same fact.

I've had hours of fun with this rules set (although now we use a chariot racing rules set called Orcus maximus)

Edited May 6, 2023 by David Scott

[Darius West]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:03 PM, Jeff said:

Given that prior to RQG there were only two RQ books set in Dragon Pass (Snakepipe Hollow and Apple Lane), I can certainly understand why neither featured chariots, since both involve combat in enclosed or underground locations.

For the past 40 years there has been a remarkable dearth of chariots in RQ.  While I like the idea of chariots immensely, there is no mention of them in any of the histories or lore either, quite apart from what was written in RQ2 and RQ3.  No mention of chariots in Wyrms footnotes or the various fanzines as part of how Orlanthi fight.  No mention of chariots at the Battle of Grizzly Peak or during the Invasion of Sartar in 1602 or during Starbrow's Rebellion.  There has been ample opportunity too.  As such, as I don't like retconning, I have found a good work around I think.

[Darius West]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:57 PM, M Helsdon said:

Chariot technology didn't change very much between the Bronze and Iron Age, and nor did the techniques of driving them. The only significant difference was the bands of iron that held the circle of the wheel together; earlier sinew or bronze was used for the tires. 

I have to disagree.  Chariot design changes remarkably over time.  The materials change.  The choice of weight changes.  The number of horses change.  Sometimes they are missile platforms, and sometimes they are shock weapons.  Eventually suspension is developed.  Systems of reins change.  The wheels are separated from the axle (not the case in Ur chariots).  The yokes change.  The armoring of the sides varies a lot from culture to culture and over time.  Then there are the scythed wheels etc.  The variance between a chariot from Ur changes dramatically when compared to an Egyptian or Celtic chariot.  There is clearly a lot of design change over time.  While the technology of the chariot itself remains identifiable, virtually every element of the design is refined over time.  As to no chages in driving them, the Romans are on record as lashing the reins around their bodies, which most earlier charioteers didn't do afaik.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

There is clearly a lot of design change over time.  While the technology of the chariot itself remains identifiable, virtually every element of the design is refined over time. 

The basic components remained constant, even early chariots had suspension. Chariots rarely worked as shock weapons and scythed wheels were not very practical.

The Ur 'chariot' was more a battle cart or wagon (the four wheels make it a very different vehicle).

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

As to no chages in driving them, the Romans are on record as lashing the reins around their bodies, which most earlier charioteers didn't do afaik.

For very good reasons.... It's not a very wise thing to do. It was claimed to help them use their body weight to control their horses in a race; whilst there's many things that are inaccurate in Ben Hur, the chariot race shows what happens when things go wrong. The actors and stunt men did not lash their reins around their bodies. Just watch what happens when Messala has his reins lashed around his arms, and then imagine how much worse having them around his waist would be.

Lots about chariots in: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass?

Illustrations by Angus McBride of a Sumerian battle cart, Assyrian heavy chariot, Egyptian chariot, British chariot,  Seleucid scythed chariot....

Edited May 8, 2023 by M Helsdon

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, Darius West said:

there is no mention of them in any of the histories or lore either, quite apart from what was written in RQ2 and RQ3

There are chariots in King of Sartar, Sun County, Ronance in Nomad Gods, GM Screen pack, the Guide, etc.

Edited May 9, 2023 by David Scott

[mfbrandi]

Of course, we only want rules for chariots drawn by dragonflies or seahorses.

[Martin]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Of course, we only want rules for chariots drawn by dragonflies or seahorses.

Could  these illustrated be Water enities that Mastokos defeated in Orlanth's many battles against the seas?

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

Could these illustrated be Water entities that Mastakos defeated in Orlanth's many battles against the seas?

Quite likely, but I am not privy to the art direction given Ms. Dirim. The dragonflies or seahorses thing is from the Avalon Hill Gods of Glorantha Prosopædia. The AH/RQ3 Mastakos cult write-up has a Drive [vehicle] skill, which is — I guess — one of the earliest manifestations of RQ chariot “rules” (about five sentences).

Mastakos is a “planet” with a watery origin story.

Spoiler

Mastakos is Orlanth’s Charioteer and … No one claims him merely as a guise of Orlanth, but no one worships him as a separate deity … He is the planet that crosses the sky more swiftly than any other, then steps across the dome in an instant to start his journey again … Mastakos was born in the Undersea, kept hidden by Magasta at the bottom of Daliath’s Well of Wisdom. — Thunder Rebels, p. 224

Orlanth gets him out of the well by drinking the Well of Daliath dry. Presumably, the big O then pisses or vomits all the wisdom back into the Well. Clearly, he didn’t keep much. I suppose one could read the mini-myth as Orlanth’s doing a LibraryQuest to gain knowledge of teleportation — Mastakos is neither a god nor a mask of Orlanth, “he” is just something Orlanth knows how to do, the one technique kept from the vast riches of the Well. But this is not Call of Cthulhu, and a tale of heroic drinking was what played with the Hillfolk.

By the time of Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes (p. 126), O’s chariot is drawn by two horses, called Crisis and Rage. (Not Parricide and Remorse. Not even Donner und Blitzen.) Sounds more Orlanth, it is true, but we’d all prefer dragonflies, right? We also learn that Heortlings are not big on chariots, but they do use them for: [a] ceremonial shit; [b] carrying storm wielding magicians into battle.

A lot of the above may be no longer in force — I am experimenting with avoiding the ‘r’ word, as I fear it is becoming a curse rather than a description — and that is fine … but you know, dragonflies, baby, DRAGONFLIES!

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, to add to the above, Mongoose RQ first edition had chariots, and references them specifically in the section on chases. Also, Mercenaries and Soldiers can select Driving (+10%) as a professional skill.

Most of the people on this forum despise Mongoose for various reasons.  As to mercenary soldiers and drive skill (a) 10% won't achieve much (b) are you sure the primary use of the skill isn't for driving supply wagons?

On 5/9/2023 at 4:00 AM, M Helsdon said:

The basic components remained constant, even early chariots had suspension. Chariots rarely worked as shock weapons and scythed wheels were not very practical.

The Ur 'chariot' was more a battle cart or wagon (the four wheels make it a very different vehicle).

For very good reasons.... It's not a very wise thing to do. It was claimed to help them use their body weight to control their horses in a race; whilst there's many things that are inaccurate in Ben Hur, the chariot race shows what happens when things go wrong. The actors and stunt men did not lash their reins around their bodies. Just watch what happens when Messala has his reins lashed around his arms, and then imagine how much worse having them around his waist would be.

Even basic components change dramatically from culture to culture in shape, in material, in attachments.  If you compare Scythian, Chinese, Greek, Celtic, Egyptian, Hittite, Assyrian, Roman, Seleucid etc. chariots change over time.  A military shock chariot is very different from a racing chariot or a hunting chariot or a religious chariot or a war chariot designed for missile combat. 

As to the inaccuracies vis Ben Hur,  I think I read about the body lacing of the reins in in Vera Oliviva's "Chariot Racing in the Ancient World" and a couple of other places.  Does Gibbons mention it?  Racers all carried daggers for hacking themselves loose from the reins, and it was made deliberately dangerous to make the sport more exciting, as well as allegedly offering the drivers more control over the larger 4 horse teams due to being able to exert greater strength.  It was exclusively a Roman thing and mainly late empire afaik.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Even basic components change dramatically from culture to culture in shape, in material, in attachments.  If you compare Scythian, Chinese, Greek, Celtic, Egyptian, Hittite, Assyrian, Roman, Seleucid etc. chariots change over time.  A military shock chariot is very different from a racing chariot or a hunting chariot or a religious chariot or a war chariot designed for missile combat. 

Yes, Darius, I know, but it still doesn't change the fact that the basic design and components didn't change very much in form or usage. They are basically a two-wheeled car pulled by two or more horses.

There were very few 'military shock chariot(s)' as chariots were ineffective against disciplined formations. Even the Seleucid scythed chariots weren't militarily very useful. There are only two recorded instances when similar 'shock chariots' had any impact: once when the Persians were pursuing the Ten Thousand in 399 BC and at Amnias in 89 BC.

Military chariots were either battlefield taxis or missile platforms, useful in scattering an already disordered enemy (and that's what happened when Pharnabazus caught up with the Ten Thousand - and his force was almost entirely cavalry).

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to the inaccuracies vis Ben Hur,  I think I read about the body lacing of the reins in in Vera Oliviva's "Chariot Racing in the Ancient World" and a couple of other places.  Does Gibbons mention it?  Racers all carried daggers for hacking themselves loose from the reins, and it was made deliberately dangerous to make the sport more exciting, as well as allegedly offering the drivers more control over the larger 4 horse teams due to being able to exert greater strength.  It was exclusively a Roman thing and mainly late empire afaik.

And not used in any military context for obvious reasons. A racing chariot with its single occupant was not a military chariot or used over battlefield terrain.

Edited May 10, 2023 by M Helsdon