Horses and Sartar

[Jeff]

Prior to the Lunar Occupation, the Sartarites army was primarily foot militia led by mounted noblemen called thanes. The army was augmented by warrior societies, mercenaries, and various allied troops (such as Grazelanders, Pol-Joni, Praxians, and later Sun Dome Templars).

The horse is seen as a Solar animal, descended from Yelm. Hyalor Horsebreaker, another descendent of Yelm, is said to have tamed the horse to serve men. The Orlanthi adopted horse-riding in the First Age, but their small horses were often better used for pulling chariots or are ridden by full-time warriors and petty nobles. Other animals are often used as mounts, particularly bison and sable antelope (high llamas and impala are considered more difficult to learn to ride).

The best horsemanship in Sartar is associated with the Yelmalio cult, the Runegate clans, and the Pol-Joni. Of these group, the Pol-Joni are considered the best horsemen, and ride horses of Grazelander origin. The Yelmalio cult reveres horses.

The Orlanth cult is pragmatic towards horses, as it is with so many things. 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Jeff

[Nick Brooke]

The Royal House of Sartar has a notable predilection for screwing horses. (Including horse queens, centaurs, and presumably common-or-garden horses as well.)

Just putting that out there.

[DrGoth]

Would Tarshite Orlanthi be more likely to ride horses and less likely to ride bison/sable?  And might that then also be true of the Far Place Orlanthi compared to the rest of Sartar?

[Manunancy]

In my opinion horses are far more likely - bisons and sables are from prax - which has a very different climate and terrain - savana opposed to Startar's wooded hills.

 

[Joerg]

Both bison and sables would roam the wild pastures of Sartar, except that a combination of hunting and transhumant herding makes the region less desirable for the herds. Small groups will get by just fine, but larger herds like in Prax are unlikely to form. (At least not until Argrath brings bison folk into Dinacoli lands.)

[Darius West]

On 4/26/2023 at 2:58 AM, Jeff said:

The best horsemanship in Sartar is associated with the Yelmalio cult, the Runegate clans, and the Pol-Joni.

What about the cult of Finovan?  He rides upon Rolling Thunder, a magnificent stolen horse.  As the pre-eminent rustling and raiding deity, why doesn't he get a mention?   Rustling cattle is very hard on foot.  Elmal may raise the horses, but Finovan steals them and rides them.  If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.

except if the "solar" deity refuses to join a raid. It is robery, isn't it ?

[svensson]

On 4/27/2023 at 11:12 AM, Darius West said:

What about the cult of Finovan?  He rides upon Rolling Thunder, a magnificent stolen horse.  As the pre-eminent rustling and raiding deity, why doesn't he get a mention?   Rustling cattle is very hard on foot.  Elmal may raise the horses, but Finovan steals them and rides them.  If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.

That is the best of Terrestrial horse culture myth...
-- Cu Chulainn loved two horses he stole to pull his chariot.

-- The Turkish, Bedouin, and Mongols each had proverbs and aphorisms that announced that the best horse of a warrior is one stolen from his enemies.

-- The Plains Indians cultures, especially the Sioux and Comanche, lauded the qualities of stolen horses and one couldn't be considered a serious warrior among many tribes without stealing a horse from another tribe.

It's for reasons like this that I included the Movement/Change Rune in my highly unoffical, very IMGU writeup of Elmal's cult.

Edited October 14, 2023 by svensson

[Jeff]

18 hours ago, Darius West said:

What about the cult of Finovan?  He rides upon Rolling Thunder, a magnificent stolen horse.  As the pre-eminent rustling and raiding deity, why doesn't he get a mention?   Rustling cattle is very hard on foot.  Elmal may raise the horses, but Finovan steals them and rides them.  If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.

Are you absolutely determined to work all those old HW subcults into canonical Glorantha? Let me make it easy for you - the old HW books are not canon. In the Hero Wars period here's how they work:

Finovan was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Finovan Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. 

Destor was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Destor Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. 

In Sartar, these figures do not receive cult worship. Instead the focus is on Orlanth Adventurous. Orlanth Adventurous can fly, walk invisible in shadows, and surround himself with mists - that makes it easy for him to steal. And young Orlanth initiates learn this stuff during their Ordeal Years:

"New adults go through a period of cult training or apprenticeship, often called the “Ordeal Years”. The newly initiated young men (which include those women chosen by Vinga) are brought to Orlanth Adventurous and given weapons, a cloak, and a broad hat. This is sometimes done by the clan, more often by the tribe; in some cities, the young men live in the temple or guild house; in other traditional clans, they live in the wilderness. For the next two years, they learn to fight alone and as part of the militia. They raid and hunt, learn to run long distances, how to climb cliffs, and other physical training. Most importantly, they learn the songs and dances of the Orlanthi gods and heroes, how to speak with spirits, and of sex, the bonds of friendship, and the duties of men. "

[Jeff]

19 hours ago, Manunancy said:

In my opinion horses are far more likely - bisons and sables are from prax - which has a very different climate and terrain - savana opposed to Startar's wooded hills.

 

Bison and Sable Antelope can live perfectly well in Dragon Pass. And in Peloria.

[Erol of Backford]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:58 PM, Jeff said:

Prior to the Lunar Occupation, the Sartarites army was primarily foot militia led by mounted noblemen called thanes.

But obviously lots of people ride horses but maybe dismount to do battle? There was another town near Sun Dome that was into horse archery and mounted activities but I can't recall it at a glance. Apple Lane had some know horse trainers as well. So maybe it's closer to Medieval squires and footman around a mounted thane, would the thane tend to dismount or would the thanes gather as cavalry unit?

What percentage of Sartarites would be able to afford a horse for riding or combat, if it were trained as a warhorse?

Thanks for the insite Mr. Richard. 

  

[Darius West]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:47 PM, Jeff said:

Are you absolutely determined to work all those old HW subcults into canonical Glorantha?

They are all in The Stafford Library, and if that isn't canon then it damn well should be.  And yes, I think they should all be included as they are part of the lore.  I take exception to the notion that these are old "HW" subcults, as I never played HW because it was a terrible system.  My thoughts on the matter are quite public.

On 4/28/2023 at 10:47 PM, Jeff said:

Finovan was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Finovan Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance. 

That has to be incorrect, as the Volsaxi are a super rare Orlanthi chariot people, while Finovan is a rider/raider god who rides a horse rather than driving a chariot as far as the literature tells us. 

More importantly I can see broad appeal in a deity who is able to enhance a clan's ability to steal cattle, which is a major source of wealth.  The notion that Finovan is so narrowly worshipped and in the wrong place (Chariot heavy Volsaxiland) doesn't seem very credible to me.  Finovan is too broadly valuable to every Orlanthi clan to be as limited in adoption as you suggest.

More importantly, many if not all Tribal and Clan rings will include a Thunder Brother seat.   It is part of the lore, and every clan or tribe of any size will incorporate the cult of at least one Thunder Brother, and while most may choose Elmal or Vinga, not all will or should. 

Diversity and respect for the deeper Lore will in no way diminish Glorantha, but will instead make it stronger.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

They are all in The Stafford Library, and if that isn't canon then it damn well should be.  And yes, I think they should all be included as they are part of the lore.  I take exception to the notion that these are old "HW" subcults, as I never played HW because it was a terrible system.  My thoughts on the matter are quite public.

It is a different way of looking at the cults.

Personally. I prefer that they are both Subcults of Orlanth and, occasionally, are worshipped as cults of their own. When they are worshipped as cults in their own right, I give them one or two extra spells, but they are minor cults so nothing like the spells in the HW books.

Jeff has a different view and he will write Glorantha the way that he sees it, and that is absolutely fine with me. If I need to do something differently then I will do, for my own games.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

More importantly I can see broad appeal in a deity who is able to enhance a clan's ability to steal cattle, which is a major source of wealth.  The notion that Finovan is so narrowly worshipped and in the wrong place (Chariot heavy Volsaxiland) doesn't seem very credible to me.  Finovan is too broadly valuable to every Orlanthi clan to be as limited in adoption as you suggest.

The trouble is that some of those deities are just Orlanth using a different name. I can't remember if Finovan comes under that category but he may well do. That just makes him Orlanth the Raider, part of Orlanth Adventurous.

[DrGoth]

On 4/28/2023 at 11:03 PM, Jeff said:

Bison and Sable Antelope can live perfectly well in Dragon Pass. And in Peloria.

I'm assuming (but happy to be corrected) that Bison get less common the further you move from Prax (more or less). And Sables too, until you get nearer to the Hungry Plateau.

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

I'm assuming (but happy to be corrected) that Bison get less common the further you move from Prax (more or less). And Sables too, until you get nearer to the Hungry Plateau.

There are bison and sable throughout Balazar and into the Elder Wilds. There have been periods when bison riders and bison were present in southern Peloria, particularly Saird and Vanch, and small herds likely still exist there. (Bear in mind that bison are not restricted to prairie - they existed throughout the woodlands of North America.)

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

as the Volsaxi are a super rare Orlanthi chariot people

The Volsaxi are simply a large tribe of northern Heortland. They are not a "super rare Orlanthi chariot people".

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

They are all in The Stafford Library, and if that isn't canon then it damn well should be.  And yes, I think they should all be included as they are part of the lore.  I take exception to the notion that these are old "HW" subcults, as I never played HW because it was a terrible system.  My thoughts on the matter are quite public.

The Heortling Mythology book was never intended to be canon. It just started from a desire that Greg had to have all the stories that appeared in various books in one place. He then added a bunch of additional stories, I added some more. It was a rough draft and notebook for what would eventually become Belintar's book (which ultimately formed the basis of the Cults series). I proposed that we publish the book as a way of getting some revenue; Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. On retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

That has to be incorrect, as the Volsaxi are a super rare Orlanthi chariot people, while Finovan is a rider/raider god who rides a horse rather than driving a chariot as far as the literature tells us. 

Huh? Where the heck does this even come from? The Volsaxi have been well described in the Guide and other publications.

Look you are welcome to your own Glorantha. But as far as published Glorantha (which is now entirely with RuneQuest) goes, the Orlanth cult is divided into three major aspects:

Adventurous - that's the heroic aspect of Orlanth that runs around raiding, fighting, and having all sorts of adventures.

Thunderous -that's the elemental aspect of Orlanth that brings storms, wind, and fertilising rain.

Rex - that's the tribal aspect of Orlanth that rules the other gods.

There's also a Vinga overlap, and bunch of subcults like Four Magic Weapons, Sartar, Voriof, Thunderbird, and the Thunder Brothers. 

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

More importantly, many if not all Tribal and Clan rings will include a Thunder Brother seat.   It is part of the lore, and every clan or tribe of any size will incorporate the cult of at least one Thunder Brother, and while most may choose Elmal or Vinga, not all will or should. 

i'd agree with this; the point is that does not make them a rune cult, any more than it makes Elmal a rune cult.

A rune cult is an organisation that follows the rq;g rules in the section of that name. It has dedicated temples and priests. it has it's own distinct initiation path, which teaches a range of magical secrets wide enough to satisfy someone who follows the cult exclusively. And it is either written up in the rq;g cults books, or is an unfortunate omission.

The existence of a rune cult generally requires the existence of a deity; the reverse is not true. It is not known how many more entities there are capable of supporting cult worship than cults, but it is likely several orders of magnitude. The RQ2 cult temple has a subsection 'reason for continued existence'. In no case is this filled out with 'it's a god, dummy'. Or indeed 'grants cool powers PCs will like'.

Almost all clans will have some unique Rune Spell that comes from some mythic figure. For Orlanthi clans, this is typically either a clan ancestor, a Thunder Brother, or one of Ernalda's innumerable relatives.  If two clans share such a patron, chances are they are too far away to have even heard of each other. The people who learn that spell are inmates of Orlanth and/or Ernalda, who add it to the corresponding Rune Pool. When they worship Orlanth or Ernalda, and visit Orlanth's stead on the Other Side, they find that deity among Orlanth's thanes, Ernalda's handmaids, or perhaps just visiting.

They rarely share such clan secrets with outsiders, even those initiated to the same deities. So the however many hundred clans of dragon pass do not add a corresponding number of rune spells to the Orlanth cult writeup. 

Sometimes such a deity is commonly known by another name, but still worshipped as a Thunder brother (Odayla, Yinkin,  Yelmalio). In this case, the description of the other people who worship that deity in rune cult style will (or at least should) be written up as a rune cult. Sometimes the two are mythically linked together, with the full cult acknowledging that their deity did spend some part of the god time guarding Orlanth's halls, braiding Ernalda's hair, or whatever. in such cases, knowing the 'braid hair really well' spell may be taken as proof of initiation. They do not need to forge their own path to meet the deity on the Other Side; they simply accompany her when she leaves Ernalda's side to do her own thing[1].

In other cases this is mythically true, and so would work, but none has ever done it. Maybe the Dark Stranger your clan knows of is Argan Argar; maybe he isn't.

[1] it's not strictly necessary, but to be PC-friendly i would add a house rule that when transferring initiation between associated cults, with the mutual consent of both cults, only incompatible spells become one-use, rather than all. 

 

 

[Martin]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Heortling Mythology book was never intended to be canon. It just started from a desire that Greg had to have all the stories that appeared in various books in one place. He then added a bunch of additional stories, I added some more. It was a rough draft and notebook for what would eventually become Belintar's book (which ultimately formed the basis of the Cults series). I proposed that we publish the book as a way of getting some revenue; Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. On retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted.

As the third named author, compiler, and editor of the Heortling Mythology Book; I can 100% confirm this to be an accurate portryal of that work.

[Erol of Backford]

18 hours ago, Darius West said:

More importantly I can see broad appeal in a deity who is able to enhance a clan's ability to steal cattle, which is a major source of wealth. 

I have read so many post initiation scenarios either raiding or guarding against raids that it seems almost as widely used as Apple Lane? Orlanthi/barbarians on horses seems natural.

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

Adventurous - that's the heroic aspect of Orlanth that runs around raiding, fighting, and having all sorts of adventures.

If they have the coin, they ride, if they cannot fly?!

11 hours ago, radmonger said:

They rarely share such clan secrets with outsiders, even those initiated to the same deities. So the however many hundred clans of dragon pass do not add a corresponding number of rune spells to the Orlanth cult writeup. 

Sounds a bit like chasing Erumali spells shrine to shrine across Genertela? Why wouldn't worshipers of the same deity be able to acquire spells available to follw worshipers at another location?

 

10 hours ago, Martin said:

Heortling Mythology

Love everything in there, keep going back to it, 100's of plot hooks. 1000's of rabbit holes.

[DrGoth]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There are bison and sable throughout Balazar and into the Elder Wilds. There have been periods when bison riders and bison were present in southern Peloria, particularly Saird and Vanch, and small herds likely still exist there. (Bear in mind that bison are not restricted to prairie - they existed throughout the woodlands of North America.)

Sure - I was just talking about relativities.  Compared to horses, I think bison are more common nearer to Prax and less common further away from it.

[radmonger]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why wouldn't worshipers of the same deity be able to acquire spells available to follw worshipers at another location?

Partly because clans are clannish.  Being friendly to strangers means being open to trade and negotiation, not automatically sharing things the way you naturally would with kin. And, unlike cults, clans are normally exclusive; you can typically only be a full member of one at a time.

However, over the decades there would presumably  be enough cases of people quietly  leaving the clan[1] that that wouldn't be enough in the long term.

In King of Dragon Pass, knowledge of a magical secret doesn't give you routine access to its benefits; you need to not only build a shrine, but pay an annual toll, which you may or may not be able to afford sustainably[2]. In RQ:G, the temple size rules are presumably modelling the same concept, in a less player-facing way[3].

Either way, there is some underlying constraint of resources, worshippers and/or calendar days[4] that means providing access to a new spell or subcult implies, all things equal, dropping an existing one[4].

So city-based temples generally provide access to one or more mostly-standardized menus of spells that have proven themselves to be useful for city-dwelling Orlanthi. These are the by-the-book subcults, including the 4 weapons. This means city-based Orlanth temples not only mutually recognize each other's initiates, but recognize initiations performed by Orlanthi clans.

A subtle consequence of this is that, for consistencies sake, the signature spells of a clan or tribe should not be clearly better than those generally available. Maybe they are flat out not as powerful, or geographically restricted. Or maybe they require a less-common rune affinity, access to an uncommon resource, or are best used in combination with a particular skill.

The 4 spells that _Six Seasons in Sartar_ assign to the Haraborn all fit that pattern. 4 signature spells does seem high to me, but maybe that befits the the Haraborn's status as hard-core traditionalists, one step removed from Hsunchen, who practice a particularly dangerous form of ordeal-based adulthood initiation...

[1] formal exile, would, I think, would be backed by the rune spell that strips initiation status. But few clans would be rigorous about casting that on every single person who leaves, even if thought dead.

[2] add disclaimer about KoDP being set several hundred years before the RQ:G era, before the establishment of tribes, let alone cities. And also being a computer game.

[3] as they are not typically the people making those decisions.

[4] the 14 days of sacred time is a plausible bottleneck- given one congregation, you can only hold 1 full-congregation ceremony per day.

[5] One exception to this is that a newly-established full rune cult is likely to be actively on the look out for new myths and secrets, as they don't yet have a 'full spellbook' . This likely applies to the Dragon Pass cults of Odayla, Yinkin and, perhaps, Yelmalio. This often corresponds to adopting a new lifestyle in which the available spells will be materially useful.

[Darius West]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:31 PM, Jeff said:

The Heortling Mythology book was never intended to be canon. It just started from a desire that Greg had to have all the stories that appeared in various books in one place. He then added a bunch of additional stories, I added some more. It was a rough draft and notebook for what would eventually become Belintar's book (which ultimately formed the basis of the Cults series). I proposed that we publish the book as a way of getting some revenue; Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. n retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted.

Given that it is the best source material we have on a lot of lore, I think we should stop treating the Stafford Library so flippantly.  It isn't as if Greg is around to do it better anymore, so we need to treat it as the obviously invaluable resource that these books so clearly are.  That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them.

On 5/1/2023 at 10:31 PM, Jeff said:

Huh? Where the heck does this even come from? The Volsaxi have been well described in the Guide and other publications. 

It is lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users.  I think that came out in a TORM article by Greg in the 1990s, or it was in one of the many Jonstown Compendium footnotes somewhere from back in the day.  The Volsaxi tribe are one of the last peoples in Genertela to use chariots.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Darius West

[M Helsdon]

3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them.

https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/MoonDesign

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Given that it is the best source material we have on a lot of lore, I think we should stop treating the Stafford Library so flippantly.  It isn't as if Greg is around to do it better anymore, so we need to treat it as the obviously invaluable resource that these books so clearly are.  That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them.

It is lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users.  I think that came out in a TORM article by Greg in the 1990s, or it was in one of the many Jonstown Compendium footnotes somewhere from back in the day.  The Volsaxi tribe are one of the last peoples in Genertela to use chariots.

I am treating those books flippantly because I was involved in creating them. I know what they are intended to be - notes, works in progress, etc. They are materials gathered together so we could have them handy as we worked on other materials. Heortling Mythology is not and was never intended to be canon. In fact, the process of putting together Heortling Mythology convinced Greg and I that a lot of the stuff written for Hero Wars was just plain wrong and needed to be discarded. What we put together in the Guide, RQG, and the Cults books are the product of over a decade of careful re-evaluation, deep dives, root revivals, and experiencing Glorantha anew. It is the basis of canon, not our research notes.

And no it is not lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users. And in fact, chariots are still used in Sartar to this day. It might be useful to read RQG and other actual published materials rather than just rely on half-remembered "lore".