Heroquesting companions

[GoldShogun]

What effect does the gods of a heroquesters companions have on the heroquest itself?

I imagine when people go on a heroquest the band is usually made up of people who worship gods that are associated, friendly or neutral towards each other but what happens if a heroquesters companion worships a god that is hostile or even an enemy to their own. What happens then? Does the heroquest change in anyway such as having a more unexpected outcome.
Does the compainon have to identify themselves as another god which has better relations or are they just straight up denied participating in the heroquest or even potentially becoming an obstacle that the heroquester must overcome. A good example is what if a Orlanth cultist brings a Lunar cultist on the lightbringers quest.

Would be great to hear people's opinions and if there are any examples where this has happened before.

[Squaredeal Sten]

As I understand it it is very desirable to have a good fit with the characters in the myth.  Among other reasons is that means knowledge of appropriate cult lore, so the questers have a good chance to do the right thing  when they encounter the unexpected.  Also so they have the right cult magic when reenacting the situation that gave the cult that magic.

You can have people who are not a perfect fit vs. the legend.  But the worse fit, the higher the chance of screwing it up.

Now the players may not have the grasp of cult lore that their characters do, just as a player with a stutter can play someone with Orate 90%.  So you should allow or prompt appropriate Cult Lore rolls.  But the Yelmalian playing the role of  Orlanth on an Orlanth legend won't have that lore, so they will have no basis from which  to make the right moves.

This answer is not official. I have almost no insight into the expected heroquesting rules.  In one approach the players should write or at least outline the quest so they'll should '- should- have a crib sheet.  What could go wrong?

 

 

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

The straight-up answer (from my perspective) is that the hostile worshipper wouldn't be a good fit for the herquestion and there would be an increased change of the heroquest failing.  Aligning the cults in the myth with the cults of the heroquesters is important because it adds an increased level of mythic resonance.  A Vinga worshipper representing Orlanth?  Great fit.  A Seven Mothers worshipper representing Orlanth.  Not a great fit.

Jeff often talks about the importance of community support in a heroquest, so in practical terms, I can't imagine a community voluntarily letting a hostile workshipper join their quest. 

Thinking about it now - unless it was in the role of an enemy.  The Orlanthi and Lunars got together to perform a heroquest.  The Orlanthi will play Orlanth and the Lunar will play Orlanth's enemy.   Possible, but I can't imagine circumstances where it would happen.

There is an aspect of heroquesting where you draw an enemy into the role of an enemy in your heroquest, to put them at a disadvantage.  It doesn't sound like that's what you are talking about, though.  

[mfbrandi]

13 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

A good example is what if a Orlanth cultist brings a Lunar cultist on the lightbringers quest.

One way of looking at it would be that the Lightbringers and the 7 Mothers have a lot in common in terms of heroquesting: bring back a shattered celestial god. And one might even argue that Sedenya — the changer — sits somewhere between Sky and Storm (or that there is uncertainty as to where She sits). So subbing an Irrippi Ontor PC for a Lhankor Mhy PC, for example — why not? (META: take care if the GM likes to drive wedges between party members.)

And if one is bothering to rôleplay the quest, presumably it will go off piste to some degree, so creative casting and out-of-the-box thinking may be just what you need — and more extreme than one sage for another: “Normally, one would take an x cultist for this rôle, but if we are to manage to get off the well-worn path and bring back y, we may require the talents of a z worshipper; who can we trust?”

(The heist aspect of heroquesting suggests Blades in the Dark. Allow flashback improv to allow the characters to get out of situations the players are unlikely to foresee (without a lot of boring planning)? Else, if the players have a painstakingly detailed plan/crib sheet and pull off the “heist”, it could be a bit anticlimactic.)

Bend the myth, twist the myth, … break the myth! I mean:

13 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What could go wrong?

[DrGoth]

14 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

A good example is what if a Orlanth cultist brings a Lunar cultist on the lightbringers quest.

I agree with what others have said. I also don't think that's a good example, depending on what role the Lunar took.  If they followed the healing aspect of the seven mothers, Chalana Arroy might not be too much of a stretch.  Jakaleel for Ginna Jar? Etyries for Issaries? Of course, they'd need to know the myth to be able act appropriately.  But if a Lunar tried to be Orlanth, that's ... harder.

But still not impossible.  What the God Learners did was much the same.  It comes back to knowledge (which the God Learners had) and respect (which they didn't). But they got away with just knowledge for along time.

So you need to know the myth and if the fit isn't good it's very, very risky.

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

What effect does the gods of a heroquesters companions have on the heroquest itself?

It really does depend.

Ideally, the deities should match the Companions, wherever possible.

However, if they differ then nothing really matters unless the Companions use magic that the original deities don't have. Quite often that doesn't matter but sometimes it does.

19 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

I imagine when people go on a heroquest the band is usually made up of people who worship gods that are associated, friendly or neutral towards each other but what happens if a heroquesters companion worships a god that is hostile or even an enemy to their own. What happens then? Does the heroquest change in anyway such as having a more unexpected outcome.

There are broadly two ways this could happen: The worshipper of the enemy deity can be doing this openly or in secret. If they worship openly then the HeroQuestors probably know about it and can cope with it, an example is of a worshipper of Zorak Zoran who plays a Storm Bull role, that is acceptable as Zorak Zoran and Storm Bull are both Berserking deities. The other way is if the worshipper keeps it secret and deliberately sabotages the HeroQuest, so a Zorak Zorani might be an initiate of Storm Bull as well, might go on a HeroQuest playing Storm Bull and, at a certain point, might attack the lead HeroQuestor. That would be bad and would affect the outcome of the HeroQuest.

19 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Does the compainon have to identify themselves as another god which has better relations or are they just straight up denied participating in the heroquest or even potentially becoming an obstacle that the heroquester must overcome. A good example is what if a Orlanth cultist brings a Lunar cultist on the lightbringers quest.

The HeroQuestor does not have to identify who they are. In the case of a Lunar going on a Lightbringer Quest, they could be playing Lhankor Mhy or Issaries, for example, using their Irrippi Ontor or Etyries knowledge. They could choose to betray the HeroQuest at some point, or do something unexpected. This probably won't end the HeroQuest but might open up new possibilities.

 

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, DrGoth said:

But if a Lunar tried to be Orlanth, that's ... harder.

I don’t know though: Red Goddess —> Orlanth seems the same kind of substitution as Etyries —> Issaries and Irrippi Ontor —> Lhankor Mhy, no?

The windy one and the rotating one are both rebel gods who sorta–kinda overturn the old Solar order to build up their own parts. Sedenya and Orlanth are both supposed to be fire–sky descendants, aren’t they? And in each case, that claim seems like a bid for legitimacy. There is a whiff of the outside about the pair of them. They fight not because they are different but because they occupy the same niche — and there is always the narcissism of small differences.

Now, where did I put my fag papers? I have a magical test to perform.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

I don’t know though: Red Goddess —> Orlanth seems the same kind of substitution as Etyries —> Issaries and Irrippi Ontor —> Lhankor Mhy, no?

The windy one and the rotating one are both rebel gods who sorta–kinda overturn the old Solar order to build up their own parts. Sedenya and Orlanth are both supposed to be fire–sky descendants, aren’t they? And in each case, that claim seems like a bid for legitimacy. There is a whiff of the outside about the pair of them. They fight not because they are different but because they occupy the same niche — and there is always the narcissism of small differences.

Now, where did I put my fag papers? I have a magical test to perform.

substituting people for the Lightbringer's quest is how we ended up with the Red Moon in the first place. They clearly were riffing off the Lightbringers' quest. The details might be different (we don't know AFAIK), but largely they did katabasis for the Sun Moon.

[Soccercalle]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

substituting people for the Lightbringer's quest is how we ended up with the Red Moon in the first place. They clearly were riffing off the Lightbringers' quest. The details might be different (we don't know AFAIK), but largely they did katabasis for the Sun Moon.

Yes. The heroquest made by the Seven Mothers is definitely an experimential heroquest based on the LBQ. With a lot of differences but also strong similarities. Yanafal Tarnils is a Mother but Humakt was not part of the LBQ.

[Bren]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

I don’t know though: Red Goddess —> Orlanth seems the same kind of substitution as Etyries —> Issaries and Irrippi Ontor —> Lhankor Mhy, no?

There are differences. Seven Mothers and Orlanth are Hostile to each other. Issaries and Lhankor Mhy are neutral to the Seven Mothers and vice versa.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Soccercalle said:

Yes. The heroquest made by the Seven Mothers is definitely an experimential heroquest based on the LBQ. With a lot of differences but also strong similarities. Yanafal Tarnils is a Mother but Humakt was not part of the LBQ.

Now I want to know if the Maiden is Ginna Jar without making a chart

[mfbrandi]

19 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

substituting people for the Lightbringer's quest is how we ended up with the Red Moon in the first place. They clearly were riffing off the Lightbringers' quest.

I like to think the Lunies were playing a long game and using the windy one and his mates as lab rats for a trial run and to prepare the ground a little. Still waiting for the final(?) reveal.

[mfbrandi]

20 minutes ago, Bren said:

There are differences. Seven Mothers and Orlanth are Hostile to each other. Issaries and Lhankor Mhy are neutral to the Seven Mothers and vice versa.

But those are typical responses of cultists on cult business, right? Even then, they might be rote/ritualised or vary from place to place. It is mortal politics. They don’t necessarily indicate magical/mythical incompatibilities — or personal antipathy between player characters.

And lions and tigers might fight like cats and … err, cats? — but maybe for my Las Vegas magic act that incompatibility doesn’t matter: either one would do (and I don’t need both). I just need something big and angry to put in a cage and make go poof!

Right? (By which I mean I could be wrong, very wrong.)

[jajagappa]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:21 PM, GoldShogun said:

I imagine when people go on a heroquest the band is usually made up of people who worship gods that are associated, friendly or neutral towards each other but what happens if a heroquesters companion worships a god that is hostile or even an enemy to their own. What happens then? Does the heroquest change in anyway such as having a more unexpected outcome.

Worship ceremonies during Sacred Time or High Holy Days will feature the hero and companions, and then require others to take on the role of the foe or deity who is hostile or an enemy. These figures will always be marked or recognizable as the foe.  These type of heroquests will be very constrained and the stories have predictable outcomes.

With exploratory heroquests, you'd usually expect a starting point with the heroic leader (named god), explicit known companions (associates, friends), and other known figures (e.g. Humakt is the sword of Orlanth, a neutral figure who could be Humakt or could literally be the leader's sword). The Arming of Orlanth story is a good example.

Then there are Trickster companions. Unpredictable figures - often a friendly, known face, but could and quite likely does betray the leader in the story in some capacity. 

If the companion worships a hostile or enemy deity, then what? Depends on how they are positioned in the quest. If the companion is taking on a Named Role, then the question is how closely do their Runes line up with the Named Role.  If a good fit, the deity they worship likely doesn't matter or only minimally (however, the companion's relationship/devotion/loyalty to their deity could take a hit if they perform the Named Role well and it does not line up with the deity they worship).

If the companion is not taking a Named Role, but going as their deity, then you need to break down further what that means to a quest.  E.g. Asborn the Orlanthi heads off on a quest and is joined by Varz the Zorak Zoran berserk. What is Varz' role? If they are the Hate that drives Asborn in this quest, then they are fulfilling the quest's goal (and their role as ZZ).  If, in the story, Chalana Arroy overcomes Asborn's Hatred, though, what does this mean? For the quest to succeed, Varz must be overcome (perhaps Asborn must reject him, or CA puts Varz to sleep). Varz may simply drop out of the quest at that point - his task in the quest is done. OR Varz wakes up or comes around and takes Asborn's rejection personally - Varz has been betrayed! Asborn succeeds in this quest, but has now acquired an enemy - the side effect of the one quest is that the story of how ZZ came to hate Orlanth has also come to fruition, and that carries on in the real world. Varz leaves the company of Asborn forever, and now works against Asborn.

Of course, if Asborn and Varz are both PC's in the game, Varz must come address this conflict - does he retain his Loyalty to Asborn or his Devotion to ZZ? If the former, his devotion to ZZ and even his Hatreds of X, Y, and Z do as well. If the latter, well maybe the player decides to retire Varz...

[Shiningbrow]

I think... (and parts of this have been suggested/hinted at above)...

It all depends on what the Heroquest is for, and what you're expecting as an end goal.

If it's exploratory, then anything goes, and you can take who you like.

However, if you're doing something tried and true, I see two issues with it.

Firstly, as stated above - there's no way that any clan or priesthood is going to take on along enemy except to act in the role of an enemy (and, personally, I can't see too many enemy cultists being willing to enter such a Heroquest... I suppose you could somehow convince a ZZ to go along on a Hill of Gold to beat up a Yelmalion* ... but I'm not sure just how likely that would ever be).

Secondly, if you're re-enacting myths, then by definition you need to have a good idea of what that myth is in order to do so - and that's what Cult Lore is all about - the inner workings and mysteries of the cult. Therefore, logically, if they're not an initiate of the god, (or one with a similar story - eg LBQ, which is shared across the various participants in the pantheon), and if they don't have the right magicks (both Rune Spells & Rune Affinity), then they're not going to know what to do when push comes to shove... and then you're in exploration mode!

Sure, I could see Thanatari taking heads and learning various Cult Lores and do this. I can also see sorcerers dominating initiates and getting them to teach them the same. And, of course, if you're Illuminated, you can just sneak your way in.

 

So, for me, it's less about who you are, and much more about what you know and can do.

 

 

(* just a thought - should this be pronounced as 'Yel-MAY-lion', or like the Merlion in Singapore 'Yelm-a-LEEon"?? 'YELM-a-LION'??)

[radmonger]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:59 PM, mfbrandi said:

I don’t know though: Red Goddess —> Orlanth seems the same kind of substitution as Etyries —> Issaries and Irrippi Ontor —> Lhankor Mhy, no?

Surely Danfive Xaron, the repentant murderer and bandit, is the natural substitute for Orlanth?  Some versions of his writeup give him the air rune, though i think the current canonical runes are .

in my personal draft HQ rules, a simple rune affinity roll, and 1-3 RPs, lets you deal with any obstacle that the deity your are representing mythically did, in the manner in which they did so. You don't get to chose your tactics, or pick consequences; you just do what they did. How well it works depends on the roll. Hence cult lore is a very useful skill, in that it tells you what will happen if you choose this option.

if you are doing a simple reenactment quest, with a full complement of rune lords near the CHA cap for RP. this is the only resolution mechanism you need.

Things are rarely that clean and simple. which leaves several alternatives:

- substitute a different rune affinity, while representing the same god. Presumably this is how you get Orlanth Dragonfriend.

- substitute a different god, paying an extra toll in RP. The result is  'what they would have done, were they there'. 

- use your own personal skills and powers

The more things go off-kilter as a result of doing these things, the more it is necessary to keep doubling down on them, as you are not doing a simple reenactment any more.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

Surely Danfive Xaron, the repentant murderer and bandit, is the natural substitute for Orlanth?  Some versions of his writeup give him the air rune, though i think the current canonical runes are .

I do love this, and it made me laugh out loud, but I am a card-carrying Orlanth skeptic … and I don’t even carry my Official Coward card in case being caught with it gets me into trouble.

(Remember that in the current case, we are not considering how the 7M pulled off their “partially successful” quest but considering subbing Lunar worshippers into a primarily Lightbringer-worshipping group of mortals doing an LBQ recreation/LARP (or whatever you want to call it). That may make a difference — but maybe it doesn’t, and maybe we don’t care.)

I guess we can see Danfive as a Raskolnikov, a murderer who undergoes a spiritual rebirth. Orlanth is a prideful murderer who kills to show — us, daddy Yelm, wife–mother Ernalda, or himself? — that he is a Napoleon, but I never bought the idea of him as penitent. He is more of a Norman Bates faking out the psychiatrists in his blanket. (Which may give another perspective on (stabby things in slap and a skirt) Vinga as a mask of Orlanth. And Nontraya? He is more interested in Ernalda when she is dead? Yuck!)

Maybe Danfive sees himself as a miserable sinner, but surely Orlanth’s attitude is “I shook hands with Yelm; I brought back the sun; you have more reason than ever now to recognise me as king of the gods!” Orlanth may have been brought low on his quest, but did he bring back humility as a new trait to incorporate into his personality? Isn’t the big O still too much like pre-7M bandit Danfive? (Didn’t we do Orlanth Penitent a while back?)

Danfive may not be an official Lunar psychopomp, but his name — Xaron = Charon — and his “friendship” with Jeset say otherwise. “Gatekeeper, Porter, and Night Watchman” position him as a liminal deity, too. So isn’t DX more of an Issaries figure? Issaries who is also a guardian. Runically, I think we can see the combo as a rough equivalent of — Moon is a dynamic, spinning balance, rather than something static. the two gods already have in common, and arguably (sez I) if Issaries is a psychopomp without a Death rune, comes close to being two combined:

Issaries as secret owner of the Death rune? Always display the goods to best advantage; truth in advertising be damned.

[radmonger]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So isn’t DX more of an Issaries figure?

 

Good call. Etyries, the direct Lunar equivalent of Issaries, isn't one of the 7 mothers. So the thresholds and guardians that Issaries deals with in the original lbq have to be handled by someone else. So roles ends up being shuffled round, in much the way a World of Warcraft 5-person group has to adapt when the main healer is a druid instead of a cleric.

The prototypical Lightbringer tribal society has traders, chieftains, lawspeakers, tricksters and priestesses:

• Issaries: cleverness in negotiation leads to good management of resources, which helps guide the group along the path[1].
• Orlanth;  successful use of violence leads to legitimate leadership of the group
• Lhankor Mhy; i know many things, including what is right and what is not.
• Eurmal: when things go wrong, blame me. After all, i probably did it.
• Ernalda: even while dead, I persuaded Yelm to let the boys rescue him; I don't need to be in charge to tell people what to do.

 

The Lunarised Lightbringers of Tarsh and northwards are instead organised around soldiers, secret police, the imperial bureaucracy, and the Emperor:

• Yanafal Tarnils: honorable violence is legitimate when ordered by the group's leader; a leader is legitimate if the violence they order is honorable. And I know what is honorable.
• Danfive Xaron: cleverness in the use of violence solves many problems. Taking the blame later removes the need to ask permission. And the leader can't be held responsible for what they never knew about.
• irripi Ontor: knowing how to manage resources avoids them running out[2]
• Red Godess: being dead didn't stop me from taking over from Yelm

Healers (Chalana Arroy/Deezola) and shamans (Flesh Man/Jakaleel) are common to both societies. Also involved are:

• Yelm/Teelo Norri: I died, which kicked off the whole plot.
• Ginna Jar/She Who Waits: even after complete understanding, some secrets remain.

The clash between the two societal myths itself has its origin in the mythical origins of Dragon Pass [3].

 

 

[1]  https://www.marxist.com/technology-innovation-growtn-and-capitalism.htm

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/08/red-plenty-francis-spufford

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambo_III.

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by radmonger

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, radmonger said:

Orlanth;  successful use of violence leads to legitimate leadership of the group

So if we are casting the Lunars as communists, I guess an ever-reincarnating Lenin is the Red Emperor (the son), Trotsky is Nysalor (the holy ghost), and Marx is Sedenya (the father)??? I can’t see the Orlanthi as the Hayekian opposition, though, as I think you are spot on with this might-makes-right take on Orlanth. Does that make Orlanth Mussolini? I can see this parallel collapsing — Glorantha’s at the wrong stage of economic development — but collapsing gloriously!

7 hours ago, radmonger said:

Teelo Norri: I died, which kicked off the whole plot.

Who died? If Teelo = Sedenya, I see the point: she may be breathing and walking around, but pre-ritual, she is dead (post-ritual, she is halfway back). But if Teelo is some kind of host body for the Sedenya-parasite, the emergence of Sedenya doesn’t kill the host — Teelo isn’t John Hurt’s Kane to Sedenya’s parasitoid broo–alien. Right?

Or maybe Teelo is just a kid who is conned/magicked into thinking she is a goddess on earth so she can lead a revolution.

But DX does get the shitty end of the stick/sharp edge of the sickle, I think.

Old non-canon stuff consigned to the occlusion of the third eye box:

Spoiler

A key component of the ritual was a human victim, whom they called Bridge for the Seeker. Thus, however unwilling, Danfive Xaron is one of the Seven Mothers, and his partial success in the ritual resulted in his immortality. His spirit remained in the Suffer Plains of Hell until Her Enlightenment, before the Reparture. Afterwards he lived under Her protection. — ILH vol. 2, p. 59

Teelo Norri was a thirteen-year-old orphan from the streets of Torang. Yet within her was the sleeping Goddess, for she was simply the latest physical incarnation of the Goddess, who had taken mortal form many times since the Dawn Age. Time and again born and reborn until the right time, when she met the guides who would lead her back to immortality.

In 1220, the others of the Seven Mothers performed the Awakening Rites and woke Teelo Estara, the nascent Goddess, within the body of Teelo Norri. The consciousness of Teelo Norri faded away, but the intact child returned to life upon the Repartation at the Battle of Chaos. — ILH vol. 2, p. 91

Edited May 21, 2023 by mfbrandi
Teela —> Teelo (I blame Larry Niven)

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, radmonger said:

shamans (Flesh Man/Jakaleel) are common to both societies. Also involved are:

• Yelm/Teelo Norri: I died, which kicked off the whole plot.

I suppose a Flesh Man cultist might be a shaman. Flesh Man himself, though, is maybe:

• innocence personified
• god made mortal flesh — if Malkion = Christ, not (as some turns of phrase suggest) the prophet, PBUH

… which might suggest a Flesh Man–Teelo Norri equivalence.

[DrGoth]

21 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Danfive may not be an official Lunar psychopomp, but his name — Xaron = Charon — and his “friendship” with Jeset say otherwise. “Gatekeeper, Porter, and Night Watchman” position him as a liminal deity, too. So isn’t DX more of an Issaries figure? Issaries who is also a guardian. Runically, I think we can see the combo as a rough equivalent of — Moon is a dynamic, spinning balance, rather than something static. the two gods already have in common, and arguably (sez I) if Issaries is a psychopomp without a Death rune, comes close to being two combined:

 

I can buy a lot of the reasoning here, but I'm not convinced about the Issaries analogy "Gatekeeper". "Night watchman".  That's more a guard than a guide. I struggle to see Danfive in any of the LB roles.  The closest I can come is Eurmal - both are held on a leash.

[Nick Brooke]

53 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

I struggle to see Danfive in any of the LB roles.  The closest I can come is Eurmal - both are held on a leash.

Danfive is closest to Orlanth, a notorious murderer and outlaw.
Yanafal Tarnils is Eurmal, who both stole and cheated Death.

These are equivalencies that a Seven Mothers missionary might be thinking of, but is unlikely explicitly to preach. So you didn't hear them from me.

[DrGoth]

6 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Danfive is closest to Orlanth, a notorious murderer and outlaw.
Yanafal Tarnils is Eurmal, who both stole and cheated Death.

These are equivalencies that a Seven Mothers missionary might be thinking of, but is unlikely explicitly to preach. So you didn't hear them from me.

I think it would be very brave missionary that tried to draw any such equivalencies.

[Nick Brooke]

45 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

I think it would be very brave missionary that tried to draw any such equivalencies.

But you can see them too, right? And that’s the point.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I struggle to see Danfive in any of the LB roles.  The closest I can come is Eurmal - both are held on a leash.

I think this image from the 7 Steps of the Goddess is useful in thinking about LB roles (this pic from the Prince of Sartar comic).

Who is the Sky Bear upon the Red Goddess' quest? It is DX, and this is seen subsequently in his cultists wearing bear skin cloaks.

Who is the Sky Bear in the heavens? It is Orlanth, or Orlanth's Ring, or Odayla son of Orlanth.

On the LB quest, we are used to seeing Orlanth as Quest Leader. The story tells us so, and we make it so in our minds.

In the Red Goddess quest, we are used to seeing Yanafal as Quest Leader and DX in chains, and cannot think of DX as Quest Leader, so we do not.

Yet, these are tales we have seen and embraced only from one view or vantage point. 

Consider the LB quest from Yelm the Dead God's perspective: "I summoned the Sky Bear to the Underworld and tamed him into submission."

It is no longer so different from the Red Goddess quest.

And when we hear in the Red Goddess quest that DX "volunteered for the most dangerous task" do we not hear echoes of Orlanth volunteering to do the same when "Orlanth underwent the Requirement for Proof. Three searing baths were prepared, and Orlanth submerged in each of them. They were baths of Fire, of Hatred, and of Truth. If he had not been in the Baths of Nelat before he would have died for certain."?

Is this not also the suffering and penitence of DX?

Edited May 21, 2023 by jajagappa