Lhankor Mhy and Sorcery - most likely place for it to exist ?

[Agentorange]

What it says really. In which area of Genertela published or unpublished does everybody feel that LM  sorcerers are most likely to exist, be accepted , prosper, be a widespread part of society  etc etc ?

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

What it says really. In which area of Genertela published or unpublished does everybody feel that LM  sorcerers are most likely to exist, be accepted , prosper, be a widespread part of society  etc etc ?

Well, they are accepted in Sartar.  Anywhere there is an Orlanthi city, Lhankoring sorcerors are there as part of society.

The only places where they are not likely to be are places that don't have Orlanthi (eg Kralorela) or are hostile to Orlanthi (eg Heartlands).

[Agentorange]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Well, they are accepted in Sartar.  Anywhere there is an Orlanthi city, Lhankoring sorcerors are there as part of society.

The only places where they are not likely to be are places that don't have Orlanthi (eg Kralorela) or are hostile to Orlanthi (eg Heartlands).

true enough, but...... ( isn't there always ?  😃 )  they're accepted in sartar. But it occurred to me that in places where the Invisible God is widely worshipped that they might actually be more widespread. where the various sorcery focused heresies encourage worship of gods as well is likley to be a place where Lhankor Mhy sorcery wouldn't just be accepted but could actively flourish.

[metcalph]

32 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

true enough, but...... ( isn't there always ?  😃 )  they're accepted in sartar. But it occurred to me that in places where the Invisible God is widely worshipped that they might actually be more widespread. where the various sorcery focused heresies encourage worship of gods as well is likley to be a place where Lhankor Mhy sorcery wouldn't just be accepted but could actively flourish.

IMO Lhankor Mhy sorcery can't actively flourish because they are too obsessed with knowledge rather than magic.  They will always be beaten into third place by the Zzaburi (regardless of which school they come from).  Lhankor Mhy is important in Ralian lands but the further westward one goes, I think he will displaced by the rival cult of Enroval the Philosopher whose worship is more compatible with the Zzabuiri mindset.  

[JRE]

If I understand the question, it is more about the ratio between sorcery using LM Sages, and spirit magic using sages. 

I normally restrict sorcerer sages to large temples, while small ones normally cannot afford having someone more specialized in knowledge gathering and emotion control, and do not have good enough teachers for sorcery anyway, as they must be focused in lawspeaking. Though you may always put a sorcerer in a small temple if needed, sent by arcane reasons, losing an internal debate or just disagreements on spirit taxonomy with the High Sage.

The true paradise will be Nochet and other major ports, as there you can devote years just to master some magics, and probably learn other sorceries. But in most places you have a large temple of Lhankor Mhy you will have a specialized sorcery school.

In Henotheist Safelster you may well have side by side a pure sorcery temple, teaching other sorceries besides the LM Grimoire, with a Lankstian lawspeaker school that just does not bother with sorcery as anyone interested will just go to the other one.

Lhankor Mhy structure will be absorbed by the Zzabur caste in areas where castes are rigid.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I agree with @JRE

In my opinion  :

anywhere in the dragon pass (prax included) where you find a great library/temple, you will have some sorcery students/teachers.

In lower cult sites the most common would be juste guys dedicated to the social and business local activities (law speakers, scribes for diplomacy, story and inventory, translators etc...)

The spells LM proposes are focused on research, so I consider little places have not enough to "support" researchers, they focus on their priorities. When they need new knowledge, they send their LM to the big temple to get the answer.

 

Are dragon pass LM sorcerers accepted anywhere in Orlanthi land ? I don't know. I don't know,  for example, if in "wild" orlanthi (like east Ralios) the local LM accepts sorcery.

But it is a cult concern.

For the Orlanthi people, those who are not "initiated", those who don't know how the cult works, is it possible to identify if this effect is from a spirit spell or from a sorcery spell ? At least in my game no.

Ok , you feel the presence of a god so divine spell can be detected, but will you know what this guy muttering to himself and fiddling his beard is doing ?

Then, if you don't know the spell, if it is done by an accepted, trusted but weird guy  (LM is trusted of course, as it is those who defend the truth... But how weird they are, they even know how to read and write ! ), you don't care what it is, that's just LM secrets, and you are happy if it works

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

While what the others wrote is correct, there are the more obvious considerations.

Firstly, to learn any sorcery, you need to have the INT to get the Techniques & Runes. That automatically brings down the number of potential LM candidates.

Next, they need to have already been able to read and write to an effective level in order to cast at an effective level. That, once again, reduces the number of places where they're likely to be. According to the book, the training should start from a young age, and that means the R/W must be developed from a young age. Not many people in a rural area are going to have that option. Realistically, either the child of a noble or a scribe - both of which are in relatively short supply except in the larger cities, and a few towns.

Then, of course, there has to be a teacher who knows any sorcery... and who is willing to take time out to teach it. Given most LM scribes are going to be focussed on knowledge acquisition, that's not likely to be common.  (except for the rare LM scholar who is on their own doing their own thing, and wants a dogsbody to do things).

 

Of the above, I think the R/W is actually the most important factor when looking at concentrations.

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Agentorange said:

In which area of Genertela published or unpublished does everybody feel that LM  sorcerers are most likely to exist, be accepted , prosper, be a widespread part of society  etc etc ?

The Holy Country. There are several sorcerous traditions among the LM there.

Jeff's post on Belintar the Patron is relevant in this regard: Belintar the Patron

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, JRE said:

If I understand the question, it is more about the ratio between sorcery using LM Sages, and spirit magic using sages. 

As presented now, there is no true sorcery using vs. spirit magic using sages. They are all spirit magic users and some use sorcery as well.

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

They will always be beaten into third place by the Zzaburi (regardless of which school they come from).  Lhankor Mhy is important in Ralian lands but the further westward one goes, I think he will displaced by the rival cult of Enroval the Philosopher whose worship is more compatible with the Zzabuiri mindset. 

I suspect you are correct, but we will only be able to see this once the rules for Mlkioni sorcery are published.

[Darius West]

Why is nobody actually talking about The Torvald Fragments and their history?  Lhankor My was the original custodian of the Eternal Book, which was stolen by Zzabur in the God's War.  Parts were recovered and became the Great Scrolls.  During the Second Age, the LM hero Torvald recovered the Alien Combination Machine and several Great Scrolls, and these became the foundation for the Torvald Fragments.  My understanding is that Torvald operated out of the Great Library in Nochet City, and that is where the original Torvald Fragments are presently housed, and is the origin point for LM sorcery.  If this is imperfect info, I am very eager to hear about it and would love to know where the sources are to be found.

[davecake]

Sorcery use amongst the LM Sages is also probably connected to the strong enthusiasm for the LM cult by the God Learners.

Was LM as linked to sorcery in the First Age? Maybe. But they certainly seem to have embraced sorcery wholesale during the Second Age. And of course, it happened most in Nochet - which, as the greatest seaport in Genertela (probably all Glorantha) was a very notable point of interaction between the Lightbringers and the Middle Sea Empire. The HeroQuest Kingdom of Sartar book describes this as many LM Sages being confused into thinking that the Abiding Book was the same as the Eternal Book, when it really just contained secrets from the Eternal Book stolen by Zzabur. And the Alien Combination Machine purifies such knowledge by translating it back into Theyalan (almost certainly the Elasa Secrets script). It seems the result of a hero quest to find a way to retain the knowledge of all the nifty sorcery they had learned but severing its connecting with God Learning. It makes sense that Torvald would be a hero from Nochet where the study of sorcery was most valued, and that the most complete knowledge of the Torvald Fragments is housed there.

Quite why they have only fragments is another interesting side question - and I suspect the answer is to do with Torvald getting caught up in the downfall of the God Learners somehow. Perhaps even just being on a boat caught in the Closing, but could be more, maybe the Gift Carriers came for him because he knew too much, he seems to have pulled off quite the God Learning feat himself. 

But if Torvald was a Second Age figure, it raises the question of whether the LM cult used sorcery prior to the Second Age and their learning sorcery from Western sources. It would suggest not, if prior to that point the Torvald Fragments and the Alien Communication Machine was not known to the cult. 

Another theory, though, is that LM is originally, or is the same as, a Western mythic entity, perhaps Tadenit the inventor of writing (and maybe Issaries likewise is the same as Kachast), and so it would make sense that LM has always had some sorcery, if embedded in deep knowledge of the Elasa Secrets. The LM cult also claims that its knowledge of alchemy, often linked to sorcery, was learnt from Mostal in the God Time. 

And, as Jeff has been making clear that Buserian and Lhankor Mhy have been recognised as the same entity since the First Age, what knowledge of sorcery they had or how do they understand its origins. 

Of course, most of this wouldn't be that well understood or acknowledged by most modern Sages. 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

But if Torvald was a Second Age figure, it raises the question of whether the LM cult used sorcery prior to the Second Age and their learning sorcery from Western sources. It would suggest not, if prior to that point the Torvald Fragments and the Alien Communication Machine was not known to the cult. 

When Arkat joined the Lightbringers, he gave his Brithini relics to them for safekeeping. Lhankhor Mhy might have been able to study them and to gain sorcery from them.

[davecake]

24 minutes ago, soltakss said:

When Arkat joined the Lightbringers, he gave his Brithini relics to them for safekeeping. Lhankhor Mhy might have been able to study them and to gain sorcery from them.

While this is true, it seems likely Brithini sorcery would still be regarded as evil alien magic. Except for any Sages who are Illuminated Arkati, of course. Those relics probably live in the secret Special Collection section of the library. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:29 AM, davecake said:

And the Alien Combination Machine purifies such knowledge by translating it back into Theyalan (almost certainly the Elasa Secrets script).

 

On 6/17/2023 at 8:29 AM, davecake said:

Quite why they have only fragments is another interesting side question - and I suspect the answer is to do with Torvald getting caught up in the downfall of the God Learners somehow.

 

I like your post however some questions :

 

As I understand, sorcery is "neutral" : it uses the runes to do thing. Are things good or evil is not due to sorcery "system" ; like sword or feather, that's jus how to use it , what you want. So what means purify then ?

 

In the same way sorcerers can create the effects they wish, if they are smart and prepared enough. As LM resources are exceptional, I don't understand why the LM sorcerers did not create spells they did not found.

In my opinion, the reason is there are three levels of sorecery spells from a LM perspective :

- the spells that any LM sorcerers "should" know to do a good LM job (those we have, and that could be called Torvald fragments.) Not because Torvald didn't know more, just because he thought it was not necessary to LM students. I see it like any irl school program, decision makers define what the school will teach, of course it is a selection. Sometimes a new government (or any dedicated entity, in our case cult, or local temple) will change the program, focus on new thing, or change the proportion of this subject and this subject.

- the spells that any LM sorcerers "may" know if they think this spell will be usefull for themselves. They have to find a teacher or to create it. Probably a large number of spells are known by different LM masters, or somewhere described in some books in one of their library-temple however that is a personal path, not "supported" by the cult (= "at school") even if accepted.

- the forbidden spells  (if they are). Those who are against LM's way (against great compromise) like what we think at first when we think "god learner" (steal divine power) "vampire" (steal life power) "chaos" (corrupt xxx) or things like that. Maybe Torvald (or LM cult) had access and purge it, Maybe he had not, who knows

[Agentorange]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:41 PM, jajagappa said:

The Holy Country. There are several sorcerous traditions among the LM there.

Jeff's post on Belintar the Patron is relevant in this regard: Belintar the Patron

Thanks for everybodies thoughts. i must admit in terms of something close to the playable detailed areas of the game so far - sartar/dragon pass. The holy country did strike me a being a good place, and pretty much for the reasons jajagappa suggests.

[JRE]

I would assume LM inherits the Tap reluctance of Malkioni (separating them from Brithini and Vadeli), and probably enshrines it as a cult requirement, rather than a moral injunction, which is why many Malkioni (and players) end up tempted  by the power of Steal Breath and similar spells.

[davecake]

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

As I understand, sorcery is "neutral" : it uses the runes to do thing. Are things good or evil is not due to sorcery "system" ; like sword or feather, that's jus how to use it , what you want. So what means purify then ?

Remove from it whatever the God Learners did that was so wrong that things like the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods found it necessary to seek them out and destroy them. It's not even necessarily a moral judgement, but an empirical one - have the gods sent assassins to destroy everyone who knows what you know? if they haven't, good! 

If sorcery is neutral, but the God Learners were so bad that they caused cataclysms in which the gods/elder races/almost everyone tried to destroy them, then the Alien Combination Machine is a way to keep sorcery neutral by making it less God Learnery. But they don't exactly know what is the bad stuff (and they can't, because the knowledge has been destroyed, unless they accidentally replicate it, in which case too late) so they just remove stuff that seems suspect - which is basically everything obviously Western and Malkioni, translating it to things that are more trustworthy (=Theyalan). 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

n the same way sorcerers can create the effects they wish, if they are smart and prepared enough. As LM resources are exceptional, I don't understand why the LM sorcerers did not create spells they did not found.

Yeah, and this is why I think the rules as written 'hey, just anyone can make up a spell they want' is way too easy. Sorcery as a system can (within reason, and the as-yet-undefined limits of sorcery*), but I think it's such harder - it requires expert sorcerers working for years, building on past work, etc. Probably a form of hero questing. I think creating new spells from nothing (rather than translating from existing grimoires) is very difficult. I think the LM cult expanding its sorcery skill well beyond Truth rune magic would be a work of many sages over many years working together, and that happens pretty seldom. You need not just mastery of the Rune, but existing spells etc to work from. They only have that knowledge for Truth rune magic - and really the LM cult has little incentive to master other areas.

Of course it is possible though. The Buseri and Irripi Ontor cults have knowledge of celestial magic - the only reason LM doesn't too is their lack of interest. Irripi Ontor also has access too Lunar magic, also the references to Irripi Ontor using glamour seem to suggest Illusion knowledge but IO is much less conservative than LM and is presumably assisted through various hero questing and Lunar insights. And the Lunar College of Magic exists as a coordinating body to make sustained magical innovation in specific areas practical. 

But once the Sartar Magical Union gets going, who knows what happens. 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

In my opinion, the reason is there are three levels of sorecery spells from a LM perspective :

- the spells that any LM sorcerers "should" know to do a good LM job (those we have, and that could be called Torvald fragments.) Not because Torvald didn't know more, just because he thought it was not necessary to LM students.

I'm inclined to think the Torvald Fragments are pretty much the only sorcery spells that the LM cult has available to them in easily usable form. They are in Elasa Script, and the LM sorcerers also commonly teach mastery of the central runes. 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the spells that any LM sorcerers "may" know if they think this spell will be usefull for themselves. They have to find a teacher or to create it. Probably a large number of spells are known by different LM masters, or somewhere described in some books in one of their library-temple however that is a personal path, not "supported" by the cult (= "at school") even if accepted.

I agree - but it's not just a matter of 'not in the curriculum'. They generally are very hard to find in translated form. Want to go an learn a bunch of celestial sorcery? Sure, we have a Buseri grimoire that explains it. You are going to have to learn Dara Happen though. Translate it into Theyalan? Why would an LM Sage do that, when it has no magical benefit to them (they obviously can already read Dara Happan)? Information about many areas of sorcery can be found in the archives of LM temples - but mostly written in Western. Sometimes Auld Wyrmish, or Dara Happen, or Kralorelan. And trying to find training to Master the Fire rune, or Illusion or Sea rune in a LM temple? 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the forbidden spells  (if they are). Those who are against LM's way (against great compromise) like what we think at first when we think "god learner" (steal divine power) "vampire" (steal life power) "chaos" (corrupt xxx) or things like that.

Such works are forbidden or restricted regardless of whether they are sorcerous in nature or not. But who knows what lurks in  the hidden stacks. Of course, discovering them is often a sign that your temple in the past hosted vampires or Illuminates or worse. 

*compare Ars Magica (truly, the greatest game for a sorcery like magic system) which actually does have precisely defined limits of magic, just one of many ideas RQ sorcery could benefit from. 

[Shiningbrow]

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

I agree - but it's not just a matter of 'not in the curriculum'. They generally are very hard to find in translated form. Want to go an learn a bunch of celestial sorcery? Sure, we have a Buseri grimoire that explains it. You are going to have to learn Dara Happen though. Translate it into Theyalan? Why would an LM Sage do that, when it has no magical benefit to them (they obviously can already read Dara Happan)? Information about many areas of sorcery can be found in the archives of LM temples - but mostly written in Western. Sometimes Auld Wyrmish, or Dara Happen, or Kralorelan. And trying to find training to Master the Fire rune, or Illusion or Sea rune in a LM temple? 

For most LM temples, I agree. However, in the much larger ones - especially in Nochet - that's not going to be the case. I would imagine quite a number learning about sorcery as their specialisation, and will either know those languages, or have Logician'ed it*, and perhaps even translated into Theyalan. It is, after all, knowledge!

I would also imagine that those runes you mention are also trainable in Nochet.

So, next question - which is the whole point of this thread - where else? Jonstown should have a few people...

 

 

(*need a ruling on learning stuff while using Logician and Total Recall)

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Translate it into Theyalan? Why would an LM Sage do that, when it has no magical benefit to them

that's a good point I will keep in mind. No reason to find everything in the only script you know.

That could be a good requirement to learn other script if a LM (n)pc wants to learn a specific spell. Of course, once known (script + spell) few will spend (waste ?) time to make it easier for collegues 🙂

@Shiningbrow's Nochet temple seems to me fine too; So many people there ; probably some would like to have "permanent" students (lust power is part of the world, right ?) so creating internal "schools" of sorcery centered to the Master (oath of loyalty , and any other reason to give this temporal power) will be more "popular" if more intellectualy accessible. (Yes there are lazy scholars 😛 )

 

6 hours ago, davecake said:

eah, and this is why I think the rules as written 'hey, just anyone can make up a spell they want' is way too easy. (...)

I understand, but they are some reason to let it easy (players who want to create, etc...) from a gameplay perspective. Even if  Usually I consider that the rules are dedicated to the pc (runepool of 3 etc...)  but in this specific case I would say that the rules must be applied to anyone.

So 2.5 options imo :

1) create your own set of rule

2) follow the rules for everyone because that is rqg

2.5) follow the rules and wish that the sorcery supplement will provide more explanation / restriction / taboo / heroquest - heropower /  anything

Our gloranthas may vary then 🙂

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Of course, once known (script + spell) few will spend (waste ?) time to make it easier for collegues 🙂

I don't agree with this point. I think scholars do actually want their works to be available and easier for colleagues. After all, that's what scholars and academics do in this world, and there's really not that much difference in this situation. (not too easy, of course - you still have to be an academic to understand it... it's just not for the riff-raff.. which wouldn't matter anyway, given the rest of the training needed)

[JRE]

I play that a spell in one script still is limited by your knowledge in that script, even if translated, because the magic is not easily translated. I allow to create a new spell in your preferred script using such a spell as a reference, but you still need a R/W roll to avoid wasting a season.

That is why our sorcerer left Pavis with a growing knowledge of Old Pavic and Old Jrusteli, because they were the languages of the grimoires he found. His preferred script, and the one he learnt LM spells in Nochet, is Theyalan.

[DrGoth]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I don't agree with this point. I think scholars do actually want their works to be available and easier for colleagues. After all, that's what scholars and academics do in this world, and there's really not that much difference in this situation. (not too easy, of course - you still have to be an academic to understand it... it's just not for the riff-raff.. which wouldn't matter anyway, given the rest of the training needed)

It's what modern scholars, do sure.  But in previous times?  Not always so much. Remember Leonardo and mirror writing.  Sometimes knowledge is hoarded, not shared.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:09 AM, DrGoth said:

It's what modern scholars, do sure.  But in previous times?  Not always so much. Remember Leonardo and mirror writing.  Sometimes knowledge is hoarded, not shared.

and even modern 🙂

of course there are a lot who collaborate and work for the global truth / knowledge

however there are some who keep for them for glory, ambition or anything personal

I don't know if it was the same every where, but french physicians and research teams controversies during covid did not prove that every scholar is collaborating (not because controversy, that's part of research process, but how these controversies were led)

[davecake]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:09 PM, DrGoth said:

It's what modern scholars, do sure.  But in previous times?  Not always so much. Remember Leonardo and mirror writing.  Sometimes knowledge is hoarded, not shared.

Or Trithemius who seems to have literally invented a fair bit of early cryptography, as well as the idea of steganography, in part to conceal occult ideas within other books of occultism (that are actually more texts on cryptography). 
Which seems bafflingly opaque, but would actually be not an unreasonable approach if you were sharing what you thought might possibly be the sort of secrets that got the God Learners hunted down by assassins. Which is a sort of prevailing worry for any LM studying God Learner era sorcerous texts.