Weekly minor holy days

[Malin]

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Dunno when this was added to the Q&A but I can't say I'm complaining.

You found it!! I thought I was dreaming! Thank you so much!

[Byll]

Do you still call it Fireday if you're a Yelmalian and it's your minor holy day? or should you call it Flashday or something?

[metcalph]

31 minutes ago, Byll said:

Do you still call it Fireday if you're a Yelmalian and it's your minor holy day? or should you call it Flashday or something?

No different from Ash Odin's Day, Holy Thor's Day or Good Freya's Day, no? 

Edited November 14, 2023 by metcalph

[7Tigers]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:48 PM, David Scott said:

Don't forget that their need to be enough initiates or lay members to be present. So Heler is unlikely to celebrate minor water days regularly.

I'm afraid I failed to find info about that particular point. Any hint about the related book / post about required lay members / initiates presence please?

Edited August 23 by 7Tigers

[Jens]

12 minutes ago, 7Tigers said:

I'm afraid I failed to find info about that particular point.

Take a look at temple sizes on page 284 of the core rules. Even a shrine (smallest size that lets you replenish rune points) needs 75-225 lay members and initiates.

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Jens said:

Take a look at temple sizes on page 284 of the core rules. Even a shrine (smallest size that lets you replenish rune points) needs 75-225 lay members and initiates.

The shrine is the smallest size of a site with an ongoing Sanctify effect. You can cast Sanctify on other places and replenish rune points if you succeed in performing a worship rite, but that's harder.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Jens said:

Take a look at temple sizes on page 284 of the core rules. Even a shrine (smallest size that lets you replenish rune points) needs 75-225 lay members and initiates.

The implication there is that that many people need to actually _show up_. Saying they need to be lay members is pretty much redundant. It is hard to think of a situation where people will show up regularly and not count as lay members. Whereas absent initiates are not going to move the meter.

For cults that are a primary focus of a community, like Orlanth and Ernalda in a typical rural Sartarite clan, having a weekly worship ceremony is pretty natural. Most of the clan shows up to one or the other. Initiates of associated cults typically pick one, though Helerings are traditionally expected to go to both.

Hence the correction to Yelmalio noted above. IMG any other cult that is in a similar cultural position should be treated as having a weekly holy day too, in that location only. 

It is in a town or city with multiple specialist temples available that the holy day calendar becomes important. There will be a floating population of city residents who might visit each temple associated to their cult a few times a year[1]. It is only on those few days that that temple really counts as its full size.

The practical implication for PCs is that:

• there is normally going to be a weekly service available to any PC.
• some weeks, some PCs will have to take the penalty for associated cult worship[2] when regaining rune magic
• PCs who want to avoid that penalty will have to either pay for Sanctify, or cast it themselves.
• Those who follow exotic cults with no local associates will have to cast Sanctify themselves.

I would further house rule that the default 10% time tithe only allows regularly attending one holy day per week. However, there is no reason a PC can't take on additional commitments (20 or 30% of time/income) without formally becoming a God Talker (default 50% commitment).

As a limit case, anyone in a reasonably large city who wants to spend a week doing nothing but attending any worship ceremony that lets them in the door can probably be assumed to regain all magic. Roll a worship skill to find out how large a donation they need to make to do this.

[1] as most full adults are initiated to a cult, most lay members of a cult are initiates of another, associated or neutral cult.

[2] RAW for a weekly holy day, this goes from 1D6 for initiate to 0 for associate, whereas in every other case it drops one step. e.g. from 1D6 to 1D3. I count this is a typo fix, but feel free to count it as a house rule.

 

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/17/2023 at 12:49 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A young man, SIZ 12, joins Orlanth.  He "pays" 1 POW.  For just one more POW (o.k., maybe 2), he can fly.  One of the great dreams of mankind through thousands of years, available for 1 POW?  Who isn't going to do this?

Anyone who prioritises the family & clan over their personal ego.

Remember that most Orlanthi will be worshippers of Barntar, and to get the Flight spell, they'd need to spend another POW to get into the Adventurous sub-cult (and, as you oddly ignored in the middle part of this quote) will take 2-3 POW, not simply 1.

 

On 9/17/2023 at 12:49 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A young woman joins Ernalda.  She pays 1 POW.  For just one more POW she can cast Bless Pregnancy.  Unlike real world women for thousands of years, she won't die during childbirth.  Who isn't going to do this?  Well, maybe she waits until she becomes pregnant to sacrifice the second POW.  And maybe a friend can cast the spell for her.  But it still seems like a very likely thing spell to obtain by the tie she is in her mid-20s.

Who isn't going to do this? Honestly, most women - because of how often it'll get used, vs who else has it, vs what other spells would be more useful every single day or week.

(One thing I found odd fright from the beginning is that all special cult spells (other than enchantments) are readily available upon initiation... I would have thought the bit about 'service' or 'special reward' type stuff would be more prominent).

 

On 9/17/2023 at 3:40 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the majority of Sartarite men are initiates of  Orlanth. If I follow your way, it would mean that all battles against Sartarite should be on air:

No. The majority of Sartarite men are Initiates of Barntar - an aspect (now) of Orlanth. So, they don't get easy access to Flight. (it is still fairly easy, but it's not as automatic as you make it out). Also, remember that (RAW) you need to demonstrate ability in various skills to join the sub-cult... Sure, not too hard, but again, most are simple farmers.

Ok, the warrior bands of Sartarites may have a nice bit of Flight - but, that's 3RP spent on flying that isn't being spent on something usually a LOT smarter - like Shield. And, even if you do have that many RPs, will you still have any left over for the Heal Wounds? Or a desperate Teleport or Spirit Block?

Meaning, I seriously doubt many Sartarites - even the warriors... and maybe even the Wind Lords... are going to spend the RPs on Flight for a battle.

So, yes - walls are very important!!!! (especially also since so few have access to it anyway! Broo, Scorpionmen, rampaging cattle...)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

they'd need to spend another POW to get into the Adventurous sub-cult (and, as you oddly ignored in the middle part of this quote) will take 2-3 POW, not simply 1.

I believe this is incorrect, since rune points of subcults are shared.  1 point to join the Barntar subcult and get whatever, 1 point to join Adventurous and get Fly.  If you are size 12 or less, good to go.  Otherwise spend one more POW for whatever useful Orlanth or Barntar spell you want, and you can fly.

 

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Who isn't going to do this? Honestly, most women - because of how often it'll get used, vs who else has it, vs what other spells would be more useful everyday

You still get two other useful every day spells.  Plus Bless Pregnancy.  Remember that the spell lasts ~9 months and cannot be recovered during that time, so relying on others is iffy.  Depends on what percent of women are pregnant at any time.

I agree with you that Flight in a battle might not be the best use of rune points.  And sometimes the threat is stronger than the execution.

Edited August 24 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I believe this is incorrect, since rune points of subcults are shared.  1 point to join the Barntar subcult and get whatever, 1 point to join Adventurous and get Fly. 

I agree with this. It’s one reason it was good that the Orlanth subcults were changed into requiring additional time and tithing for each, because otherwise there was no reason not to pick up multiple.

[Ali the Helering]

I should think that the distinction to be made here is that of regular worship and a personal act of devotion.  Your household gods are always there, but if you really want Vinga's attention for an act of vengeance (no matter how small) then Sanctify is in order....

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I believe this is incorrect, since rune points of subcults are shared.  1 point to join the Barntar subcult and get whatever, 1 point to join Adventurous and get Fly.  If you are size 12 or less, good to go.  Otherwise spend one more POW for whatever useful Orlanth or Barntar spell you want, and you can fly.

Apologies... the way I wrote it sounds clunky as I look at it again.

You are correct with the RPs being shared, but they do need to be accepted into the other sub-cult and sacrifice the POW to get that initiation - which, granted, is largely irrelevant... but as @Akhôrahil pointed out, that's a double tithing! And, yeah, you'd need to be slightly shorter than average to cast it on yourself. But, again, not the best choice of Rune Spell to be picking up for most farmers....

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

You still get two other useful every day spells.  Plus Bless Pregnancy.

??? Two? Bless Pregnancy is only 2RP... So, you'd only get one other spell, plus this. And, yeah, it ties up those RPs for most of the year, and so is unlikely to be learned by many, or cast often. Even on oneself - unless you're an important person. The question is - although in general it appears to be a good spell, and definitely useful - but is it necessary??? Sure, during the birthing process, any woman would want such a spell in place... but if there are medicines (alchemical concoctions) which can numb the pain, or other spells - Comfort Song is an obvious one (although only Chalana Arroy) or much more likely to be readily available - Birthing (from the Ernaldan sub-cult of Eninta the midwife) - 1 point, stops all pain, and "safe and painless pregnancy and birth of the baby". And, the RP is back the next week! It makes much more sense to pay 20L (if necessary!) to pay the midwife to cast her Birthing for when it really matters (and, for which she'll be there anyway!), than pay for a spell that's rarely used and takes up a valuable resource that's not going to be recovered very soon.

[radmonger]

I think the Orlanthi mostly use Flight for the ritual duels between champions that precede, or sometimes substitute for, a battle. So learning that spell is statement that you expect to become such a champion.

This is a thing a lot of young men, and some young women, will aspire to, despite them likely having a life expectancy comparable to a WWI fighter pilot. But I think, actual hard rules aside, there would be a lot of social pressure and expectations to be able to prove yourself worthy of such a role beforehand. So it would rarely be earlier than the 10th spell to be gained.

Another way of looking at it is that presumably a given size temple, with a given number of attending Rune Priests organizing a given number of worship ceremonies can only hand out a some fixed number of Rune Spells per season. And that number is not big enough for everyone to get everything they might want. PCs have a way of finding themselves at the head of the queue, by doing heroic services for the temple, or perhaps just paying hard silver. Those without those resources will generally get what they are given, as and when it is made available.

In most Sartarite rural clans, the local temple is to Orlanth Thunderous; Barntar is much rarer. The most common access to Orlanth Adventurous is at a tribal temple, or by joining a tribal or mercenary warband.

Routinely attending services at both a clan and tribal temple does require double tithing. Most, but not all, people dedicate themselves to one or the other. Those whose focus is tribal likely still attend the local clan ceremonies. But, like associates, without tithing they can only regain magic by doing so, not learn new spells.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24 by radmonger

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, yeah, it ties up those RPs for most of the year, and so is unlikely to be learned by many, or cast often. Even on oneself - unless you're an important person

Here's where we disagree.  Women and their children died often during historical childbirth.  I would think that every pregnant woman would want to be protected by Bless Pregnancy.  Reserving it for the "important"?  Well, that's not my view of Ernaldan.  YGMV.

[Shiningbrow]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Women and their children died often during historical childbirth.

But, that's why the Midwife sub-cult has the Birthing Rune spell.

You don't need to have the magic for all of the pregnancy - only for when it really matters.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

54 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, that's why the Midwife sub-cult has the Birthing Rune spell.

You don't need to have the magic for all of the pregnancy - only for when it really matters.

My thoughts on Ernalda were developed before the new Earth Cults book was published and that spell was added.  Having read that spell, I'd say that, instead of Bless Pregnancy, many Ernaldans would learn Birthing.  Though, for a mere one extra POW, Bless Pregnancy does have some benefits.

Speaking of sub cults...

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Orlanth subcults were changed into requiring additional time and tithing for each

where is this change?  A search on "tith" in the Lighbringers book was fruitless.

[Akhôrahil]

58 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

where is this change?  A search on "tith" in the Lighbringers book was fruitless.

Page 26: "If both subcults are joined, initiates must give 20% of their income to their temples and twelve weeks of their time."

It does seem like it's just OA/OT that this applies to, not any other subcults. Which might be regarded as a little odd - this seems as though it should be the standard system - but that's how it is.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Page 26: "If both subcults are joined, initiates must give 20% of their income to their temples and twelve weeks of their time."

It does seem like it's just OA/OT that this applies to, not any other subcults. Which might be regarded as a little odd - this seems as though it should be the standard system - but that's how it is.

Thanks for the reference.  I appreciate that the designers want to limit abuse of joining multiple sub-cults, but this is a poor fix.  Specific to only two subcults.  In an obscure section of the rules that many will miss.  And many groups ignore or handwave the time and tithing requirements anyway.

Fortunately, my PC is in Vinga and Orlanth Thunderous, so the extra tithing does not apply to her!  🙂

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My thoughts on Ernalda were developed before the new Earth Cults book was published and that spell was added.  Having read that spell, I'd say that, instead of Bless Pregnancy, many Ernaldans would learn Birthing.  Though, for a mere one extra POW, Bless Pregnancy does have some benefits.

Most definitely Fairy Floss.... (Fairy Nuff's sister).

I didn't know about it either until I saw it there (although, it is also in RBoM).

However, I think it is a mis-characterisation of "for a mere one extra POW"... to get the spell, yes. But to cast the spell... it's the difference between having those 2 RPs tied up for a number of seasons, vs only 1 RP for (at most) a few days/1 week.

 

Although YGV, I'd still say that Bless Pregnancy would be typically reserved for important people in the clan, and stacked for the extra Characteristic points. (for that matter, I can see it being a holy relic enchantment (maybe as part of a big festival or tournament, such as that in Garhound)... or cast by a Wyter on important days - such as in Sacred Time, or just after Ernalda's HHG (Fertility Week, Earth Season... and probably on Clayday just to make sure :p)

 

14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It does seem like it's just OA/OT that this applies to, not any other subcults. Which might be regarded as a little odd - this seems as though it should be the standard system - but that's how it is.

Maybe it was just that most player would go Orlanth, and this was a likely choice -and somehow overlooked for other cults??

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:36 AM, Shiningbrow said:

 

On 9/16/2023 at 9:40 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the majority of Sartarite men are initiates of  Orlanth. If I follow your way, it would mean that all battles against Sartarite should be on air:

No. The majority of Sartarite men are Initiates of Barntar - an aspect (now) of Orlanth. So, they don't get easy access to Flight. (it is still fairly easy, but it's not as automatic as you make it out). Also, remember that (RAW) you need to demonstrate ability in various skills to join the sub-cult... Sure, not too hard, but again, most are simple farmers.

two points sir : yes they are initiates of Orlanth, we have the figure of that. But I agree with you for the rest, they are more Barntar than Adventurous for sure 🙂.

Note that I used a very very big key word: "IF".

In my opinion, the rules are too "easy" to simulate the world (I understand why, if you need 90% in two skills to become just initiate, no one irl  will play the rule)

In my opinion learning a secret (rune spell, sub cult, etc...) should be a demonstration of a lot of abilities, devotion to the god, loyalty to the community, rune affinity. This point may solve a lot of the world issue (people are mostly farmers, who sometimes fight, not mostly fighters who sometimes farm) but will add so many restriction that the play, the fun, will be critically damaged.

A better model (simulation, not fun) would be that any spell requires a % in some runes to be "learned".

For example flight could be air 70%, move 90%. Then those who can fly like the gods are rare and holy people. Children seeing them will have stars in their eyes, they will dream that, once adults, they will join these exceptional guy who walk among the clouds. And of course, tomorrow, they will have to help, harvesting, washing, etc..

But again, that will not be fun to play (at least for a large part of the players) because too many restrictions. There was a previous model, that offer a better simulation in my opinion : initiate had only one use spells. But who, now, wants to go back to this time ?

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

an other post, for another topic. I m not experienced on battle (and I hope I will never have to) but flight is for me more more important than what some seems to say 🙂

 

Watch any movie on medieval / medfan /antic battle in a fortress. What we have : a lot of locations where people fight. Those on wall North, Those on wall East, Those near the dungeon, etc...

And then, the guards who protect the main door are in difficulty. But your group is far from them.

- You must go down the stairs (arg a troop of dwarves in going up to attack the orks behind you, blocking your way),

          a) you dodge and try to continue (50% -10min, 50% -20minutes)

          b) you jump (30% you broke your leg, I told you, jumping 10 meters in a heavy armor is a bad idea; 65% you need 1 minute to recover your sense, 5% hey are you Aragorn ?)

- then apologize to Legolas, as you are blocking his arrows (he will lose his competition !) , (if Legolas does a fumble, -2d6 in your leg, -5 min)

- avoid the burning hay wagon. (-2 minutes)

- fight the two uruk-hai  (-2 minutes, 30% you're dead)

- accept Gimli's insult as you killed "his" uruk-hai... you know ? the competition ... (test your passions, after all, Gimli is really in a bad mood today, if you lose, you waste 5 minutes)

- then arrive where you want...

 

or just fly, in the night  you just have 5% that someone notice you. Then get surprise effect or a good position (or any idea) to help the guard. And with enough extension, you have the advantage to be where you want faster than anyone, during all the battle

 

or you are in the top of the tower, the big boss is better than you, it is clear, you are both wounded, one last hit and its good but it is clear you will be hit the first... then jump, go back and taunt the boss(stay in the air) and... with the surprise effect, you have the time to throw your dagger

 

sorry for my poor words, but I think you see the point

 

teleport is "one use" in a battle. mobility helps but only the speed, not the encounters. Fly allows you to go quikly everywhere , for a time. You can change your way as the situation changes, etc..

moving in 3D when your opponent is only on 2D is  a big advantage

 

[Shiningbrow]

On 8/27/2024 at 4:33 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

an other post, for another topic. I m not experienced on battle (and I hope I will never have to) but flight is for me more more important than what some seems to say 🙂

 

Watch any movie on medieval / medfan /antic battle in a fortress. What we have : a lot of locations where people fight. Those on wall North, Those on wall East, Those near the dungeon, etc...

And then, the guards who protect the main door are in difficulty. But your group is far from them.

- You must go down the stairs (arg a troop of dwarves in going up to attack the orks behind you, blocking your way),

          a) you dodge and try to continue (50% -10min, 50% -20minutes)

          b) you jump (30% you broke your leg, I told you, jumping 10 meters in a heavy armor is a bad idea; 65% you need 1 minute to recover your sense, 5% hey are you Aragorn ?)

- then apologize to Legolas, as you are blocking his arrows (he will lose his competition !) , (if Legolas does a fumble, -2d6 in your leg, -5 min)

- avoid the burning hay wagon. (-2 minutes)

- fight the two uruk-hai  (-2 minutes, 30% you're dead)

- accept Gimli's insult as you killed "his" uruk-hai... you know ? the competition ... (test your passions, after all, Gimli is really in a bad mood today, if you lose, you waste 5 minutes)

- then arrive where you want...

 

or just fly, in the night  you just have 5% that someone notice you. Then get surprise effect or a good position (or any idea) to help the guard. And with enough extension, you have the advantage to be where you want faster than anyone, during all the battle

 

or you are in the top of the tower, the big boss is better than you, it is clear, you are both wounded, one last hit and its good but it is clear you will be hit the first... then jump, go back and taunt the boss(stay in the air) and... with the surprise effect, you have the time to throw your dagger

 

sorry for my poor words, but I think you see the point

 

teleport is "one use" in a battle. mobility helps but only the speed, not the encounters. Fly allows you to go quikly everywhere , for a time. You can change your way as the situation changes, etc..

moving in 3D when your opponent is only on 2D is  a big advantage

 

True - but....

It only takes a quick Dismiss Magic to make you hurt - a LOT... (at least with Shield, there's the Countermagic aspect of it - and it doesn't hurt so much when it goes down).

Sure - Flight is great in a battle... I'm just suggesting that it's generally not as good as the Shield (for the same number of RPs).

[Shiningbrow]

On 8/27/2024 at 4:01 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

(I understand why, if you need 90% in two skills to become just initiate, no one irl  will play the rule)

The book says demonstrate "proficiency"... 90% is mastery. "Proficiency" should only be 50% (or even down to 25%).

 

Having a Rune at a certain percentage before you could get the spell would become almost meaningless, since most aren't likely to bother getting the spell unless they have a reasonable chance to cast it. For the most part, that would be a minimum of 70%.... and, at 90% you run the risk of being a GM pawn...

However, having a high Loyalty or similar would make sense! (Devotion, even more so!!)

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/23/2024 at 3:48 AM, Jens said:

Take a look at temple sizes on page 284 of the core rules. Even a shrine (smallest size that lets you replenish rune points) needs 75-225 lay members and initiates.

But it doesn't say all 75 must show up at the sane time.  They just have to be regular worshippers.  That is ambiguous. plenty of room fir our Glorsnthas to vary.  My own unofficial interpretations are:

a) To found a shrine you do need all 75 to show up.  Unless it's a god touched place, like Larnste's Table, where the residuum of Larnste's lunch crumbs is effective. and a good story that pleases the GM is enough that you can do it with ten.

b) To keep it magically powerful you just need 75 to show up some time in the season.... or maybe the year, YGMV.

c) The instructions for a spirit cult say ten worshippers is enough If I Recall Correctly. See Cacodemon in Griffin Mountain, you can supplement with human sacrifices especially if you want to be rewarded with a chaotic feature.

 

 

 

Edited August 28 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sure - Flight is great in a battle... I'm just suggesting that it's generally not as good as the Shield (for the same number of RPs).

Agreed.

However, I strongly think that Flight is much much more useful in day to day living than many here give credit.  Not to mention the awesome fun factor.