Pegasus plateau and adultery

[Brootse]

Does it count as adultery if a married Wind Games contest winner, who worships one of Ernalda's Husband Gods, has sex with one of the priestesses? Or are they just re-enacting holy rites, so it doesn't violate divine oaths?

[Joerg]

Participants in holy rites may claim exemption from marriage vows, although high honor stats might take a minor hit if there is more debauchery than religious practice involved. Adultery with initiates or rune levels of Eurmal, Uleria, Yinkin or Orlanth Niskis can be regarded as holy re-enactment, too, but that's a thinner excuse, especially away from sanctified ground.

Day marriages undergone with sufficient ritual oomph might turn what would otherwise be adultery into legitimized polyandry/polygyny, too - always depending on the level of exclusivity in the marriage vows.

Another passion that might take a hit is "love <marriage partner>" or "love <family>". On the other hand, passions like "sensual" or "promiscuous" might be created or reinforced.

There might be in-laws willing to sue participants from stricter forms of marriage, and some might be powerful enough to even take on a major temple like Three Emeralds.

In the end, this is a matter of player-buy in and circumstances, and/or GM nastiness. Especially when failure to participate might affect Devotion passions.

[Zit]

is the marriage in Gloranthan cultures always related to sexuality ? It is the case in our world because marriage used to be (and sitll is) a way to found a family cell and to insure heritage. Fidelity was therefore required. Like often, a social necessity became a moral rule and a religious one. And even so, marriage is not always related to religious rules or morality. I've even read that until the 12th century, there were more civil than religious marriage in Europe, not to speak about the numerous acknowledged illegitimate children of Kings and other high nobles.

So what about Glorantha ?

[Nick Brooke]

Tell your wife that it was a religious obligation and didn’t mean anything to you. See how that works out.

[ZedAlpha]

i mean, depending on your spouse, they might be fine or even encouraging of it, especially if your spouse is the one reminding you of your religious obligation in the first place. Even in a monogamous-dominant society, people have never all been monogamous, whether or not their society (or religion, or both) would approve of it.

Hell, Gloranthan societies and Orlanthi society in particular seems to offer more opportunities for open relationships to be societally sanctioned than you might think.

[Zit]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Tell your wife (...)

Why do you say that ? Sorry, but I think this is a bit uncalled-for.

You can live as an exclusive couple without being married. Polygamy is a way to accept and officialize infidelity. Some couples like to share their sexuality. Exclusive monogamy is therefore neither universal nor absolutely related to marriage. And it makes completely sense to imagine that in a fantasy world, things went a different ways than IRL.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Zit

[Nick Brooke]

Sorry if I hit a sore spot. As you surely know, what’s socially acceptable, and what you personally think is acceptable behaviour (for you), and what your partner thinks is acceptable behaviour (for you), are hardly ever going to be three overlapping circles: they’re a Venn diagram. And the non-overlapping bits are where drama happens, and the games we play are all about dramatic events.

That said, I am genuinely glad that you have found space to enjoy your fantasies in our shared world. I feel the same way about the excellent The Six Paths supplement on the JC: it’s not my / my players’ cup of tea, it’s dealing with subject matter we tend not to worry about, but I’m delighted it exists for people to whom it matters.

And if it matters to you that all Gloranthans are happily polyamorous, then I’m sure they are, and jealousy need never rear its ugly head in your game. So what if your husband is fucking goddesses all the time? He always comes home to you.

[ZedAlpha]

Are you okay, @Nick Brooke? I might be being oversensitive and a tad paranoid, but something about how you're writing here makes it seem like this whole subject kinda struck a nerve.

[ZedAlpha]

And for the record, i was also mostly thinking less modern-day polyamory and more like...ritual prostitution and other random-people-having-sex-with-gods-style-rites and myths in the ancient world. The one that comes to mind is the scandal caused by Gilgamesh refusing to join Ishtar's bed.

 

EDIT: That all being said, I could absolutely see a fun plot rearing its head for more community-oriented games where the PCs have to deal with the fallout from a messy divorce in their clan resulting from someone having to participate in a rite that their spouse really didn't like. The PCs would have to mediate between different factions in the clan who support the spouses (who probably didn't have that good of a marriage to begin with), and the ones who are messily trying to mediate already are probably just making things worse by focusing on the religious obligation instead of the actual emotions of the people involved.

Fun soap-opera style plot.

Edited September 3, 2023 by ZedAlpha

[Nick Brooke]

I’m fine, thanks. Someone thought my roleplay-enabling answer to a question was “off-topic,“ and I thought they deserved a longer answer. Perhaps I was wrong.

People bringing their personal fantasies into Glorantha is not new. Greg used to say that Gloranthan drugs were vastly better than RW drugs: that mattered to him. (Some folk have exciting fantasies about authentic Bronze Age genocide: apparently that matters to them). I’m cool with all of that (mostly; I draw the line at the casual use of eliminationist language), because it doesn’t all have to matter to me.

YGWV, remember.

[Zit]

I was only reminding that mentions of private life and life partners shall be avoided on this Glorantha forum. My wife is definitely off-toppic. And no need here to invoke any fantasy of other members or whatsoever. Let's speak about Glorantha only. I may be exagerately sensitive on my privacy but also know that there was no intention from Nick to offend. So let's close this digression and go back to the toppic.

 

There are several scenarios with ritual wedding, so it looks like it is something "normal" and socialy accepted among Thelayans. I guess that some HQ would also involve this kind of episodes (the Red Cow HQ fo instance).

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Zit

[Nick Brooke]

If you thought I was talking about your IRL wife, and not about the wife of the adventurer with an arguably blasé attitude to marital vows from our bleating friend's OP, then I am sorry to have confused you. In fairness, it was late at night.

If your married adventurer thinks it's OK to have sex with goddesses, priestesses, etc. whenever opportunity presents itself, maybe your GM can consider whether that adventurer's fictional wife and her kin are on the same page, or whether there is opportunity for mischief. Because in my experience, good GMs like to make mischief.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

...

If your married adventurer thinks it's OK to have sex with goddesses, priestesses, etc. whenever opportunity presents itself, maybe your GM can consider whether that adventurer's fictional wife and her kin are on the same page, or whether there is opportunity for mischief. Because in my experience, good GMs like to make mischief.

Given the realities of Glorantha, I suspect that Holy Day rituals (and sexual encounters that are myth-relevant and/or part of adventuring) will often be specifically cited in marriage contracts.

[Nick Brooke]

And what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...

[g33k]

28 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

And what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...

Of course!

[Nick Brooke]

Quote

The third wife of Kerin seemed every night to bother herself, and in consequence her husband, about a great many incomprehensible matters.

Now of the origin of Saraïde nothing can here be told with profit and decorum: here it is enough to say that an ambiguous parentage had provided this Saraïde with a talisman by which you might know the truth when truth was found. And one of the many things about Kerin’s wife which Kerin could not quite understand, was her constant complaining that she had not found out assuredly the truth about anything, and, in particular, the truth as to Saraïde.

“I exist,” she would observe to her husband, “and I am in the main as other women. Therefore, this Saraïde is very certainly a natural phenomenon. And in nature everything appears to be intended for this, that or the other purpose. Indeed, after howsoever hasty consideration of the young woman known as Saraïde, one inevitably deduces that so much of loveliness and wit and aspiration, of color and perfume and tenderness, was not put together haphazardly; and that the compound was painstakingly designed to serve some purpose or another purpose. It is about that purpose I want knowledge.”

And Kerin would reply, “As you like, my dear.”

So this young Saraïde, whom many called a witch, had sought, night after night, for the desired knowledge, in widely various surroundings, from the clergy, from men of business, from poets, and from fiends; and had wakened in her talisman every color save only that golden shining which would proclaim her capture of the truth. This clear soft yellow ray, as she explained to Kerin, would have to be evoked, if ever, in the night season, because by day its radiance might pass unnoticed and her perception of the truth be lost.

Kerin could understand the common-sense of this, at any rate. And so young Saraïde was unfailingly heartened in all such nocturnal experiments by the encouragement of her fond husband.

“And do not be discouraged, wife,” he would exhort her, as he was now exhorting upon this fine spring evening, “for women and their belongings are, beyond doubt, of some use or another, which by and by will be discovered. Meanwhile, my darling, what were you saying there is for supper? For that at least is a matter of real importance—”

But Saraïde said only, in that quick, inconsequential childish way of hers, “O Kerin of my heart, I do so want to know the truth about this, and about all other matters!”

(Everybody: read more books by James Branch Cabell! You can thank me later.)

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:30 PM, Brootse said:

Does it count as adultery if a married Wind Games contest winner, who worships one of Ernalda's Husband Gods, has sex with one of the priestesses? Or are they just re-enacting holy rites, so it doesn't violate divine oaths?

for me it depends a lot of the context

 

if it is a ritual, it is not adultery: if (priest of ) Orlanth and (priestess of) Ernalda have sex during a religious ceremony, there is nothing because they are not themselves but the gods.

if it is not during a ritual, it is adultery*: if the same priest of Orlanth and the same priestess of Ernalda have sex just because they want to have pleasure, there is aldutery (of course if they are not married)

 

By the way if you visit the Uleria temple (or Uleria wanderers), it is considered as a ritual (sun county supplement, at least french version)

 

* I follow the definition of cambridge dictionary https://dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/dictionnaire/anglais/adultery

 

 

however in this definition, there is no mention of morale, oath breaking  or anything bad. Again it will depend on the context, the culture, the type of marriage, the oath between the couple.

I imagine (but no reference) that is not alowed for a Yelm/Yelmalio/any noble light god (aka not Lodril)/ worshipper's spouse to see elsewhere. And it may depend on the male god (Yelm has concubines, Yelmalio seems "cursed" as usual and be monogamous :p)

I remember in an official book (supplement about sartarite clan, probably HQ, but not sure, and not sure if it is still canon or not) there was a comment about an ernlada npc who was sad to see her husband following so much the adventurous way of his god. So I consider:

- it is acceptable in sartarite context

- people may suffer of such behaviour

 

Of course if a couple for any reason (personal love or alliance negociation, or certain type of marriage, or source of magic, or ...) swear to never visit anyone else, adultery would become a Bab's topic (or other)

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Malin]

What is culturally and religiously accepted might still be personally painful for some.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yelmalio seems "cursed" as usual and be monogamous

hahaha it's just that Yelmalio is less Muharzam and more Dayzatar.

(Muharzam is now-Yelm; Dayzatar, like many other solar deities, including Ourania, was Yelm when it was still a title.)

[mfbrandi]

20 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yelmalio is less Muharzam and more Dayzatar. (Muharzam is now-Yelm; Dayzatar … was Yelm when it was still a title.)

  Dayzatar is above, fastidious: if there is a problem, remove yourself from it. No need to be tough, just distant and cautious. (Avoids death.)

  Yelm is above and below: sees everything from both sides — which has driven others mad — but perhaps now truly has a hold on justice. (Succumbs to death, but returns.)

  Yelmalio? Yelmalio is at ground level and walks with us. Yelmalio neither avoids nor succumbs, but walks right through all the dangers and temptations, loses much, but retains a certain purity or integrity. If a little uptight and prickly, I think we can forgive that. (Resists death.)

Yelmalio is interesting: he is not a towering illuminated god and not a rune owner; he is on a more human scale, suffers for us and is our light in the darkness, but conspicuously he does not die and return to save us. He is the anti-christ, anti-god, not part of the New World Order Cabal delivering the Compromise (he wouldn’t know how to compromise). He doesn’t quite stand with the gods, but even though he was our hope when everything was sliding into Hell, he is not one of us either, being foreign to death. He is the outsider’s outsider, always alone in a crowd — it is no wonder that ZZ loves him.°

[Not a statement of supposed Gloranthan orthodoxy. Your sun gods will vary.]

 

° The outsider’s outsider — Elmal in contrast is a worm: no longer having a place in the emperor’s court, he bows down to the storm king; anything to fit in, not to have to stand alone. Yelmalio is a good Kantian and a a good Smithian: his judgement and his sins are his own, they belong to him.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

he is on a more human scale, suffers for us and is our light in the darkness, but conspicuously he does not die and return to save us. ... He is the outsider’s outsider

Great analogy.  Here's another that fits your theme:

In one of my few talks with Greg directly about Glorantha, he told me that Yelmalions were the "Jews of Glorantha".  Made everything click for me.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

As for the original topic of "is it adultery?", YGMV. 

But I'm with @Nick Brooke  Jealousy is a big human emotion, and I don't see it just going away.

Also, to bring in good advice from @Andrew Logan Montgomery from another thread, one should bring their own background and myths to Glorantha.  As a fan of Greek mythology and traditional folk music, in the great myths people don't just ignore adultery.

• Agamemnon did not say "sure Helen, you can run off with Paris"
• Medea, well, let's just say you don't mess with Medea
• When Lord Bernard (or Donald, his name varies) comes home to find his wife in bed with Matty Groves, he doesn't say "That's o.k., it is a religious Holiday"
• Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere did not live happily ever.
• countless more...

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

• Agamemnon did not say “sure Helen, you can run off with Paris”
• Medea, well, let's just say you don't mess with Medea

I am not sure that the issue is adultery per se in either of these cases. More like abandonment … and possibly remarriage/bigamy.

It is not entirely clear how much agency Helen had in leaving Menelaus/Sparta for Paris/Troy — if you are promised as a prize by Aphrodite, presumably you will go, willingly or not, with good reason or none.

Jason doesn’t “cheat on” Medea, he casts her aside to marry a more Greek model — after all she has done for him! This is quite nice from Robin Mitchell-Boyask’s introduction to the Svarlien translation of Euripides:

• Jason is a shadow of a hero, with not the least whiff of the semidivinity of Achilles or Heracles. He has broken his oaths to Medea, and oaths are sworn to, and thus guaranteed by, the gods. Jason, who pursues magical objects through fantastical means, seems more like a hero from a folktale rather than high myth, the realm to which Medea belongs. The Achillean rage of Medea transforms her into something more transcendent, perhaps a form of Hera, the goddess of marriage

Mitchell-Boyask notes also that Euripides’ Medea placed last in the Dionysia of 431 BCE.

Edited September 7, 2023 by mfbrandi
fixed italics

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

It is not entirely clear how much agency Helen had in leaving Menelaus/Sparta for Paris/Troy — if you are promised as a prize by Aphrodite, presumably you will go, willingly or not, with good reason or none

That nicely supports my point from the other perspective - the Four Winds Ernaldans in Pegasus Plateau are promised as a prize by the gods.  Their real husbands might choose to pull an Agamemnon and do harm to the PCs who win the contests.

I agree with your point that it might be more the long term abandonment than  short term adultery.

[ZedAlpha]

For that matter, what would the Four Winds think of it? Just because you're sworn to a specific religious duty and will go along with it doesn't mean that you want to do it.