The GoG Mythology Book

[svensson]

Well, I've just gotten through reading the Mythology book.

Um, wow.

Frankly, I've had to read several sections a couple two-or-three times to make sure I understood the implications and how it all knits together.

Now, I'm a reasonably smart fellow and usually have little to no time for all the purveyors of 'madjickal' theory. I live in an area with a strong Wicca/pagan/New Age presence and with the exception of perhaps 8 people [who I respect immensely] I find most practitioners of 'madjick' of my acquaintance are categorically full of crap. I understand and accept that there are things that exist that we don't understand, but I've seen way too many magic rock cults come and go to buy into the Crowley-ist nonsense.

HOWEVER... the Mythology book presents a fictional mythos and magical world written by a practicing [and from every single source I hear] well trained shamanist. I never had the chance to meet Greg Stafford, much to my regret, but I sense that he would be among the magic practitioners that I could respect as a mystical scholar and that comes shining through in this book. There are several things that I *really* like about the Mythology book... the statements 'the God Learner Monomyth is both true and false' and 'the Monomyth isn't the only way to visualize Glorantha' leave lots of room for at-the-table ruling while still maintaining a cohesive narrative.

But make no mistake... this is NOT the Glorantha neophyte's reference. This book is for those of us who've been dancing around HeroQuesting for while now and are now, finally, getting enough answers about Glorantha's metaphysical world[s] that planning in-game epic HQs are now possible. Unless someone is really invested in Glorantha, they probably won't get a whole lot out of this book. If the Glorantha Sourcebook is Bachelor's in Glorantha Studies text, then Mythology is the Master's Degree document.

Last thing:

My corner of the world has been afflicted with a whole slew of cults. Antelope OR, where the Rajneeshis tried to take over a town, is less than 200 miles from my house. The Ramtha cult compound isn't 30 miles from where I sit right now. The Unification Moonies and LRons of Scientology have a significant presence here. 'Skeptical' doesn't even begin to cover my feelings about such organizations.

That being said, I also know Ashatrur [Odinist], Wiccan, and shamanist practitioners who I deeply respect as people [their character, sense of right and wrong, etc.] and for the theological choices they have made. They're not the ones I would have made, but that's fine. When I say 'Happy Holidays' to them, I mean it sincerely. NONE of my comments about alt-religions is aimed at any particular person. Just like with any other life-choice how you choose to address the divine in your life is none of my affair. I have friends who range from hard-core atheist to practicing Bahai'is. My personal beliefs are more mainstream than that [I'm an Episcopalian] and if you think I'm judgemental about Scientologists [and I most certainly am], you should hear me go off about the shenanigans of the evangelical fundamentalist wing of my Protestant beliefs...

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by svensson

[Russ Massey]

But is it of utility to a GM who just wants to run a game of RQ?

[svensson]

2 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

But is it of utility to a GM who just wants to run a game of RQ?

My suggestion is to get The Glorantha Sourcebook first and then look at the Proserpaedia and pantheon books. At that point then I'd decide whether or not to get Mythology.

And remember, you don't HAVE to use any of this stuff. You really do have 90% of everything you need in the Core Rules. Your Glorantha WILL vary... from mine, from Greg's or anybody else's.

 

[Russ Massey]

Thanks - I already have more or less everything in print. I guess what I was asking is whehter there is any game utility for Mythology before there are actual Heroquesting rules are released. I did feel that the Prosopaedia was of little use in GM terms.

[svensson]

13 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

Thanks - I already have more or less everything in print. I guess what I was asking is whehter there is any game utility for Mythology before there are actual Heroquesting rules are released. I did feel that the Prosopaedia was of little use in GM terms.

Other than understanding who the Gods are and who they're related to, the Proserpaedia can be pretty limited. It's useful for finding out who the specific Grain Goddesses or Thunder Brothers are as they are mentioned in passing. It's also useful if you're reading the forums and you hear all us old grognards grumping about the most useful Hunter god or why Humakt is hostile to Yanafal Tarnils and so on.

The Proserpaedia shallows the deep end of the pool, providing relationships and references to Godly actions and the goals of their cults. The Mythology book is more like the deep end of the pool coming off a diving board 😉

[Joerg]

The Monomyth is close enough to Arkat's understanding of the hero plane. Fairly basic knowledge you should have for running a heroquest before considering possible mechanics for heroquests, IMO, but then I am a Glorantha scholar first, and only then a GM and scenario writer.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

But make no mistake... this is NOT the Glorantha neophyte's reference. This book is for those of us who've been dancing around HeroQuesting for while now and are now, finally, getting enough answers about Glorantha's metaphysical world[s] that planning in-game epic HQs are now possible.

What we really need - and that doesn't seem to be ahead in the publication queue as of yet - are rules for heroes and heroquesting.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

What we really need - and that doesn't seem to be ahead in the publication queue as of yet - are rules for heroes and heroquesting.

The rules are pretty worthless without a framework of myths to quest in. The Monomyth is supposed to provide the scaffolding of Godtime, to branch off from. It resulted from Arkat#s cross-referencing his heroquesting experiences in multiple cults.

The only rulesy bits for heroquesting would be what portion of the standard array of RuneQuest abilities ports into heroquesting, and how to adjust and create heroquesting rewards and penalties. The rest is how to turn bits of the mythic landscape (or hypersurface) of Glorantha into adventures, and that requires some basic familiarty with archetypical myths and possibly variations thereof (like slaying a  blue dragon to release a mask of Heler).

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The rules are pretty worthless without a framework of myths to quest in. The Monomyth is supposed to provide the scaffolding of Godtime, to branch off from. It resulted from Arkat#s cross-referencing his heroquesting experiences in multiple cults.

The only rulesy bits for heroquesting would be what portion of the standard array of RuneQuest abilities ports into heroquesting, and how to adjust and create heroquesting rewards and penalties. The rest is how to turn bits of the mythic landscape (or hypersurface) of Glorantha into adventures, and that requires some basic familiarty with archetypical myths and possibly variations thereof (like slaying a  blue dragon to release a mask of Heler).

Well, yes - we need both. But we had a decent amount of myths already and heroquests in at least other games, but no actual RQ rules.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Well, yes - we need both. But we had a decent amount of myths already and heroquests in at least other games, but no actual RQ rules.

The old fart brigade may have had these myths, or may have created their own spin-off version of the Monomyth to play with. (And that spin-off thing is fine for a game table, as long as nobody claims that their version is what canon has to be.)

RQG is aiming to become a self-contained description of Glorantha (including a few rules-free collections of world descriptions like the Guide and the Sourcebook). As such, it has to deliver its own presentation of the Monomyth.

More than rules you need GMing tips and tricks to navigate myth, and for that an understanding what myth means is a prerequisite. And here the Mythology book delivers at the start.

So yes, we need a book on heroquesting, and how to use both the Monomyth and the specific cult write-ups to create regular heroquests following a passion play approach, or the deeper godtime dive of the similarly scripted quests, before we can ponder ways to veer off from such entry myths into other paths or into unknown territory without falling out of myth back into some (usually dismal) surface world or hell experience.

I sincerely hope that there won't be more than a handful of rulesy pages in such a product.

[Richard S.]

Personally I just run heroquests as normal adventures. I'm considering using the "MP doesn't regenerate and spells are permanent" idea, but it hasn't been a huge issue. All that's different from a real-world adventure is the framing and the possible consequences, which aren't things that I need definite rules for.

[Nell]

I have just barely not gotten to the Mythic Maps section, so my mind may very well change, but I was a little dissapointed by the monomyth, only because I thought it was a little bare. I was hoping for more, as well as God and cult relationship charts. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Nell

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

What we really need - and that doesn't seem to be ahead in the publication queue as of yet - are rules for heroes and heroquesting.

I think a more precise term is that we need 'frameworks' for HeroQuests.

HeroQuests transcend the BRP mechanics and, IMHO, should test the player's knowledge of the myths they're trying to recreate or interact with. Yeah, I freely admit I get that notion for the KODP game, but I honestly do think it's a good notion. That does not mean 'succeed at x check point and get y power in the mundane world', however.

But really, this is a whole separate topic /thread by itself.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Monomyth is close enough to Arkat's understanding of the hero plane. Fairly basic knowledge you should have for running a heroquest before considering possible mechanics for heroquests, IMO, but then I am a Glorantha scholar first, and only then a GM and scenario writer.

The Monomyth is the God Learner's study of Arkat's interactions with the Hero Plane. There's 300 years between the death /apotheosis of Arkat and the rise of Jrustela. In between, many sources [including Arkat's cult itself - what was left of it] tried to purge the world of HQ knowledge, finding it dangerous. All that being said, I think there are VERY good odds that the GL's got some important aspects of Heroquesting wrong and in that error lay the seed of their destruction.

[Brian Duguid]

14 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

But is it of utility to a GM who just wants to run a game of RQ?

Partly this depends on the extent to which your game tends towards the mythic. In a couple of recent sessions of mine, the adventurers travelled magically to Valind's Glacier and helped Valind defend against a hero-plane version of the Kalikos expedition, before Varchulanga herself showed up (mother of sea monsters). There is certainly material in Mythology which may influence how I run that sort of thing again.

At a prosaic level, the 16-page Universal Cult Format presents a clearer version of the basic "rules" for cults than is in the core rulebook. And the cult distribution charts may be helpful to a GM concerned about adherence to the game-world's canon.

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

But is it of utility to a GM who just wants to run a game of RQ?

It has some useful information that deepens the Roleplaying experience, but is not essential when running a game of RQ.

[kalidor]

We only need a few bits of how to make a heroquest. How to Cross, how to move, how to make contest and how to manage rewards, boons so they are in Sync with the deed. We already have those for shamans in the core book.

[Russ Massey]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

It has some useful information that deepens the Roleplaying experience, but is not essential when running a game of RQ.

That's what I expected. I'll leave off buying it until I need it more.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

It has some useful information that deepens the Roleplaying experience, but is not essential when running a game of RQ.

Personally, I view it as the opposite. It is an essential book to understanding the setting. It is the decoder ring to get the interplay between mortals and gods in Glorantha (which to me is THE defining feature of the setting). But to each their own.

[svensson]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Personally, I view it as the opposite. It is an essential book to understanding the setting. It is the decoder ring to get the interplay between mortals and gods in Glorantha (which to me is THE defining feature of the setting). But to each their own.

Building on that, there is a conceit among RQ players, even longtime grogs like myself, to treat cults as a source for powers but otherwise they are of no more consequence than a modern sports team jersey.

But I think a better way to observe RQ cults is to look at our modern societies and how deeply religious people try and live a sacred life in a secular world. Let's set aside everyone's knee-jerk retreat from the subject of religion and definitely set aside one's support or rejection of religion and consider how devout people live. Be they Orthodox Jews or Catholics [both faiths being highly organized and hierarchical] or believing fundamentalist Christians [whose approach is more individualistic], a devout life requires many of the same motifs... active interest in and engagement with worship, a certain level of scholarship in the faith, a distinct and clear moral code... This is the kind of thing a Gloranthan believes in their world. The Gods have a manifest proven existence completely separate of metaphor or allegory. Orlanth REALLY IS 'the air that you breathe', Yelm REALLY DOES bathe the land in his shining rays and allows crops to grow. A Gloranthan cultist's faith is central to their very being and reason for existence because the Gods are REAL and require the cultists' support as much as the cultist needs the God's support.

The Mythology book helps explain all that.

Membership in a cult isn't 'I became a Lanbril because I needed lockpicking skills' anymore, though back in RQ2 that was very much the case. Cult membership is part of your character's identity. Membership in multiple cults isn't all that common anymore, though it was back in RQ2, because the RQG rules are much more particular about meeting cult obligations. And that includes spelling out in clear detail what failing in your cult obligations means to a PC.

Edited October 14, 2023 by svensson

[Rodney Dangerduck]

28 minutes ago, svensson said:

Membership in multiple cults isn't all that common anymore

Are there any statistics to support this?  And what is the intent of the game designers?

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'm wondering how things are in other playing groups, and how they are "supposed to be".  In my limited and anecdotal experience, initiation into multiple cults is  more common in RQG (roughly 1/3 of our current PCs) than back in RQ2 days, where, in our group, it was rare.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Richard S.]

12 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Are there any statistics to support this?  And what is the intent of the game designers?

Jeff's mentioned a few times that dual initiates are pretty rare, possibly just a rounding error.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/mythology-book-coming-october/

[Austin]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:50 AM, svensson said:

But make no mistake... this is NOT the Glorantha neophyte's reference. ... Unless someone is really invested in Glorantha, they probably won't get a whole lot out of this book. If the Glorantha Sourcebook is Bachelor's in Glorantha Studies text, then Mythology is the Master's Degree document.

I'd broadly agree. Finished my first read today, and I've read the shorter sections at least twice. Wouldn't say I'm an "old hand" to Glorantha, but I have had a shitton of exposure, esp. since the Jonstown Compendium began. And I still feel like I'm trying to make heads and tails of the book.

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

It has some useful information that deepens the Roleplaying experience, but is not essential when running a game of RQ.

I'd also broadly agree with this.

I'm pretty sure I like Mythology, but I also have no idea what the hell to do with it. It feels very much like the target audience is "Glorantha scholars," not "RuneQuest players." Which I mean, I'm in both camps, so that's not really a bad thing. One of the things on my do-list is to go back through Lightbringers and try seeing how its general statement + cult writeups cohere with the four "Reconciliations" subsections (I believe that was in the "Understanding Mythology" chapter?).

I kind of think we're supposed to use the Mythic Maps to position heroquests using the Otherworld Home of a god, then the Mythos or the Monomyth to grab a story which players are trying to reach from that Otherworld Home? But this feels like I'm trying to just use the God Time as an "RPG campaign setting book" like Odyssey of the Dragonlords or Reach of the Roach God. Which I wouldn't call "bad" or "wrong" in any way - but I don't think that's the Mythology book's intent or purpose based on its discussion of the sacred and persistent denunciation of modern life on Earth.

I don't think I've been this puzzled by a book since I read Being and Nothingness, or perhaps the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Which I think is a compliment to Mythology?  I'm not puzzled often, and I do generally enjoy being confused. In particular, I think I'm confused because of a mix of complexity and Glorantha's ongoing vagueness. It's not the "handwavium" or "stage magician" species of confusion.

[svensson]

@Crel Oh, I LOVE the Mythology book. The artwork by itself is magnificent and the text is worth the read.

I just don't think a new Gloranthan should go from the Core Rules to the Mythology book straight away, that's all. I think that the Glorantha Sourcebook is a good and perhaps necessary intermediate step.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

...

I don't think I've been this puzzled by a book since I read Being and Nothingness, or perhaps the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Which I think is a compliment to Mythology?  I'm not puzzled often, and I do generally enjoy being confused. In particular, I think I'm confused because of a mix of complexity and Glorantha's ongoing vagueness. It's not the "handwavium" or "stage magician" species of confusion.

When you come right down to it, this strikes me as kind of an amazing review & endorsement of the book.