Arkat, Nysalor and Gbaji

[bronze]

Has Nysalor always been Gbaji, or cursed to be Gbaji by Arkat? Are both Arkat and Nysalor Gbaji? Neither? Is Gbaji a disparate entity from its host, or they are inseparable? Is Gabji objectively real, or is it a product of conflicting interpretation? It is really confusing, and it seems as if every scholar harbours their own theories and interpretations on the subject. 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by bronze

[Rob Darvall]

It's really confusing because the answer is yes (or perhaps no, or even both).

It's easier to comprehend (not understand, that's different) if you get what Nick and others are saying in your Western Myth question.

All these things are both true and false at the same time. No-one knows who won the final confrontation between Arkat and Nysalor/Gbaji because what came out was essentially all of them. They all looked into the void and became the void so which body walked out was irrelevant. Whether that is hopeful or dismaying depends on your Gloranthan viewpoint.

You find similar ideas in Odayla's pursuit of the Star Bear and Andrew Logan Montgomery's interpretation of the Fighting Pit in Orlanthi initiation. Your opponent is you/your shadow self etc.

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

... All these things are both true and false at the same time. No-one knows who won the final confrontation between Arkat and Nysalor/Gbaji because what came out was essentially all of them. They all looked into the void and became the void so which body walked out was irrelevant...

Yes, this.

But also:  maybe instead there really was one singular victor to emerge... but if so, it is objectively impossible to be sure which one.

One great and terrible Schrödinger's box that we still haven't opened.

[bronze]

29 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yes, this.

But also:  maybe instead there really was one singular victor to emerge... but if so, it is objectively impossible to be sure which one.

One great and terrible Schrödinger's box that we still haven't opened.

Yes, that is legitimately terrifying...

Edited October 21, 2023 by bronze

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

Has Nysalor always been Gbaji, or cursed to be Gbaji by Arkat? Are both Arkat and Nysalor Gbaji? Neither? Is Gbaji a disparate entity from its host, or they are inseparable? Is Gabji objectively real, or is it a product of conflicting interpretation?

1) no, and yes

2) yes, and no

3) yes, and no

4) no, and yes

5) yes, but likely no

6) no and yes

7) yes, and no

😉 

[Rob Darvall]

8 minutes ago, g33k said:

...

But also:  maybe instead there really was one singular victor to emerge... but if so, it is objectively impossible to be sure which one.

...

Which is, of course, terrifying; regardless of which being is the singular winner.

[Zac]

3 hours ago, bronze said:

Has Nysalor always been Gbaji, or cursed to be Gbaji by Arkat?

I suspect that depends on your perception of Nysalor. The Pelorians would say that he was a "great friend" and their memories of those times are good. It also depends on whether you believe Arkat and don't think that he was the Deceiver to begin with. 

 

3 hours ago, bronze said:

Are both Arkat and Nysalor Gbaji?

It depends on your perspective. Arkat became known as Gbaji at the end of the wars and was also seen to be a "deceiver" by many who followed him and then left after he changed cults or species. 

 

3 hours ago, bronze said:

Is Gbaji a disparate entity from its host, or they are inseparable?

I think it is a label that one side uses to tarnish the other

3 hours ago, bronze said:

It is really confusing, and it seems as if every scholar harbours their own theories and interpretations on the subject. 

Glorantha abounds with writing that is from a particular perspective and opposes material written elsewhere. The Arkat/Nysalor debate is the best example of that and it speaks to, I guess, a deep fascination that Greg had with myth being one form of propaganda.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Zac

[Zac]

20 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

All these things are both true and false at the same time. No-one knows who won the final confrontation between Arkat and Nysalor/Gbaji because what came out was essentially all of them.

Or none of them. 

[EricW]

Nysalor / Gbaji was both a wise councillor and a source of corruption all at the same time. 

Consider Arkat: Was Arkat acting corruptly or with nobility when he violated his oaths to the gods, switched cults, and betrayed his followers and friends, in his ruthless pursuit of power to defeat Gbaji?

It's not enough to say if Arkat hadn't done this, the world might have fallen - he broke sacred oaths, and violated the trust others had placed in him, yet at the same time Arkat upheld that trust and destroyed the empire of light.

In the same way, illuminates can violate oaths and even take on chaos features, and tell themselves they are acting for a higher purpose. But if they abuse their illumination, their actions are still corrupt, even if they fulfil their mission and use the powers granted by that corruption to overcome other corruption. 

 

 

[Joerg]

Whenever Arkat looked at Nysalor, he perceived Gbaji. And that was Truth and correct.

Whenever Nysalor looked at Arkat, he perceived Gbaji. And that was Truth and correct.

Ralzakark has three shapes in the Guide - a unicorn-headed broo, a scorpion-armed broo, and a human shape that is just the front surface of a human. IMG this latter shape is a reflection of the nature of Gbaji.

Thus, there always were three of them - Nysalor, his shadow Arkat, and the Deceiver between them, separating the two halves of the Perfect Being.

[Snugz]

This is the way I play the Arkat thing, which is inspired by the canonical writings but necessarily fills in gaps/[re]interprets that.

"Where the rubber meets the road" for me is the issue of what is the relationship between two "masks" of Arkat (out of the seven main ones; e.g. see Alangellia pic in Guide), Destroyer and Deceiver. This is where the line gets blurry.   (in addition, but less interestingly, to other "sub-masks"/splinter factions like Black Arkat and Arkat Kingtroll that might fit somewhere between Chaosbane/Destroyer... loosely. Or who the heck knows if "Arkat the Martyr" [see: World of Losers Movement] is "real".)

I think many Arkati would agree that Destroyer was something like Arkat using Zorak Zoran's Disorder power to defeat Gbaji, but that Arkat Deceiver is a mask of Gbaji and one could even say that the two masks fought each other (Arkat vs. Arkat). A cautionary tale, that a reckless Arkati might slip from their adherence to the Destroyer into the Deceiver. (but other masks could go that way too) Whether there is a distinction between Arkat Deceiver/"Chaosmonster" and Gbaji himself would be of some debate, then?

So perhaps of all the Arkati, those of the Destroyer mask are most liable to slide from Disorder into Chaos, even being able (via bending their own mystic philosophy cough Illumination) to justify using Chaos to their ends (e.g. see how Arkat used Chaos things to seal away pieces of Gbaji after the Tower of Dreams battle). And outsiders easily could be of the view that there is no important difference between Destroyer and Deceiver; they are both bad for everyone else, cannot be trusted, and are best purged from society whenever/however possible.

So Arkat gets a bad rap; beyond some people in some places like Ralios. Added to that, plenty of Westerners would lump some/all other masks as "Arkat the Traitor", for their own reasons (e.g. Liberator became Saviour, a betrayal of the former's values).

Edited October 21, 2023 by Snugz

[Snugz]

As an aside, here's what an Arkati mentor told his "student" IMG; a distillation of history (but as always, filtered through his own perception):

“You have heard the stories. Arkat is returning to Ralios in at least five of his masks, and the Seshnelans rally to crush this. They have the advantage that the Arkati sects can be paralysed by their own scheming against and even murdering each other. Some believe there is but one True Arkat; brought about by a Grand Conjunction; others just revere one mask. But you may not know the whole tale of Arkat and his masks, or shadows. Here is that tale, in brief. Everyone agrees on the first parts, but as the story of his life proceeds, so does controversy increase. Maybe Arkat’s heroquesting gradually created more of himself co-existing.”

“He was born in Brithos in 375 during the Sunstop, and fostered by Aldryami. Around then, he became mystically Illuminated. He was raised in Brithos as a Horali, joined the Army of Law, and freed Arolanit from Tanisor. This is where his heroic stature became evident; and he was wielding the Unbreakable Sword or God Cleaver by now. He began a crusade against the being he always called Gbaji, and many call Arkat at this time the Saviour. He fought Gbaji’s agents across the West. He then became a Hrestoli; in Brithos’s eyes an act of betrayal; and most agree that this is when he became Arkat the Liberator or the Knight. He slew the Vampire Kings, and razed their city of Tanewal, now called the Red Ruins. But he was killed by Palangio, leader of Gbaji’s forces, in 418. All thought him lost then, but Harmast brought him back in 422 at Hrelar Amali, the holiest site in Glorantha; a site of Life and Fertility. But Arkat grew full of Death. He became Humaktson or Humarkat; a Sword of Humath or Humakt; and turned further eastwards against the Telmori of Ralios, who were Chaos-tainted by Gbaji. He earned the name Chaosbane. But he could not penetrate into Dorastor to face Gbaji yet. Instead, he moved further south and then east to aiding Slontos, then Dragon Pass. There he started his connection with Darkness, and many there call him Black Arkat. Arkat continued his fight north to Dorastor. But the fight was fierce, so he sought more power. He heroquested and became a Mistress Race troll; an Uzuz; in 448. Some named him Kingtroll then. But he eventually turned to worship Zorak Zoran, and raged across Dorastor as Arkat the Destroyer. In 450, he finally met Gbaji in single combat atop the Tower of Dreams in the City of Miracles. Arkat killed Gbaji. Some instead say that it was the other way around, that Gbaji persisted as Arkat the Deceiver or Arkat Chaosmonster or Arkat the Devil. But Dorastor was devastated nonetheless. Here the First Age of Glorantha ended and the Time of Empire began. Arkat, perhaps no longer a troll, returned to rule Ralios, forming the Dark Empire or the Autarchy, which he called the Empire of Peace. For this, many call him Great Arkat. He made a great fortress-capital called Arkhome, and then retired in Ralios, having brought peace there and to the Elder Races around it. So his final title may be Arkat Peacemaker. There are many more titles or interpretations of Arkat; some combine them, or separate them. Some even claim that the flagellant World of Losers Movement unwittingly reveres Arkat the Loser; or maybe the Martyr. But Arkat became a god, or took himself to the Hero Plane where his secret star is hidden, in 500; that much seems sure; and in the Second Age the God Learners crushed his Autarchy. Until now… perhaps.”

“This all matters because there now are figures of great power in Ralios that believe in different aspects of Arkat, and at least five of them might be true Arkats, in a way. Each figure is at another city-state. Remember that no-one rules Ralios; it is a confederation of the city-states of Safelster and the diverse, fierce Storm Tribes of the East Wilds and then Vesmonstran to the north. Those city-states and tribes, like the Arkati, bicker and fight. But if they and the Arkati and the powers of Darkness, Dragons, Beasts, or whatever else are to be free, they must find more unity. Your words can have more power than your blades in Ralios.”

[scott-martin]

Flip a coin. If you aren't happy with the answer, flip it again. The Arkat question isn't so much an external fact to be divined as a diagnostic. Your answer is your answer. It tells us who you are.

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, bronze said:

Has Nysalor always been Gbaji, or cursed to be Gbaji by Arkat?

For me, Osentalka the Perfect One was born during the Sunstop, as was Arkat. Osentalka then became two personalities in the same body, Nysalor and Gbaji. It may be that Osentalka originally embodied both sides of his personality but at some point they became two. So, Nysalor and Gbajiwere two personalities in the same body. Does that mean they are the same person? Maybe, it could do. I can't remember what caused the split, maybe it was Arkat, maybe it was something else.

17 hours ago, bronze said:

Are both Arkat and Nysalor Gbaji?

Some people say that when Arkat and Gbaji fought their final battle, one emerged but nobody knew which it was. If you have seen the excellent Scanners film, it might be something like how that ends.

For me, Arkat could have been split into two personalities by the battle, in the same way that Osentalka was, but in his case it was Gbaji the Destroyer a non-chaotic version of Arkat, who was awakened.

17 hours ago, bronze said:

Is Gbaji a disparate entity from its host, or they are inseparable?

I think they are two sides of the same coin, so Gbaji is another side of the personality of the main person. So Osentalka/Nysalor and Osentalka/Gbaji are two different personalities but the same person. If you think of it as a cinematic split personality then it might make sense.

17 hours ago, bronze said:

Is Gabji objectively real, or is it a product of conflicting interpretation?

Oh, Gbaji is objectively real.

17 hours ago, bronze said:

It is really confusing, and it seems as if every scholar harbours their own theories and interpretations on the subject. 

Is is really confusing and, I think, deliberately so. Everyone has their own interpretation, so have a look and decide which bits you like.

 

[Zac]

24 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For me, Osentalka the Perfect One was born during the Sunstop, as was Arkat. Osentalka then became two personalities in the same body, Nysalor and Gbaji.

I can't find the reference any more but in one of my Glorantha books there is a mention of Osentalka being born and then turning into Nysalor once time started again. Osentalka is the perfect god but can't exist in time due to the Great Compromise. Once time starts, Chaos comes in through that crack and replaces Osentalka with Nysalor. 

[Zac]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Whenever Arkat looked at Nysalor, he perceived Gbaji. And that was Truth and correct.

Is it just me or do other people now read the Guide to Glorantha with @Joerg's voice?

[Akhôrahil]

"Arkat fought Nysalor, and Gbaji won."

[John Biles]

I operate on the idea that Arkat and Nysalor both got maneuvered to kill each other by Gbaji, who predates either of them (having clashed with Elmal before time even started) and that he basically won.  What was left of Arkat, his purpose ended, wandered off to try to find another one.  Nysalor was dead, and the stage was set for the Age of Empires.

 

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, John Biles said:

I operate on the idea that Arkat and Nysalor both got maneuvered to kill each other by Gbaji, who predates either of them (having clashed with Elmal before time even started) and that he basically won.  What was left of Arkat, his purpose ended, wandered off to try to find another one.  Nysalor was dead, and the stage was set for the Age of Empires.

Nysalor is rather clearly Rashoran reborn. Rashoran was killed by the Unholy Trio, but that doesn't prevent him from coming (or being brought) back as Gbaji.

Yellmalio's encounter with Teller of Lies might have been with Rashoran or with Gbaji, or (as likely) with both. Unlike his procreator, Yelmalio is not known to have been illuminated.

We don't know whether Gbaji had an in-world presence between the Dawn and the Sunstop. He might have experienced another rebirth. Or he might have led the Second Council to the Pseudocosmic Egg to facilitate his insertion between the new deity and its Shadow.

 

[Zac]

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Nysalor is rather clearly Rashoran reborn. Rashoran was killed by the Unholy Trio, but that doesn't prevent him from coming (or being brought) back as Gbaji.

Which echoes what happens with Sedenya. 

[Cassius]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:21 AM, bronze said:

Are both Arkat and Nysalor Gbaji?

In the chapter devoted to The Yelmalio in the History of the Heortling People, Gbaji, "the Great Liar", is the name of Great Nysalor's ennemy. Then, the name Pelorian Sun worshippers give to Arkat. Gbaji is the name of the Other one.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

In the chapter devoted to The Yelmalio in the History of the Heortling People, Gbaji, "the Great Liar", is the name of Great Nysalor's ennemy. Then, the name Pelorian Sun worshippers give to Arkat. Gbaji is the name of the Other one.

Something similar is in Lords of Terror, in an Elven source.

(I also love how the disaffected youth of Yuthuppa are doing Gbaji graffiti. 🙂 )

[Techpriest]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:21 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Something similar is in Lords of Terror, in an Elven source.

(I also love how the disaffected youth of Yuthuppa are doing Gbaji graffiti. 🙂 )

It's interesting how the High Council thought the best way to make a new Yelm they fully controlled was to just take all that Yelmalio had lost, spin it into a new god powered up with some other aspects, then merge them together. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Techpriest

[Cassius]

1 hour ago, Techpriest said:

It's interesting how the High Council thought the best way to make a new Yelm they fully controlled was to just take all that Yelmalio had lost, spin it into a new god powered up with some other aspects, then merge them together. 

I see why you're called Techpriest. 😄