Politics and ideology in Glorantha

[Hellhound Havoc]

I've been thinking about ideology in Glorantha. I don't mean our ideology, from our world, of course, but rather what sorts of ideologies might exist in a world such as this, and what would be the main factions, as well as what positions one might hold as important. We get clues from this every now and then, but I can't remember them all. So it goes something like this:

Dwarfs - Probably the most straightforward. The Mostali are either Orthodox or Heretics, with Heretics being against the status quo either in a radically individualistic or open bent (Individualism and Openhandism) or in an extreme reactionary bent (Octamonism). Thus the main issues relating to a Mostali are: do you support the status quo? What should be our relationship to the outside world? Do you have a stance on the Iron dwarfs?

In terms of goals, however, they all have the same one: restore the Machine God. That is in itself an ideology, though, because every one of these heresies are just different ways of restoring the Machine God.

Elfs - I honestly don't know a lot about the Aldryami, but I'd imagine that their major split would probably be on the grounds of Reforestation, what that entails, and to what degree that should go, with extreme reforestators saying the Aldryami should cover the entire world in trees, while more moderate types would be ok with just islands of forest in other biomes, like Prax. Plus the question of old grudges and whether they should let go or keep it up.

Trolls - The Uz seem to have the most cogent, almost disciplined and direct ideology of anyone, because they're basically fine with very little. As a species, they have basically one issue: their fertility goddess Korasting is dead and the children are being born weird now. Their stance on Chaos naturally stems from this, since it was Gbaji who did it. There's not a lot to divide the trolls; "should they contact this tribe or not" is an entirely practical matter, and there's just not enough people in your average troll clan to provide dissent, especially if there's an Uzuz nearby.

I can see a faction forming, however, of Lunar-sided Trolls, who learned about how another deity, Sedenya, was brought back by ritual, so maybe they're investigating the matter and perhaps even reaching Illumination and letting go of past grudges?

Lunar Empire - The main matter in Lunar lands is probably one of chaos. Aside from the "are you loyal or not" question, I imagine there are also pretenders or people who believe the Empire has gone too far away from their Carmanian origins and want to go back to that "golden age", when the women and barbarians knew their place. On the opposite end you have the White Moonies, who believe the Empire was never meant to have been created and the Empire must fizzle out.

Orlanthi - The main matter with the Orlanthi is the Lunar Empire, but there's a bit more nuance there, because there are factions whose actions may look identical, but their motivations may be different. For instance, the Rebels aren't really unified, their single goal is to remove Lunar occupation, but I imagine there are those who fight to restore the Prince of Sartar exactly as it was before and keep the Orlanthi conservative, but there must also be those who reject Lunar occupation but think Orlanthi society needs to embody the spirit of Movement from Orlanth and be shaken up, perhaps to learn something from the Lunars.

From those who support the Lunar Empire, and therefore reject the anti-Chaos Orlanthi ideology, there must also be White Moonies between them. And there's the Fazzurites and Phargenteites, which to me indicate different degrees of pro-Lunar fervour. Fazzur, for everything he's done, did save the citizens of Boldhome, and always gave me the vibe of "goddamn you rebels keep forcing my hand, I like this just as much as you do!", while Phargentes always struck me more as a power hungry guy with the spears to back it up.

 

I don't know enough about Prax, Pavis, and the Holy Country to talk about them tbh, but what do you think? Are there or should there be some other factions? What else would someone in Glorantha believe is an important issue that should be addressed?

[mfbrandi]

Thanks for this. Ideology is the purest expression of MGF. And in Glorantha false consciousness seems to run riot: only the illuminated have a chance to see clearly, but — by pressure of lore and fan desire — we are asked to see them as even crazier than the rest.

Personally, I would say let everyone be complicated and look for factions that reach across the “obvious” borders. For example, whatever baggage goes with I Fought We Won will be found in many species and cultures, and presumably it can be used to drive cross-cultural, multi-species factions.

24 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

There's not a lot to divide the trolls

I am not sure that is the fun way to look at it. After all, as you say:

25 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Korasting is dead and the children are being born weird now

The uz have been driven to eating their own children and regarding them as less than , but whatever the KL mainstream thinks, in my twisted imagination, the Old Dark as represented by the three curious spirits seems to see the enlo differently:

• Argan Argar gives them spears and shades
• Zorak Zoran accepts them if they are tough enough
• Xiola Umbar has its Bene Gesserit “breeding programme” (not to produce Kyle MacLachlan, but to transform the whole species)°

The three friends have different strategies, but they all learned early on that  had to function in a world that would contain just as much . Looked at one way, the “curse” of the kin was a blessing: many children and many mutations, so many chances to adapt to the world of Time and its ever-moving sun. Sure the “mistress race” (just a gender flip of the IRL fans of the Black Sun) is big and strong, and ants, cockroaches, and enlo are “small and weak” … but that is part of their strength. Evolution trumps “eugenics,” and fitness is not much like what the right imagined. The mistress race is blond, but the enlo are “latterly darkened.”

So not only does troll society have a massive rift, one side of the split holds to what is pretty much unspeakable:

• We must adapt or die — autogenocide is no solution!
  The most despised of us — our litter-born children — are our future.
  Soon the mistress race will be just a bitter memory — then they will fade even from myth.
  Sure, our great-great-great-grandchildren won’t be able chew the sacred images from rock, and the drinks we enjoy would kill them.
  You say our culture will be lost.
  I say we will be transformed.
  I won’t be there to see it, but one day, the little ones will run and laugh in the midday sun.

At this point, the prophet was torn apart and eaten by the more conservative members of her community, but the XU sisters had listened — because weird is good. They hid their smiles, and — like the spider — made their secret plans. The secret of the light within will have its mystical aspect, but there is something absolutely down-to-earth practical about befriending Yelm, the “enemy.”

By now — naturally — canon has been forgotten, and your Glorantha will vary differently.

 

—————————————————————————
° Surely, we have all of us thought that the trollkin best adapted to the surface and the sun don’t live with the backward-looking uz — XU releases them into the wild to live as what they are, the human race (diurnal trolls). We are all uz.

[Hellhound Havoc]

5 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

For example, whatever baggage goes with I Fought We Won will be found in many species and cultures, and presumably it can be used to drive cross-cultural, multi-species factions.

I totally forgot about this, but it's absolutely true. The Orlanthi say it was Heort, and maybe it was, but the trolls in particular were also out there fighting. For all we know, the last hero was an uz, or a lone aldryami in the woods, or even a pack of plucky adventurers pulled together by the circumstance. Could have been a golden wheel dancer lol that would make everyone mad.

 

8 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Looked at one way, the “curse” of the kin was a blessing: many children and many mutations, so many chances to adapt to the world of Time and its ever-moving sun.

This is a nice way to look at it. The Uz started being born in litters with the enlo, after all, and the existence of "Superior Trollkin" proves that, with enough time and effort, the curse doesn't have to be a curse forever. You could say it's just a phase of their species' story that has changed. We really are all uz.

I wonder how that interacts with the I Fought We Won anti-chaos ideology, because the trollkin are essentially a product of chaos, so the hardliners anti-chaos wouldn't be able to reconcile it. At the same time, those who embrace the Lunar Way can do so either because they think the goddess can be regenerated like Sedenya and the curse can be averted, or because they think this is no curse at all and illumination is the only way to escape from the anti-chaos autogenocidal trap.

To one side, the Uz live in a disciplined, cogent, top-down society. To the other majority side, the Uz live in a tyrannical, Spartan society on its way to oblivion because the Uzuz won't all live forever - not even the Only Old One could survive, after all.

[mfbrandi]

2 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Could have been a golden wheel dancer lol that would make everyone mad.

No, @Erol of Backford would love it. 😉

[mfbrandi]

4 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

To one side, the Uz live in a disciplined, cogent, top-down society. To the other majority side, the Uz live in a tyrannical, Spartan society on its way to oblivion

That old red, BB’s “Paradise and Hell can be one city.”

6 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

essentially a product of chaos

Like everything else in Glorantha. Chaos seems to be Glorantha’s essentially contested concept. 😉

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So not only does troll society have a massive rift, one side of the split holds to what is pretty much unspeakable:

• We must adapt or die — autogenocide is no solution!
  The most despised of us — our litter-born children — are our future.
  Soon the mistress race will be just a bitter memory — then they will fade even from myth.
  Sure, our great-great-great-grandchildren won’t be able chew the sacred images from rock, and the drinks we enjoy would kill them.
  You say our culture will be lost.
  I say we will be transformed.
  I won’t be there to see it, but one day, the little ones will run and laugh in the midday sun.

At this point, the prophet was torn apart and eaten by the more conservative members of her community, but the XU sisters had listened — because weird is good. They hid their smiles, and — like the spider — made their secret plans. The secret of the light within will have its mystical aspect, but there is something absolutely down-to-earth practical about befriending Yelm, the “enemy.”

By now — naturally — canon has been forgotten, and your Glorantha will vary differently.

The sad truth about Trolldom is that since 1623, Dark Trolls are as obsolete as the Hero Wars era plethora of subcults. The Hellmother of Eldest Kin in Dagori Inkarth has given birth to the first prototype New Model troll, a reproductive dreadnought when compared to its wood-clad sailing ship predecessor uzko. A way to sidestep the Curse of Kin for all fertile Mistress Race females, and no Curse of Kin for the New Model Surface World troll. Without the ongoing infusion of Mistress Race blood into the Dark Troll population, the Curse of Kin will reduce their offspring to enlo within a few handful of generations, and enlo breeding programs among the runts are bound to lead to frailer and frailer specimen.

Likewise, the Pamaltelan Dark Trolls of Tarmo have succeeded in reviving the Horned Trolls of myth, another species immune to the Curse of Kin while retaining the full Kyger Litor ancestry unlike the jungle trolls. They too are relegated to a less fertile servitor caste for the new model trolls. The Jrusteli dark trolls are going to receive a land bridge connecting their soon-no-longer islands with the mainland that also contains Tarmo, courtesy of the mostali Somelz project, which might put them into the Tarmo scheme as well.

The reason why the Kingdom of Ignorance manages to maintain a stable huge trollkin population hasn't been been made public yet - constant re-imports from Koromondol doesn't quite work out. Somehow the little runts there seem to be able to reproduce without (much) further physical and mental deterioration.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Somehow the little runts there seem to be able to reproduce without (much) further physical and mental deterioration.

I dimly remember an old Bruce Sterling story about how intelligence was overrated as a survival strategy. 😉

[Hellhound Havoc]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The sad truth about Trolldom is that since 1623, Dark Trolls are as obsolete as the Hero Wars era plethora of subcults.

Sorry, could you expand a bit on what's up with the subcults? I know a bit about past history, but "current" events in Glorantha elude me a bit, and I got curious

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Sorry, could you expand a bit on what's up with the subcults? I know a bit about past history, but "current" events in Glorantha elude me a bit, and I got curious

Oh. misleading phrasing on my side. I was talking about the Hero Wars rpg era which had about one subcult of a deity for every sprecial rune spell associated with that deity in RuneQuest. While it was very nice to have some variation between the mainstream deity cultists, the sheer number of new names and subdivisions was staggering.

In the in-world Hero Wars era, there are going to be a lot of yet-to-be named heroes who might carve their way into their cults' catalogue of cult heroes or even subcults, provided the cult and the cult entity survive the major cataclysm that is going to spell the end of the Third Age and open the way into another post-cataclysmic era of History.

There seems to be something like a typical crown test for sacred kingship (including becoming King of Dragon Pass) which is to bring (back) an animal from the realm of myth, in the weaker form just as prey from a mythical hunt (like certain Grazer kings being renowned for hunting copper deer or similar) or as a new component of the ecosystem, like the songbird brought back by Moirades when he became King of Dragon Pass, or the aurochs about to be brought back by (or for, accompanied by) Argrath.

Past cataclysms had plenty heroic protagonists who have been immortalized in plays and/or skaldic/epic poetry active around the past cataclysmic events ending an Age. And plenty whose deeds got ascribed to one of the bigger names of the era. 

[DreadDomain]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

The sad truth about Trolldom is that since 1623, Dark Trolls are as obsolete as the Hero Wars era plethora of subcults. The Hellmother of Eldest Kin in Dagori Inkarth has given birth to the first prototype New Model troll

Can you please expand this? What is the source of this?

[Richard S.]

13 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

I totally forgot about this, but it's absolutely true. The Orlanthi say it was Heort, and maybe it was, but the trolls in particular were also out there fighting. For all we know, the last hero was an uz, or a lone aldryami in the woods, or even a pack of plucky adventurers pulled together by the circumstance. Could have been a golden wheel dancer lol that would make everyone mad.

I'm pretty sure all of those are true. Nobody argues about who the last hero was - anyone who's taken part in sacred time ceremonies has gotten a chance to experience it themselves, to be that last hero.

I fought.

We won.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Can you please expand this? What is the source of this?

The Tarmo stuff is in the Umathela chapter plus a skull is shown in Troll Pak.

The Dagori Inkarth stuff is the consequence of the Troll Swarm event in the 1620ies.

[mfbrandi]

An aside, safely ignored:

Spoiler

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

the sheer number of new names and subdivisions was staggering

But the character didn’t have to “record membership” of the subcult to learn its “special magic” (Hero Wars, p. 181), so it is perhaps not quite as crazily unmanageable as it might sound.

Even if, at the limit, one had ended up with a subcult per “feat,” would that have been more complex than a write-up for each spell, or would it just have relocated the complexity? In one case, “The hero did this: jam on it.” In the other, “Points, range, duration, stacking, reusability, description of effect.” (No answer assumed here.)

[Sir_Godspeed]

Most Gloranthan societies, being modeled on pre-modern societies, probably don't have much in the way of FORMALIZED ideologies, but they do of course have religious and secular worldviews that shape what they want and how they think they should act to achieve that. 

One thing I like about RQ though, is that it also emphasises that what drives people most of the time is not abstract beliefs ("we must end the curse of kin"), but more immediately personal relations and goals ("I must ensure that my sister has lots of healthy babies so that our social standing rises."). Hence the passions thing, as opposed to the more loosey-goosey idea of DnD alignments. 

This also means that you can find lots of individuals and groups who are totally willing to act against what should ON PAPER be their group's worldview, because it benefits them locally. Ie. Orlanthi clans cooperating with the Lunars, Trolls cooperating with Elves or whatever have you. 

It's this in-group allegiance mechanic that drives a lot of wacky alliances, frustratingly petty conflicts, and knock-on-effects that defy simple ideological explanations. 

Which is fun, because we see that kinda stuff pop up IRL history all the time.

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:19 PM, Hellhound Havoc said:

Lunar Empire - The main matter in Lunar lands is probably one of chaos. Aside from the "are you loyal or not" question, I imagine there are also pretenders or people who believe the Empire has gone too far away from their Carmanian origins and want to go back to that "golden age", when the women and barbarians knew their place. On the opposite end you have the White Moonies, who believe the Empire was never meant to have been created and the Empire must fizzle out.

Right now, the White Moonies are what they mostly have to handle ideologically. It's a cogent and consistent in-Lunar challenge to the Empire, and the problem is that when you listen to them, they make a very good point.

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Dagori Inkarth stuff is the consequence of the Troll Swarm event in the 1620ies.

Where is this actually stated? I mean, I think it makes good sense and all, but...

Edited October 30, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:19 PM, Hellhound Havoc said:

Orlanthi - The main matter with the Orlanthi is the Lunar Empire, but there's a bit more nuance there, because there are factions whose actions may look identical, but their motivations may be different. For instance, the Rebels aren't really unified, their single goal is to remove Lunar occupation, but I imagine there are those who fight to restore the Prince of Sartar exactly as it was before and keep the Orlanthi conservative, but there must also be those who reject Lunar occupation but think Orlanthi society needs to embody the spirit of Movement from Orlanth and be shaken up, perhaps to learn something from the Lunars.

The former division was Traditionalist/Appeaser, but in Sartar this has probably moved to Traditionalist/Radical now, with Argrath as the standard-bearer of the radicals (and traditionalist king Broyan dead).

Edited October 30, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

I would argue that Ideology in Glorantha is primarily religious, as every religion is, by definition, an ideology.  Furthermore, those religions all have their place within a complex interrelated mythological ecology.  In this way, ideology in Glorantha is quite formalized.

The real politics is all about FACTIONS.  

Orlanthi struggle to get a friend onto the clan or tribal ring.  Families take their legal issues to the ring seeking justice, but always seeking to increase their benefit, legitimate or not.  Rich families patronize Clan Chiefs, or forward their own members for the role.  Attitudes to Lunar occupation runs the gamut from anti-lunar terrorist who has thrown all honor away, up to "More Lunar than Lunar" converts who have thrown all honor away, and every gradation in between.  

Politics is a moving feast, and every day or week will bring a new issue to resolve.

Good leaders are skilled at reaching a consensus which serves to weld their group together.

A perfect consensus is seldom reached however, as there are always some people who find themselves aggrieved by the political process.

Of course there is the alternative strategy of "Divide and conquer" where leaders set factions against each other, while gradually disempowering them all as they argue for more stringent laws to control the threat the other faction poses.

 

By comparison, the Lunar Empire is extremely Orwellian due to Illumination.

Truth is Falsehood.  Beauty is Ugliness.  War is Peace. Misery is Happiness. Wealth is Poverty.  Slavery is Freedom.  Oppression is Joy.  Sacrifice is Profit.  Atrocity is Compassion.  Wisdom is Foolishness.  Madness is Sanity.  Life is Death.  Property is Theft.  Strength is Weakness.  Health is Disease.

Illumination is all about reconciling opposite ideas.  Lunars reconcile three or more of these contradictions and many others before breakfast each day while professing their love for Moonson.  Most Lunars find themselves babbling incoherently, reconciling ridiculous contradictions, and regard the madness they experience as a sign of spiritual progress, willingly accepting a Mind Blast being cast upon them as a valuable spiritual lesson on the road to illumination; a peak experience, if you will.  

Edited November 3, 2023 by Darius West

[Jeff]

Not to be a party pooper, but I don't think "ideology" plays that much of a role in most Gloranthan societies. People have personal connections - clan, tribe, temples, individuals, etc. -  and initiatory experiences. So if I am an initiate of Orlanth, I have had an initiatory experience and I have have a personal connection with the god Orlanth. He's my patron and I can wield some of his power. Now the Orlanth cult has its likes and dislikes, but these are going to be tied to my initiatory experience, the deeds of the god (some of which I have witnessed and experienced), and the history of the cult. 

The Lunar Empire is not particularly ideological. It is the worldly domain of the Red Goddess, entrusted to the Red Emperor - her son and head of the Yelm cult. At the very apex of most Lunar cults are the Red Goddess initiates, who are Illuminated but the overwhelming majority of Lunars are not Illuminated. Most are just Seven Mothers initiates, who have had an experience that COULD lead them on the path to Illumination, but usually does not. Most people offer lay member worship to the Red Emperor as the god-emperor, and are loyal to him because he is the god-emperor. 

This stuff is not terribly abstract - that initiatory experience is EXPERIENCED not taught. My kinship ties are family, reinforced by ritual and events, and not some political party manifesto. 

Now ideology no doubt plays a role in Lhankor Mhy arguments and in internecine Malkioni disputes, although I suspect even there personal loyalties play a bigger role than people might think.

[soltakss]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:19 PM, Hellhound Havoc said:

Dwarfs - Probably the most straightforward. The Mostali are either Orthodox or Heretics, with Heretics being against the status quo either in a radically individualistic or open bent (Individualism and Openhandism) or in an extreme reactionary bent (Octamonism). Thus the main issues relating to a Mostali are: do you support the status quo? What should be our relationship to the outside world? Do you have a stance on the Iron dwarfs?

In terms of goals, however, they all have the same one: restore the Machine God. That is in itself an ideology, though, because every one of these heresies are just different ways of restoring the Machine God.

Don't forget Flintnail Dwarves, as they are Openhandist and Individualist, also they worship Flintnail and Pavis. They are quite different from normal Mostali.

There are also Chaos Mostali in the Tunnelled Hills, but who knows what they believe.

On 10/29/2023 at 1:19 PM, Hellhound Havoc said:

Elfs - I honestly don't know a lot about the Aldryami, but I'd imagine that their major split would probably be on the grounds of Reforestation, what that entails, and to what degree that should go, with extreme reforestators saying the Aldryami should cover the entire world in trees, while more moderate types would be ok with just islands of forest in other biomes, like Prax. Plus the question of old grudges and whether they should let go or keep it up.

In Dorastor, the Hellwood and Poisonthorn Aldryami are at war with one another. Although they are both rabidly xenophobic, the Hellwood Aldryami hate Lunars and Humans more than the Poisonthorn Aldryami do, they also have a healthy dollop of Krjalk worship thrown into the mix.

Aldryami in the Garden, in the Big Rubble, want a return to the Green Age, or the restoration of the Forest of Prax. 

I am not sure about the intentions of the Great Forests, obviously they want to expand and to reclaim their former territories but many are friendly towards humans.

 

[metcalph]

43 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget Flintnail Dwarves, as they are Openhandist and Individualist, also they worship Flintnail and Pavis.

Apostates might be a better word for them.

43 minutes ago, soltakss said:

.There are also Chaos Mostali in the Tunnelled Hills, but who knows what they believe.

Krarsht is my guess.

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

Apostates might be a better word for them.

My headcanon is that the Pavis dwarves pretend to be merely your run-of-the-mill heretics, while in fact they're beyond the pale even for heretics.