Off Topic - Really! Christianity and RPGs

[Mankcam]

Okay guys, I think this thread is getting a bit sour. I guess it shows that most people here are mature in years, and as such they have formed fairly strong world views.

The original premise was that 'Roleplaying = Devil Worship', which we all agreed is ridiculous.

Then it's got a little off-topic by bashing people's personal fundamental beliefs, which was bound to stir up a few poeple, and rightly so, given that it is ridiculing something quite important to them.

This topic has the potential to polarise alot of people's viewpoints, and possibly weaken this forum as a whole.

So perhaps it's time to let this thread die, and get back to tweaking fantasy worlds and all the other great creativity that comes out of this forum.

[rust]

OH YES!!! You mean that golden-paved internet road, don't you?

Of course.

Speaking about gold, you might take a look at the basement of some of the tem-

ples in the area, it seems you might find interesting things there ...:

After certain examinations conducted in July 2011 in its six secret underground

vaults by a seven-member panel appointed by the Supreme Court of India, this

temple could be the richest temple in the world as unofficial estimates place the

value of its diamonds, gold, and other precious metals at close to 100,000 crore

(US$22.3 billion).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhaswamy_Temple

As a roleplayer I should have some good plans for a clever temple robbery ready,

and now I wonder whether my invisible dragon could take me to Travancore ...

[Conrad]

Okay guys, I think this thread is getting a bit sour. I guess it shows that most people here are mature in years, and as such they have formed fairly strong world views.

The original premise was that 'Roleplaying = Devil Worship', which we all agreed is ridiculous.

Then it's got a little off-topic by bashing people's personal fundamental beliefs, which was bound to stir up a few poeple, and rightly so, given that it is ridiculing something quite important to them.

This topic has the potential to polarise alot of people's viewpoints, and possibly weaken this forum as a whole.

So perhaps it's time to let this thread die, and get back to tweaking fantasy worlds and all the other great creativity that comes out of this forum.

Some things are deserving of ridicule. No one is making anyone read this thread. If someone is offended maybe they shouldn't be reading it? I hope that if this thread comes to an end it will be due to lack of steam (or should that be flame?) and not because sensitive folk badger the moderator to silence legitimate criticism of their beliefs, or those of extremist religious fanatics.

[soltakss]

Icebrand. Soltakss just threatened to try to get this thread moderated out of existence, just because he felt uncomfortable. Whatever respect you have for Soltakss, don't let it blind you to the fact that he turns into a control freak and issues threats to to stop comments when he doesn't like them.

Did I? I'd be happy if this was closed down. I haven't asked for it to be closed down, nor am I going to.

Thanks for giving us all permission to discuss subjects that you find uncomfortable. Thats mighty charitable of you sir.

Why, thank you. Do you want my permission to do anything else? Let me know and I'll think about it.

Now who made you moderator? And why do we need your permission to discuss anything?

I've never been banned or suspended from this group as I know which lines should be crossed and which shouldn't.

[Eric L. Webb]

ummm.... hey guys, i just got the go ahead to start writting a new monograph. It will be a (Classic) fantasy monograph entitled "Tomb of the Necrodemon"!!!

[soltakss]

Mormons, Protestants, etc =! christians in the context the translated phrase works =)

OK, you have said that, which is fair enough. However, I'd be interested to find out why you'd "never, ever think I was a mormon". PM me if you'd prefer.

Link? Btw, i DO know martial arts!!!

http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/1835-Grappling-problems?p=33415#post33415

[soltakss]

But, moving to serious things, I really look forward to read Simon's Merry England.

Thanks - it should be ready "soon". It does cover Christianity, Islam and Judaism in a medieval context. It also covers Demonology in some detail.

BTW one of those English Franciscan logicians - Roger Bacon - was also a wizard of sorts and accused of summoning demons.

An with that we have come full circle.

A lot of them were. Franciscans studied the occult so that they could fight it better. As with such things, it could also corrupt them and lead them to demonology.

ummm.... hey guys, i just got the go ahead to start writting a new monograph. It will be a (Classic) fantasy monograph entitled "Tomb of the Necrodemon"!!!

Good stuff. Sounds like a dungeon crawl, so it should be good.

[icebrand]

Thanks - it should be ready "soon". It does cover Christianity, Islam and Judaism in a medieval context. It also covers Demonology in some detail.

But... Can you summon poledancers from hell? I would TOTALLY buy it if so!

[soltakss]

They aren't explicitly described, but would be one of the minor demonic classes.

Oh, if you're going to buy a copy then yes you can summon poledancers from Hell.

[soltakss]

Whatever respect you have for Soltakss, don't let it blind you to the fact that he turns into a control freak and issues threats to to stop comments when he doesn't like them.

I'm a RQ GM, of course I'm a control freak who issues threats to stop comments I don't like.

[icebrand]

OK, you have said that, which is fair enough. However, I'd be interested to find out why you'd "never, ever think I was a mormon". PM me if you'd prefer.

Just the same i would never though you would be any other sect, christians = evangelicals in my country (also, i don't know any mormons personally, so they don't rank very high in my brand recognition abilities!)

[dragonewt]

The point is, no matter the belief system, humans are humans; controlled by Serotonin (feel good when doing things that maintain and improve survival, eating, reproduction, control of resources, and influence over others), hard-wired with Cognitive Dissonance, and limited by the Dunning-Kruger effect.

These kept the species alive as animals. Until humans as a collective whole can rise above this, there will always be issues.

PS: For the purists, Wikipedia is just a starting point to the topics and not authoritative.

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.

When goodness is lost, there is morality.

When morality is lost, there is ritual.

Ritual is the husk of true faith,

the beginning of chaos.

Edited July 4, 2011 by dragonewt

[TLS]

Well, well. While looking for "Critical Hit Tables" on the Internet, I found this URL:

http://www.espministries.com/Topic-Dungeons.html

Somebody who is talking about D&D and how evil RPGs are. I know this is waaaaaay Off-Topic, but I thought it might be worth a look.

While I do not want to place my religious believes on the plate here, I still find the topic interesting.

The guy is talking about how players over-identificate with their characters. Well, HE is not saying that, but quoting it.

What he says is:

<<After extensive research, the Christian Life Ministries concludes: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS™ instead of a game is a teaching on demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, Satan worship, gambling, Jungian psychology, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning. Necromantics, divination and many more teachings, brought to you in living color direct from the pit of hell!!!">>

Wow, never thought about that. In fact, it does not even bother me. Neither side, the "dark" nor the "light" one. To my THIS is over-reaction.

>>". . . after years of study of the history of occultism, after having researched a book on the subject, and after having consulted with scholars in the field of historical research, I can say with confidence: these games are the most effective, most magnificently packaged, most profitably marketed, most thoroughly researched introduction to the occult in man's recorded history."<<

So, it means that every author writing an RPG book or fantasy novels is an occult member trying to spread the occult word? This brings light into many Call of Cthulhu RPG books now ... I think I now fully understand the Other Gods, Nyarlathotep, Azatoth and ... oooooh (critical failure of my sanity check)

He is right, though, these RPG books are well researched, well worded, effective and the best books covering the topic in known history.

Do they bring me to the edge of madness? Is their way leading away from God? I do not think so.

But the books do get me THINKING! And questioning given facts that others take for granted ...

>>John Torell, with Christian Life Ministries in California, received a phone call from a medical doctor in Seattle, Washington. The doctor is treating a policeman for severe depression caused by the suicide of his sixteen-year-oId son. The son, who had been heavily involved in D&D™ for two years, shot himself with his father's service revolver.<<

And D&D is involved in the death because ...?

>>Some have argued that D&D™ is a healthy release of suppressed hostilities. But seeing the power that can be seized in games, psychiatrist Laurence Johnson cautions, "If I had a child who tended toward schizophrenia, I'd never let him near D&D™. There's a danger that it would reinforce feelings of grandiosity, of omnipotence. Reality and fantasy are hard enough for schizophrenics to differentiate."<<

Jep, that is right. And you do not want to watch TV if you suffer from epileptic seizures. It is a fact that people with certain illnesses have to be careful what they do.

>>"[...] Nearly everybody would rather play evil characters because they are much more powerful."<

That is not true and lacks facts. It purely depends on the rule system.

>>Does it {D&D} increase or decrease a player’s faith in God and His Word?<<

Does it have to? Does a book have to do that? A movie? A radio station?

>>Make sure that your children are not involved with or participating in D&D™.

Distribute this information to young people, youth ministers, teachers, etc.

Contact me for more information, especially if your child or children are involved.<<

Wow, he reminds me on the discussion if Heavy Metal music is evil and satanic. Some people just do not get it. On the other hand, I do not get his so strong believes in god. Looks like he is on a mission and made some long shots here.

I only do hope parents will do a better research on the topic than he did and they come to a conclusion that is best for their child.

Okay, this is a long thread and I did not read it through. Hoprfully, I am not repeating what someone else might have brought up.

This thread is a good opportunity to inform you about the Committee for the Advancement of Role-Playing Games. This is a private, non-profit group that started out as an effort to counteract the negative claims made about RPGs back in the 1980's. There have not been many such claims in recent years so most of our activity has gone to a more academic research about RPGs as a hobby and cultural phenomenon.

Anytime you hear of such negative claims please contact the Chair or one of the Regional Directors and let them know about it. There are a lot of forums and we can't monitor all of them so direct contact would be appreciated. You can find out the contact info here:

www.car-pga.org

I should also point out that CAR-PGa has a googlegroup and we also publish a newsletter( which can be had in paper or electronic form).

[GianniVacca]

Make sure that your children are not involved with or participating in D&D

Everyone who knows me can testify that I've ever only played BRP, T&T, and HeroQuest with my children. No D&D!

[icebrand]

I think RetroQuest 1st ed (coming soon) is possessed by the devil, lets see:

- 7 Characteristics

- 3 Attributes

- 5 Stat Rolls

- 7 Basic Skills

- 3 Combat Skills

- 11 Advanced Skills

- 29 Weapons

- 7 Armors

Groovy eh?

[TLS]

Everyone who knows me can testify that I've ever only played BRP, T&T, and HeroQuest with my children. No D&D!

I'm not sure if that was intentional or not but I'm not the one who posted that particular statement.

[sdavies2720]

I think that guy has a point, RPGs are dangerous and evil, but his way of exposing them is soo 80s. Now, this guy doesn't pull any punches:

http://www.ilmatar.net/~np/gameofsatan/

Maybe I'd be a little more worried about this if they could spell, use correct grammar... Heck, even the prurient pictures (edited of course with a little black strip over the naughty bits) shout out that this is a troll site.

[Edit:] we can probably help our own cause by not putting live links to these sites -- it only supports them with some of our SEO/Google-fu

Steve

[rust]

Maybe I'd be a little more worried about this if they could spell, use correct grammar... Heck, even the prurient pictures (edited of course with a little black strip over the naughty bits) shout out that this is a troll site.

Ah ... it actually is a website created by a well known Finnish author and role-

player, one of his many jokes about Christian fundamentalists in Finland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niilo_Paasivirta

Edited July 7, 2011 by rust

[tedopon]

Anybody who thinks that ilmatar.net is not a joke needs to go back to their TV Guide/TIME magazine.

[Redstone]

nuff said.

[Conrad]

I'm a RQ GM, of course I'm a control freak who issues threats to stop comments I don't like.

ROFLMAO;D

I'm glad that you're having a joke Soltakss, and not weirdly ranting like Anders Behring Breivik did (see below); because then I wouldn't be laughing.

"If praying will act as an additional mental boost/soothing it is the pragmatical thing to do. I guess I will find out... If there is a God I will be allowed to enter heaven as all other martyrs for the Church in the past.

I am pursuing religion for this very reason and everyone else should as well, providing it will give you a mental boost. There is no shame in praying minutes before your death. I highly recommend that you, prior to the operation, visit a Church and perform the Eucharist (Holy Communion/The Lord's Supper ). As we know, this ritual represents the final meal that Jesus Christ shared with his disciples before his arrest and eventual crucifixion. You should also solve any issues you might have with God and ask for forgiveness for past sins. Finally, ask him to prepare for the arrival of a martyr for the Church. A hardened atheist may think this is silly, but believe me when I say; you will be extremely glad you did as soon as you realise you may actually die after the initiation of your operation.

Sure, many deny God now. But when they're looking death in the face, when they're sick or in an accident or staring down the barrel of a gun, they'll change their mind. They'll beg for God then. There are no atheists in foxholes."

Edited July 25, 2011 by Conrad

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Anybody who thinks that ilmatar.net is not a joke needs to go back to their TV Guide/TIME magazine.

I'm always amazed by how many people think he's for real. I mean, it's not exactly a subtle spoof.