BRP needs mini-settings

[TrippyHippy]

Maybe I could be pointed in the direction of some but as far as I am aware, there isn’t that many supplements available for this current iteration of BR:UGE.

It is early days still but I would like to make some sort of call out to third party creators or Chaosium itself, that what the game really needs is a bunch of short, creative mini settings - no more than 50 pages tops - that could be printed out from PDF files, maybe with a short adventure or two included. I’ve seen a few people suggesting they are working on settings, but what I am suspecting is this means larger setting books (200 pages or so). There is a place for this but short, cheap and quick stuff for one shots gets into the whole spirit of a universal system more I think. 

What do other people think?

 

Edited January 1 by TrippyHippy

[Nozbat]

Its a fair point @TrippyHippy but I think people like to keep to a setting or genre and play more a campaign game rather than short one-off scenarios. BR:UGE is so diverse and I guess people use it in various different modalities. I've seen people on BRP ask for Stone Age scenarios to far future Space Age settings, and anything in between. If the settings were non-specific and easily convertible to various settings, I think your proposal would be useful.

I tend to decide on a specific setting, either create the detail or use existing scenarios and then pose a number of dilemmas for the players and see where it takes us. I never know what the players will do and tend to make stuff up on the hoof with anchor points of events I have decided will happen in a timeline independent of their actions. That's the style of play I've always liked.

Having said that I do cannibalise other ideas from stuff I've read, movies and other published scenarios. Sometimes a scenario works in the setting, most often it doesn't but if I can lift ideas from it then I make some changes and use it. 

It would be interesting what other people think though and if there are any creators willing to say what they are working on.

[Raleel]

I do these up for my games for mythras. No reason why they shouldn’t work just fine for BRPUGE

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

What do other people think?

Interesting idea, but does any RPG have something like this? Most universal RPGs (HERO, GURPS, d20 Modern) have setting books but they are a larger than 50 pages. I think that by the time an author tweaks chargen for the setting, sorts out what available for weapons, equipment, and powers, introduces and needed new rules, describes the setting, and does up an adventure, it's going to end up over 50 pages. Glancing at the universal supplements I have most seem to come in at about 120 pages. I suspect that's probably about the size needed to jump through all the required hoops.

Now maybe if someone just focused on an adventure, and maybe do just the setting, they could get it smaller. Say someone makes a generic setting or two with the required rules, and then a series of short adventures for those settings. 

 

[TrippyHippy]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Interesting idea, but does any RPG have something like this?

 

Yes. Fate has lots of mini settings - a lot of them are pay-what-you-want and a number of them have been collected into anthologies. A lot of these settings are really creative and original and about 50 pages or less in many cases. If you are wanting to switch between a variety of settings frequently, this is all you need - the longer the supplements, the harder they are to switch to. Have a look for yourselves.

BRP actually had this too - they had an anthology of different adventures with different settings in some supplements when the big gold book originally came out as well as with the quick-play. The original Worlds of Wonder - with Magic World, Super World and Future World - was this concept too, of course. Imagine they had just kept going with Crime World, Wild West World, erm....Apocalypse World and so on?

Edited January 1 by TrippyHippy

[rsanford]

20 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

Yes. Fate has lots of mini settings - a lot of them are pay-what-you-want and a number of them have been collected into anthologies. A lot of these settings are really creative and original and about 50 pages or less in many cases. If you are wanting to switch between a variety of settings frequently, this is all you need - the longer the supplements, the harder they are to switch to. Have a look for yourselves.

BRP actually had this too - they had an anthology of different adventures with different settings in some supplements when the big gold book originally came out as well as with the quick-play. The original Worlds of Wonder - with Magic World, Super World and Future World - was this concept too, of course. Imagine they had just kept going with Crime World, Wild West World, erm....Apocalypse World and so on?

Wow! I had know idea these were available for Fate. Deeper down the rabbit hole I go....

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

Yes. Fate has lots of mini settings - a lot of them are pay-what-you-want and a number of them have been collected into anthologies. A lot of these settings are really creative and original and about 50 pages or less in many cases. If you are wanting to switch between a variety of settings frequently, this is all you need - the longer the supplements, the harder they are to switch to. Have a look for yourselves.

FATE is a rules lite system though. So authors can just focus on the setting and atmosphere. BRP would need a little more.

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

BRP actually had this too - they had an anthology of different adventures with different settings in some supplements when the big gold book originally came out as well as with the quick-play.

Which didn't really sell at that well. Remeber that Chaosium had mostly stopped supporting BRP in favor of stand alone RPGs until  WotC started driving off their fans and third party supporters. 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

The original Worlds of Wonder - with Magic World, Super World and Future World - was this concept too, of course. Imagine they had just kept going with Crime World, Wild West World, erm....Apocalypse World and so on?

The original WoW idea was a great concept. Iit came out, but mostly faded. It didn't really help to promote the system, and it was never as popular as RQ, CoC, Pendragon or Stormbringer. 

So I don't think BRP needs mini-settings. Mini-setting probably won't help BRP much at all. I think it does need at least one new setting with several adventures for it. It's ususally the adventures that make a game.

 

 

 

Edited January 1 by Atgxtg

[TrippyHippy]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

FATE is a rules lite system though. So authors can just focus on the setting and atmosphere. BRP would need a little more.

Which didn't really sell at that well. Remeber that Chaosium had mostly stopped supporting BRP in favor of stand alone RPGs until  WotC started driving off their fans and third party supporters. 

The original WoW idea was a great concept. Iit came out, but mostly faded. It didn't really help to promote the system, and it was never as popular as RQ, CoC, Pendragon or Stormbringer. 

So I don't think BRP needs mini-settings. Mini-setting probably won't help BRP much at all. I think it does need at least one new setting with several adventures for it. It's ususally the adventures that make a game.

Fate is a rule-set that can be customised and expanded accordingly. It is no lighter than BRP - which can also be run as a light system and customised accordingly. Your view here is prejudicial, honestly.

Do you have sales figures? The fact is that when Worlds of Wonder came out it was an entirely novel concept - it predates GURPS which was the system that really marketed itself as a universal engine to a continual fanbase. Worlds of Wonder didn’t necessarily get the right model for supplemental support - aside from developing Superworld further - but it is entirely speculation whether it could have been more successful had it, for example, aggressively followed up the box set with multiple setting mini-setting ‘modules’ that fans could collect. We’ll never know because they never did this. My view is that WoW faded simply because it didn’t provide enough interesting settings quickly enough.

So, actually, I’ll up the ante and state that I think BRP really does need to have supplemental support for it to remain in the public eye and succeed as a product. A pacy release schedule of cheap mini settings has worked for FATE.  It could work very well for BRP too.

 

 

Edited January 1 by TrippyHippy

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

Fate is a rule-set that can be customised and expanded accordingly. It is no lighter than BRP - which can also be run as a light system and customised accordingly. Your view here is prejudicial, honestly.

FATE is a lot lighter than BRP. You don't have pages of weapons tables in FATE. FATE does everything with a FUDGE die roll and the ladder. FATE also has (or at lead had) a free SRD. 

BRP has a 260+ page rule book (previously over 400 [pages). So not as light.

Now BRP once was very lite (16 oppages or so) and in that form it might work in 50 pages or less.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

Do you have sales figures?

No, and neither does anybody else. But if it sold as well as any of the other games, it would have gotten support. 

 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

The fact is that when Worlds of Wonder came out it was an entirely novel concept - it predates GURPS which was the system that really marketed itself as a universal engine to a continual fanbase.

Yes, but what does have to do withit being successful. Yeah, you might like it. I liked it too, and Jason Durall has noted that he likes it. But that didn't mean that it was a major success. 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

Worlds of Wonder didn’t necessarily get the right model for supplemental support - aside from developing Superworld further

It got no support. The Superoworlrd boxed set was essentially a new edition. 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

- but it is entirely speculation whether it could have been more successful had it, for example, aggressively followed up the box set with multiple setting mini-setting ‘modules’ that fans could collect. We’ll never know because they never did this.

Yes, enitrely speculation - your. You are the one speculating that it could have been more successful, if they had done something differently. But you have no evidence to support that view.

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

My view is that WoW faded simply because it didn’t provide enough interesting settings quickly enough.

It faded because it got no support whatsoever.. Not only that but it's fourth setting, Viking World, was moved over to RQ3 instead. One of the big differences between GURPS/HERO and Worlds of Wonder is that the former two game systems were full fledged games, while WoW wasn't. BRP (at that time) was a trimmed down version of RuneQuest. So if someone wanted something more than what came in WoW, they went to RQ.

The original WoW was interesting because it pushed the envelope for the RQ game system. It added superpowers, and science fiction, and a standard FRPG fantasy world (which was new to RQ). Today all that as been done with BRP. To move the needle any similar product would have to add in something that hasn't been done in BRP before. 

 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

So, actually, I’ll up the ante and state that I think BRP really does need to have supplemental support for it to remain in the public eye and succeed as a product.

You're moving the goal posts. There is a huge difference between mini-settings, and  supplemental support. Yes, it needs supplemental support, all RPGs do. But what it needs is adventures. That's what sells RPGs.

As you pointed out BRP already had a supplement with some mini-setting, it didn't move the needle. With settings it isn't about quantity but quality. One good setting will do better then five mediocre ones. And if a setting is good, it would be a waste to throw it away in a one off product. 

 

1 hour ago, TrippyHippy said:

A pacy release schedule of cheap mini settings has worked for FATE.  It could work very well for BRP too.

It as worked in conjunction with lots of fully fledged out setting that get support. Several things for Fate of Cthulhu. Even Atomic Robo gets some supplements. FATE does a lot more than cheap mini-settings. 

[TrippyHippy]

46 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

FATE is a lot lighter than BRP. You don't have pages of weapons tables in FATE. FATE does everything with a FUDGE die roll and the ladder. FATE also has (or at lead had) a free SRD. 

BRP has a 260+ page rule book (previously over 400 [pages). So not as light.

Now BRP once was very lite (16 oppages or so) and in that form it might work in 50 pages or less.

 

 

 

No, and neither does anybody else. But if it sold as well as any of the other games, it would have gotten support. 

 

Yes, but what does have to do withit being successful. Yeah, you might like it. I liked it too, and Jason Durall has noted that he likes it. But that didn't mean that it was a major success. 

It got no support. The Superoworlrd boxed set was essentially a new edition. 

Yes, enitrely speculation - your. You are the one speculating that it could have been more successful, if they had done something differently. But you have no evidence to support that view.

It faded because it got no support whatsoever.. Not only that but it's fourth setting, Viking World, was moved over to RQ3 instead. One of the big differences between GURPS/HERO and Worlds of Wonder is that the former two game systems were full fledged games, while WoW wasn't. BRP (at that time) was a trimmed down version of RuneQuest. So if someone wanted something more than what came in WoW, they went to RQ.

The original WoW was interesting because it pushed the envelope for the RQ game system. It added superpowers, and science fiction, and a standard FRPG fantasy world (which was new to RQ). Today all that as been done with BRP. To move the needle any similar product would have to add in something that hasn't been done in BRP before. 

 

You're moving the goal posts. There is a huge difference between mini-settings, and  supplemental support. Yes, it needs supplemental support, all RPGs do. But what it needs is adventures. That's what sells RPGs.

As you pointed out BRP already had a supplement with some mini-setting, it didn't move the needle. With settings it isn't about quantity but quality. One good setting will do better then five mediocre ones. And if a setting is good, it would be a waste to throw it away in a one off product. 

 

It as worked in conjunction with lots of fully fledged out setting that get support. Several things for Fate of Cthulhu. Even Atomic Robo gets some supplements. FATE does a lot more than cheap mini-settings. 

Fate has a different approach, but isn’t 'rules-lite’. Frankly, I don’t want this thread derailed about arguing about the Fate system anyway and it makes no real point to argue about the system when this is more a thread about marketing. This argument tangent is a distraction from the point of this thread.

If you don’t have sales figures then it is hard to make arguments based on assertions about relative sales. You are making arguments without evidence to back it up.

I’m not moving any goalpost at all. I am saying, clearly, that in order for BR:UGE to be successful, as a universal, generic systemic it needs supplemental support.

Short mini-settings can be produced a lot quicker that fully detailed big setting books and their relative speed of reading/mastery and potential low cost means they can fulfil a specific niche for the BRP fanbase to get into play quickly.

I am not arguing for mini-settings to cancel out the bigger setting supplements but I am saying that the fastest way to support the game is to get lots of mini-settings out there - and Fate provides a marketing model that is successful at doing this. Fate managed to keep its fan base happy by immediately supporting their game with lots of rapidly produced mini-settings first, way before it started producing more developed, longer setting supplements.

BR: UGE currently has barely anything supporting it yet and it needs to have something or its going to fade away too.

Edited January 2 by TrippyHippy

[Atgxtg]

13 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

Fate has a different approach, but isn’t 'rules-lite’. Frankly, I don’t want this thread derailed about arguing about the Fate system anyway and it makes no real point to argue about the system when this is more a thread about marketing. This argument tangent is a distraction from the point of this thread.

It not tangential when you have a page count. One nice thing about FATE is that a new player can download an SRD and play a limited version of the game.  Or even use FUDGE. 

13 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

If you don’t have sales figures then it is hard to make arguments based on assertions about relative sales. You are making arguments without evidence to back it up.

But there is evidence. The evidence that Worlds of Wonder did not become a major system, or get any support. While Greg admitted that he didn't always make the best business decisions, I'm sure he and the others at Chasoium would have support (or at least reprinted) Worlds of Wonder had it taken then gaming world by storm. It didn't.    

 

13 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

I’m not moving any goalpost at all. I am saying, clearly, that in order for BR:UGE to be successful, as a universal, generic systemic it needs supplemental support.

That's not the same as needing mini-settings. There are many types of "supplemental support".  Changing from mini-settings to "supplemental support" is moving the goalpost. It would be like my saying that people need steak to live, then backing it up by saying people need food or their starve to death.  Yes they need, food; no they do not need steak per say.

 

 

13 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

Short mini-settings can be produced a lot quicker that fully detailed big setting books and their relative speed of reading/mastery and potential low cost means they can fulfil a specific niche for the BRP fanbase to get into play quickly.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they will sell as well as more fleshed out setting or scenarios. 

13 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

I am not arguing for mini-settings to cancel out the bigger setting supplements but I am saying that the fastest way to support the game is to get lots of mini-settings out there - and Fate provides a marketing model that is successful at doing this. Fate managed to keep its fan base happy by immediately supporting their game with lots of rapidly produced mini-settings first, way before it started producing more developed, longer setting supplements.

No, your arguing (well arguing is probably too strong a word here. How about your in favor of?) that mini-setting are needed, and that they are the fastest way to support the game. I don't agree. I think the fastest way to support the game it to come up with one good setting (size variable) with lots of adventures. There are a lot more adventure supplements than mini-settings. 

13 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

BR: UGE currently has barely anything supporting it yet and it needs to have something or its going to fade away too.

Agreed. That is exactly;y what happened with the BGB. But to be fair, who are the ones who should be doing that? I mean there is nothing stopping any of us from making supplements for BRP, of any size. That not many have done so, as of yet, could mean that the system doesn't appeal to potential authors as much as some other systems, or that the ORC license hasn't been around long enough for much to be written. If you think about it, Mythras got most of the BGB's mini-settings, because of the old license.  ORC opens things up, but now a lot of the authors have migrated to Myhras, D100 Revolution and so on. 

 

 

[TrippyHippy]

27 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Quote

It not tangential when you have a page count. One nice thing about FATE is that a new player can download an SRD and play a limited version of the game.  Or even use FUDGE. 

It is tangential and I have asked you stop. 

Quote

But there is evidence. The evidence that Worlds of Wonder did not become a major system, or get any support. While Greg admitted that he didn't always make the best business decisions, I'm sure he and the others at Chasoium would have support (or at least reprinted) Worlds of Wonder had it taken then gaming world by storm. It didn't.    

That is an assumption without evidence. You are assuming that it wasn’t supported because of lack of sales, as opposed to the other way round say, and as we don’t actually know what the sales figures were there isn’t anything to back up that assertion. Chaosium may have just surmised that they wanted to focus on other games or didn’t really know how to go about supporting it. As pointed out, it never received ongoing supplemental support so it is pure speculation as to  how successful it could have been if it had.

Quote

That's not the same as needing mini-settings. There are many types of "supplemental support".  Changing from mini-settings to "supplemental support" is moving the goalpost. It would be like my saying that people need steak to live, then backing it up by saying people need food or their starve to death.  Yes they need, food; no they do not need steak per say.

I haven't shifted any goalposts and your argument here is being disingenuous. I am saying, perfectly consistently, that the game needs supplemental support and the use of mini-settings is the best way of supporting the game quickly and effectively. I have not been arguing that it is one thing or the other but mini-settings should be prioritised as they were effectively with Fate. 

Quote

Yes, but that doesn't mean they will sell as well as more fleshed out setting or scenarios. 

The sales of the supplements are secondary to the sales of the core rules. You will note that in the case of Fate, most of their mini-setting supplements were free or PWYW. They weren’t making money from the supplements, but from the increased sales of the core rules because it was perceived as a well supported line.

Quote

No, your arguing (well arguing is probably too strong a word here. How about your in favor of?) that mini-setting are needed, and that they are the fastest way to support the game. I don't agree. I think the fastest way to support the game it to come up with one good setting (size variable) with lots of adventures. There are a lot more adventure supplements than mini-settings. 

You seem to be implying that mini-settings can’t be good settings? That is an immediate point of contention. Long supplements do not necessarily make for better settings. In fact, if you are looking for something quick and easy to run, they can be a major turn-off. Indeed, much of my experience is that longer setting supplements often lead to criticisms of why they weren’t just released as stand-alone games. 

Quote

Agreed. That is exactly;y what happened with the BGB. But to be fair, who are the ones who should be doing that? I mean there is nothing stopping any of us from making supplements for BRP, of any size. That not many have done so, as of yet, could mean that the system doesn't appeal to potential authors as much as some other systems, or that the ORC license hasn't been around long enough for much to be written. If you think about it, Mythras got most of the BGB's mini-settings, because of the old license.  ORC opens things up, but now a lot of the authors have migrated to Myhras, D100 Revolution and so on.

My encouragement, to third party sources or Chaosium themselves is to support BRP in the best way possible by demonstrating the game's versatility. This means having a wide range of diverse settings to play - and the most effective way of doing this is get plenty of mini-settings quickly out, rather than spend years trying to develop major setting supplements which would likely get de-prioritised anyway for other game releases. Over time, I’d like to see a range of supplements - big and small, however it is a question of priorities for a new edition that has only just been released. 

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by TrippyHippy

[Atgxtg]

4 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

It is tangential and I have asked you stop.

You haven't asked me to do anything. You declared that it is tangential, and don;t want to talk about it.

6 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

That is an assumption without evidence.

No, it is a deduction drawn from the evidence of what happened. In case you faieled to notice Worlds of Wonder didn't stay in print for years, so at best it could only sell out it's print run.

6 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

You are assuming that it wasn’t supported because of lack of sales, as opposed to the other way round say,

I'm not assuming anything. I'm pointing out that Worlds of Wonder wasn't 1982 Game of the Year.  

35 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

 

We don't have the sales numbers for Callof Cthulhu either, but we can easily tell that it outsold Worlds of Wonder. What we do have is the reaction that it got at the time, the revies it got in the various magazine of the day, how many copies show up on the shelves (and left said shelves) at the time. 

6 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

Chaosium may have just surmised that they wanted to focus on other games

Then why go to the trouble and expense of making a printing the game in the first place? . No game company releases a game and then abandon if it is successful. Remember, that was before the days of desktop publishing and PDFs. Making it was a drain on their time and resources. If they wanted to focus on other games they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of making WoW in the first place. 

 

6 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

or didn’t really know how to go about supporting it.

An unlikely supposition since they went on to produce other RPGs that they did support. ANd if they didn't want to support WoW, why split off Superwolrd into it;s own line? 

6 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

 

As pointed out, it never received ongoing supplemental support

Which a hit game would have received. Every  RPG that Chaosium produced in the 1980 got at least one 

6 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

 

so it is pure speculation as to  how successful it could have been if it had

Exactly, but it's not pure speculation to say how successful it was. Because the past actually happened. In the real world, Chaosium didn't support Worlds of Wonder, and instead focused on other games, specifically Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon  and Pendragon, and made a deal with Avalon Hill to try and promote RuneQuest . They relased a Ringworld game, and All thier other games got multiple editions, including two versions of ElfQuest.  

Everything got more attention except Worlds of Wonder. That was reality. Any claim of how popular WoW might have been if it had gotten more support is the pure speculation. here. THat's all on you. It's like speculation on how things might have gone for RuneQuest if Chaosium didn't make the Avalon Hill deal. But the thing is the deal did happen. 

36 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

I haven't shifted any goalposts and your argument here is being disingenuous. I am saying, perfectly consistently, that the game needs supplemental support and the use of mini-settings is the best way of supporting the game quickly and effectively. I have not been arguing that it is one thing or the other but mini-settings should be prioritised as they were effectively with Fate. 

. You have shifted the goalposts. You title the thread:  

38 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

BRP needs mini-settings

Then when I challenged that you said: 

 

39 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

I’m not moving any goalpost at all. I am saying, clearly, that in order for BR:UGE to be successful, as a universal, generic systemic it needs supplemental support.

And that is moving the goalpost. 

You went from a specific statement about the need for mini-settings -which is debatable, to a statement about the need for supplemental support -which is not. 

42 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

The sales of the supplements are secondary to the sales of the core rules.

Yes. Generally speaking you have to have the rules to play the game. 

42 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

You will note that in the case of Fate, most of their mini-setting supplements were free or PWYW. They weren’t making money from the supplements, but from the increased sales of the core rules

Which doesn't mean that the mini settings were what was driving those sales.

42 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

because it was perceived as a well supported line.

 That's speculation on your part. We don't know why the sales increased. In fact, your own argument agianst you, you can't say that the sales did increase unless you have the sales figures, can you?

Personally I believe it sold, and that it did so because it was perceived as a good game. Does anybody buy an RPG because it is well supported, or do they buy it because they think/hope it's good.? 

I think support matter more for how long people keep playing a game, and what game the group in playing is what matters as far as sales to the other players in the group. It why practically everybody who played D&D regularly owned a copy.  It was what they were playing.

51 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

You seem to be implying that mini-settings can’t be good settings?

I'm not. Mini-setting can be very good. It's just a bit harder for them to be so, since if something is good there is a tendancy to make more of it.

51 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

That is an immediate point of contention. Long supplements do not necessarily make for better settings.

No contention there. Higher page count doesn't mean a better game. 

51 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

In fact, if you are looking for something quick and easy to run, they can be a major turn-off. Indeed, much of my experience is that longer setting supplements often lead to criticisms of why they weren’t just released as stand-alone games.

Which is exactly the direction that Chasoium was going in before the whole D&D OGL fiasco.

 

56 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

y encouragement, to third party sources or Chaosium themselves is to support BRP in the best way possible by demonstrating the game's versatility.

But it is an assumption on your part that "demonstrating the game's versatility" is e best way possible. And you doing so at a time where most of the Universal RPGs have been in decline or at best, treading water. 

56 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

This means having a wide range of diverse settings to play - and the most effective way of doing this is get plenty of mini-settings quickly out,

But there is no reason to believe that getting lots of mini-setting out there would help BRP. GURPS probably has the widest range of diverse setting to play, and these day it has a lot of short mini-supplements, but the days of impressing people with diverse settings is long past. All the major RPGs have multiple setting now.

56 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

rather than spend years trying to develop major setting supplements which would likely get de-prioritised anyway for other game releases.

Not if they are successful. If you look at the various RPG companies, once they have a successful game they stick with it, and prioritize it over a new unproven game. It's basic business. Once you have a product that people like, you don't prioritize something that they don't like. You prioritize what works for you. 

56 minutes ago, TrippyHippy said:

 

Over time, I’d like to see a range of supplements - big and small, however it is a question of priorities for a new edition that has only just been released. 

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean your priorities are the correct ones in this case. 

Now what I getting from this is that you personally like mini-setting, which is fine. But I'm saying that isn't necessarily a universal truth. Or even that it is universal to BRP players. It's not like there haven't been mini games for BRP in the past (Fantasy Paths anyone?).I';m not saying I'm opposed to Mini Setting either. IMO any decent supplement helps. 

What I am contesting is  the idea that BRP needs mini-settings. In fact, I doubt if mini setting will move the needle. I'm sorry if you don't like that idea, but you did ask what other people thought. 

[TrippyHippy]

OK. I’m ignoring any post from Atgxtg now.  I refuse to engage. 

If anybody else wants to post about it they can, but I am personally writing this thread off as derailed. 

[sladethesniper]

IMO, mini-settings are a difficult thing to do correctly. They are either too detailed in which case they are feel like chopped up normal settings, or they are too bare bones with no real info.

The "best" incarnation of mini-settings I have seen done are the ones for Everyday Heroes by Evil Genius Games... (using their wonky 5e hack). They have Highlander, Pacific Rim, Total Recall, Rambo, Universal Soldier, Escape from New York, The Crow, and King Kong Skull Island.

All of those could be better done (mechanically) in BRP, but those settings are A) iconic, B) developed enough to make a full campaign out of, and C) large enough to make new stories with new characters.

If someone were to take that same idea and apply it to BRP, that would be grrrrreat! but making something "kinda like X" but different enough to not be a copy is a tricky ask for a mini-setting.

I myself have worked on a bunch of different mini-settings for my group that I sprinkle in as needed (ex. including stuff like Highlander, GI Joe, Charlie's Angels, Charmed, Cats and Dogs, Constantine, Ghostbusters, Hellboy, John Woo films, etc.)

Basically, if the setting is "close enough" to the game world, you just need a few paragraphs detailing the thing and some NPCs. 

Building something "new" like Monster Hunter would require about a dozen pages or so, enough to lay out any unique bits for character creation, unique weapons, a timeline and whatnot. 

-STS

[NickMiddleton]

On 1/1/2024 at 9:42 AM, TrippyHippy said:

Maybe I could be pointed in the direction of some but as far as I am aware, there isn’t that many supplements available for this current iteration of BR:UGE.

It is early days still but I would like to make some sort of call out to third party creators or Chaosium itself, that what the game really needs is a bunch of short, creative mini settings - no more than 50 pages tops - that could be printed out from PDF files, maybe with a short adventure or two included. I’ve seen a few people suggesting they are working on settings, but what I am suspecting is this means larger setting books (200 pages or so). There is a place for this but short, cheap and quick stuff for one shots gets into the whole spirit of a universal system more I think. 

What do other people think?

I have always had a huge soft spot for the Call of Cthulhu adventure anthologies Strange Aeons - whilst they were were all (obviously) within a single rules / setting framework, they were distinctive stand alone adventures and  "settings" in a way... ...I was also a contributor to the BGB era BRP quick-start's "shorty" adventures - originally an idea of Dustin Wright's, inspired by the one page dungeon phenomena.

I have been noodling away at a hybrid of those two influences for BRP: UGE: a set of short, one shot scenarios with pre-generated characters; each set in its own distinctive setting and with its own particular sub set of options from BRP:UGE. Whether I get anywhere with it is another matter (role changed at work last year so job takes more of my time, and my health has been a bit shit last third of the year as well), but we shall see.

I have always thought that adventures are what an RPG systems needs. Not everyone uses them: but their existence helps build a sense that the game is supported, that engaging and committing to it is not striking out in to the wilderness; and I think it has an impact, even on those people and groups who don't themselves use anything or little of "official" published material.

So I think whatever happens with my own efforts, the basic idea is sound, and whether its really short little things like the original Shorties, setting / adventure anthologies such as TrippyHippy proposes or something in between (as I am working on slowly), stuff that supports BRP:UGE by showcasing the range and variety it can easily accommodate is worthwhile.

[sladethesniper]

32 minutes ago, NickMiddleton said:

I have always had a huge soft spot for the Call of Cthulhu adventure anthologies Strange Aeons 

Agreed. 

Something like that for BRP, say 4 to 5 mini-settings/adventures per book would be really great.

 

-STS

[g33k]

This looks like a great ORC product / product-line!

Rather than a bunch of "mini-settings" as such, I think a better target would be a collection of "Quickstart" modules:  an adventure with pre-gen PC's and *just* the relevant BRP rules to play that specific adventure and those specific pre-gen's.  Each in a particular genre, showing off the adaptability of BRP to the genre.

A fantasy-medieval game needs no guns or tech; a sci-fi game likely needs both tech & guns (but no magic); a superhero game needs Powers, etc etc etc.

Someone could leverage a substantive chunk of rules-writing several times -- the same minimalist core -- in all versions.  The adventure & pre-gens would be unique, and that extra portion of the rules (at a rough guess, about 1/3 of the product would be the same across all versions).

Another option might be to use such a suite of QS modules to showcase variants within the system -- do a swords-and-sandals QS with hit-locations, and a WWII "behind enemy lines" QS with Major Wounds, etc.

[g33k]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:42 AM, TrippyHippy said:

Maybe I could be pointed in the direction of some but as far as I am aware, there isn’t that many supplements available for this current iteration of BR:UGE.

It is early days still but I would like to make some sort of call out to third party creators or Chaosium itself ...

I believe Chaosium has said they have a Bestiary in the works, intended to serve a wide array of settings.  But if you're gonna "call out" the "third party creators" ... well Mr. Hippy, Imma call out you :  become a creator yourself!

Mostly, I think Chaosium is in wait-and-see mode.  The BGB edition wasn't a huge success in the market... not just judged against other generic systems (like GURPS and Hero), but judged (internally by Chaosium) on a dollars-and-sense basis of ROI / cost-benefit.  CoC is a bread-and-butter line for them, and the RQG release produced Chaosium's single largest day of sales in the company's history.  BRP-core has always struggled even to justify its own existence by turning a profit (let alone be worth taking the core dev-team off-track from working on profitable products).

nuBRP, released under the ORC license, is beginning to generate some 3rd-party products.  Chaosium is looking I think both at their own sales of the BRP:UGE core, but also looking at those other products, to see how soon they go Copper / Silver / Electrum / etc on DTRPG.

People bemoan the "lack of support" Chaosium has given to BRP (and Magic World).  I myself have "what if..." wonderings.  But industry-wide it's widely acknowledged that supplements sell MUCH worse than corebooks... so if a corebook isn't generating many sales, why on earth would the publisher write supplements for it??!?  So, I think, Chaosium sees BRP:UGE as needing a degree of "market truth" applied, before they devote any more resources to it.

Edited January 2 by g33k

[sladethesniper]

I can understand the lack of desire for making products that don't sell, economically speaking.

However, I am sure that there are a lot of creator/writers that do RPG stuff as a side gig or as a hobby and not necessarily for income.

I have made zero dollars from gaming and I've made one RPG game (Vhraeden), one RPG system that is basically a lot of rules options and house rules for BRP and Palladium (Platinum), one wargame/RPG capstone (Strife), one supplement for it (Coalition War Campaign) and 42 stand alone scenarios.

Has anyone played them? Probably not. 

Will I keep making RPG stuff centered on BRP (or at least D100 roll under)? Yeah.

My current project is to make ~100 game supplements (of 5 to 10 pages) for popular works in the Platinum/Strife format so that I'll have the stats for Conner McLeod and Charlie's Angels (the 1970's, 2000's and 2019 teams) in case they want to team up and fight Cobra Commander in Shadaloo.

Is it stupid? Yep, but when people make stuff for the community, it builds the community, just check out the downloads area here and all the goodness that is located therein.

So much mini-campaign fodder that probably doesn't rise to the level of money making, but easily crosses the threshold of fun and memorable.

-STS  

[g33k]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:30 AM, sladethesniper said:

I can understand the lack of desire for making products that don't sell, economically speaking.

However...
[much snippage]

So much mini-campaign fodder that probably doesn't rise to the level of money making, but easily crosses the threshold of fun and memorable.

No argument from me vs. any of that!  I myself have made & distributed some gaming materials (though I'm not nearly so prolific as you), and currently have a BRP:UGE driven RPG in development.  But these community-content & fannish productions are a very different thing than professional publishing.

I just want us all to be clear that Chaosium absolutely needs to be putting in real attention (as they do) to making sure that there's a market for books that they publish.  It's the company's lifeblood -- it's the salaries of MOB, Jeff, Rick, and others.  It's a big part of the income-stream for a bunch of the freelance creators (authors & artists) that Chaosium hires.  Remember that back in 2015, Chaosium was on the verge of collapse.  They had Kickstarted themselves to death, with financial obligations far beyond their combined revenue + savings.  The company only survived because of "The Return of the Great Old Ones" (Greg & Sandy) and their choice to merge with Moon Design; key to Chaosium's revitalization & ongoing success is that they (the MD crew) keep a keen eye on the realities of being a business... needing to pay those salaries & overhead costs.

The new BRP:UGE is a somewhat-risky investment on Chaosium's part.  The "Big Gold Book"  edition was selling so slowly that (before WotC's self-pwn OGLpocalypse) Chaosium had no imminent plans for such a revision (it was strictly a "one day.. (probably!)" wish-list project).  So the new edition really needs to hit the ground running (that is, we customers need to buy it!), if it's to see ongoing Chaosium support.

 

[girtablilu]

Personally, I think it's a great idea.  I like the way OneDice RPG (from Cakebread & Walton) does this.  They have small size books of 80-120pp for various settings/genres:  Fantasy, Cyberpunk, Horror, WWI, WWII, Space, Pulp, Spies, etc.  Each book covers the history and themes of the setting and has lists of weapons, equipment, monsters, etc.  They were also pretty cheap: about $8 for PDF and $13 for print copy with PDF.  Aside from the lists, they're generic enough that I still use the basic information in them.  A set like these for BRP is something I'd love to have.  If me brain still worked🤪, I'd write them myself. 

[AndreJarosch]

33 minutes ago, girtablilu said:

Personally, I think it's a great idea.  I like the way OneDice RPG (from Cakebread & Walton) does this.  They have small size books of 80-120pp for various settings/genres:  Fantasy, Cyberpunk, Horror, WWI, WWII, Space, Pulp, Spies, etc.  Each book covers the history and themes of the setting and has lists of weapons, equipment, monsters, etc.  They were also pretty cheap: about $8 for PDF and $13 for print copy with PDF.  Aside from the lists, they're generic enough that I still use the basic information in them.  A set like these for BRP is something I'd love to have.  If me brain still worked🤪, I'd write them myself. 

Cthulhu Reborn does the same with their "Cthulhu Eternal" RPG SRDs. 

[Andy Bartlett]

Everywhen, the 'generic' system based on Barbarians of Lemuria, has a bunch of 'setting books' allowing it to be used for 1980s/90s anime cyberpunk, weird Wild West, retro Cold War sci fi, modern military adventures, and so on. They're all pretty good, and while the included adventure is good for a couple of sessions, the additions/modifications to the rules in Everywhen (the equivalent to the BR:UGE book) are good for running extended games in those settings/genres.

[Darrin Kelley]

I tried Fate for a lot of years. Even steered people toward making their own games with it. But for some reason, I just never personallyclicked with Fate. Regardless of buying a ton of books for it.

 

My next stop on my search for a system that appealed to me is BRP. So far, I haven't ha any problems with it.