Lunar Magic in The Lunar Way

[Squaredeal Sten]

Reading The Lunar Way, one of the most important things I see is in the Red goddess chapter, pages 123-125, "Lunar magic".  This is going to be very useful to GMs running Lunar related adventures.  Ler me just whet your intrerest here:

A. Upon initiation in the cult of the Red Goddess, the initiate gains starting % in each of the Lunar magic skills, essentially sorcery skills that relate to spirit magic.  and they may train for more %.  Free INT is required just as in the sorcery rules, and each point of Free INT enables the use of a point of one of those skills.

B. Those skills are Amplify, combine, distance, prolong.  As i read p.124, three of the four affect sprit magic only, but they enable increases in effect, duration, and range.  There is a list of specific amplify effects for specific spirit spells on p.124. 

As a first example, with 2 points of Amplify, the Speedart spell could be changed from its usual spirit magic effects ( adding 15% to hit and +3 damage), to +25% to hit and +5 damage .  It would cost a total of 3MPs, but it would pretty reliably break through plate armor and hit like a bullet  With a composite bow and a damage roll of 8, you  do 1D8+6 or a max of 14 without rolling a special. 

As a second example, with 2 points of amplify plus 2 points of distance, for six MPs you can cast  a Demoralize spell that will decrease a victim with 90% attack skill to a 35%, and do this 150 meters away.

I am sure i have not yet figured out all the possible applications and combinations here.  The Tribe will be coming up with new ones for years..

Edited April 22 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing/ capitalization.

[Geoff R Evil]

jeez, super powered speeddarts….undermining the basic premise that to do serious damage versus tough foes means stepping up close and personal, means changing the nature of foes completely.
 

For the red goddess’s sake don’t tell the Eurmali archer in my game, he is already too much of a group saviour that never stops letting them know.  
 

This feels like one way to make lunar seriously difficult enemies…well at least if they train in magic. But in a way I like the moon rune link to add strength to their arm and make them fearsome. Things just got tough for my PCs….not that any GM cannot make any monster tough if they want but this is an interesting twist.

[metcalph]

What's the Lunar Magic skill that affects more than just spirit magic?

On the specific examples, in the old GoG rules Speedart with 2 points amp would have been +10% to hit and +2 damage.  With 3 that went to 15% and +3 damage.  Demoralize is unchanged as far as I can see.  

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What's the Lunar Magic skill that affects more than just spirit magic?

On the specific examples, in the old GoG rules Speedart with 2 points amp would have been +10% to hit and +2 damage.  With 3 that went to 15% and +3 damage.  Demoralize is unchanged as far as I can see.  

 

At least in the Red Goddess section that I quoted, it's just to affect spirit magic.  But the Irripi Ontor section has sorcery, and I haven't yet studied that enough to say. and I never was a sorcery expert based on the RQG book.  

However the phases of the moon will affect MP costs of the sorcery spells, that is clear.  So during the full moon Lunar sorcery is going to be cheap.

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

However the phases of the moon will affect MP costs of the sorcery spells, that is clear.  So during the full moon Lunar sorcery is going to be cheap.

This is a big change from even Heroquest: Glorantha. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

What's the Lunar Magic skill that affects more than just spirit magic?

On the specific examples, in the old GoG rules Speedart with 2 points amp would have been +10% to hit and +2 damage.  With 3 that went to 15% and +3 damage.  Demoralize is unchanged as far as I can see.  

 

That particular section is just boosts to spirit magic.  Except that the Combine skill is not clearly limited to spirit magic. 

As far as Demoralize goes, the "amplify effects" table on p.124 days each point of amplify decreases the victim's attack by 5%.  So where the ordinary Demoralize would reduce the 90% skill to 45%, in the example it is now reduced to 35%.

Of course with more MPS you could reduce a less skilled target's attack % to zero, e.g.start at 50%, normally reduce to 25%,  and 5 more MPs gives you 0% skill. 

 

The Irripi Ontor section, is where Lunar sorcery shows up.  Pages 82-85.  So far I am underwhelmed, but I am no sorcery expert, therefore if someone else can explain the coolness of it please correct me.

- Commune with Planet and Discern Constellation give a temporaty boost to one or several rune affinities.  This does  iook as if  it just boosts % to cast at a fairly high cost.

Moonfire is a nice area effect sorcery but will need a lot of MPs to take out armored troops.

The Red Moon section (pages 19-24) does have an interesting thing: The phase of the moon is different depending on where you stand:  In Dragon pass, Wildday is the full moon day.  But in First Blessed Windsday is the Full Moon day.  That will trip players up if they rely on the generic calendar.

 

 

 

Edited April 23 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, capitalizatiom etc

[Mark Mohrfield]

29 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The Red Moon section (pages 19-24) does have an interesting thing: The phase of the moon is different depending on where you stand:  In Dragon pass, Wildday is the full moon day.  But in First Blessed Windsday is the Full Moon day.  That will trip players up if they rely on the generic calendar.

This has always been the case.

[Jens]

This handy animated GIF shows the Red Moon's rotation, and the different phases for different regions. Not sure if anyone has compiled a complete set of phases per day outside of Dragon Pass.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

What's the Lunar Magic skill that affects more than just spirit magic?

The Lunar magic of the Red Goddess only affects spirit magic. (It's the same skills that were in the old RQ3 Gods of Glorantha book.)

Irrippi Ontor does have sorcery - largely aligned with the Moon, Fire, and Truth Runes (and tied in well to the heavenly bodies).

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Jens said:

This handy animated GIF shows the Red Moon's rotation, and the different phases for different regions. Not sure if anyone has compiled a complete set of phases per day outside of Dragon Pass.

OK, I believe it but I have never seen a reference for it, nor up to now any information about the angle between a line through the red moon's poles and the plane defined by the surface of Glorantha. 

I would really like to see a canon explanation of Gloranthsn astronomy in general.  This is not the first time I have said that.

.

[Jens]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I would really like to see a canon explanation of Gloranthsn astronomy in general.

I can’t speak about astronomy in general, but the Red Moon is straightforward enough. She floats in the Middle Air, 3,000km above The Crater (although she appears larger and closer the more you approach). She slowly rotates, taking one week to complete her cycle, showing different phases depending where in Genertela you’re observing her from https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-size-of-the-red-moon/ .

More about cosmology here https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/understanding-gloranthan-cosmology/ , and the sun and the sky here https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lightfore-and-the-sun/

Edited April 23 by Jens

[Mameluco]

I must confess, I'm a bit disappointed the Lunar Magic is just a reprint of the 3e rules. I was expecting a new perspective like what Chaosium did for the sorcery rules in RQG. I'm going to buy the book, of course, but it seems like a missing opportunity to me.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Jens said:

This handy animated GIF shows the Red Moon's rotation, and the different phases for different regions. 

Here's the link to the big version I did: Moon Phases Animation (2012)

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I would really like to see a canon explanation of Gloranthan astronomy in general.  This is not the first time I have said that.

I understand Jeff had someone talented redraw the Sky Dome diagrams from pages 67-71 of my free Manifesto for the Solar Cults book. They should help you with back-and-forth motions, different day lengths and the like. I had to look very carefully at this sort of thing when I programmed my old Ephemeris, but that was a quarter-century ago and only @David Scott knows if it's possible to find a working version these days.

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I had to look very carefully at this sort of thing when I programmed my old Ephemeris, but that was a quarter-century ago and only @David Scott knows if it's possible to find a working version these days.

Ephemeris works fine - here it is a few minutes ago running with CheerpJ plugin in Chrome. See The Movable Ephemeris and the Gloranthan Sky (1997).

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Mameluco said:

I must confess, I'm a bit disappointed the Lunar Magic is just a reprint of the 3e rules. I was expecting a new perspective like what Chaosium did for the sorcery rules in RQG. I'm going to buy the book, of course, but it seems like a missing opportunity to me.

Sounds like what's going through my head... A couple of number changes, but essentially another C&P from... 40 years ago?

 

However, I do get that there's the need to introduce this to the new fanbase, and so old grognards aren't the main priority to write for.

[AndreJarosch]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sounds like what's going through my head... A couple of number changes, but essentially another C&P from... 40 years ago?

 

However, I do get that there's the need to introduce this to the new fanbase, and so old grognards aren't the main priority to write for.

If it isn´t broken: Don´t fix it!

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Upon initiation in the cult of the Red Goddess

For those not aware, becoming an initiate of Red Goddess requires not only illumination, but a priest or lord of a Lunar cult, then pass a test and gain a Chaos taint at 20%. If I recall correctly, we've only had one NPC stated up as an initiate (Maculus in Strangers in Prax).

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am sure i have not yet figured out all the possible applications and combinations here.  The Tribe will be coming up with new ones for years..

I suspect Adventurers and NPCs with Lunar Sorcery will be few and far between. 

[David Scott]

43 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

If it isn't broken: Don't fix it!

I'm looking forward to this. My old Avalon hill box (1985), disintegrated years ago and the paper covered books of the contents are in very bad shape with use. So even a reprint would have been welcome. If the rest of the volumes come out by the end of next year, it will be a very welcome 40 year update. 

[Jens]

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I suspect Adventurers and NPCs with Lunar Sorcery will be few and far between. 

Lunar Sorcerers (via Irripi Ontor) are likely more common than Lunar Sorcery (via the Red Goddess). 

[David Scott]

14 minutes ago, Jens said:

Lunar Sorcerers (via Irripi Ontor) are likely more common than Lunar Sorcery (via the Red Goddess). 

Yes, there are about:

• 8k Red Goddess initiates (see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/cult-demographics-for-the-lunar-heartlands/)
• 40k Irippi Ontor initiates (https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/).
• 200 Irippi Ontor initiates (0.5%) will be part of that 8k

[Mameluco]

21 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

If it isn´t broken: Don´t fix it!

Until I see the rules myself I cannot give an informed opinion, but the solution seems... inelegant, for a better word. Chaosium removed the sorcery skills and replace them with techniques and runes, so they thought there were a level of brokeness in their original approach. Also, the skill bloat in the cults books is something has been raised before.

[David Scott]

26 minutes ago, Mameluco said:

Also, the skill bloat in the cults books is something has been raised before.

Out of interest - where?

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Mameluco said:

Until I see the rules myself I cannot give an informed opinion, but the solution seems... inelegant, for a better word. Chaosium removed the sorcery skills and replace them with techniques and runes, so they thought there were a level of brokeness in their original approach. 

On a game design note, sorcerers still have separate skills for each spell making skills for intensity etc. overly needless.  For Red Goddess magic, the base for *all* spirit magic is POWx5% so having separate skills for prolong, combine etc doesn't seem that much of a burden to me. 

Edited April 24 by metcalph

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 4/23/2024 at 9:45 AM, Mameluco said:

I must confess, I'm a bit disappointed the Lunar Magic is just a reprint of the 3e rules. I was expecting a new perspective like what Chaosium did for the sorcery rules in RQG. I'm going to buy the book, of course, but it seems like a missing opportunity to me.

I have not any issue with that. I had an issue with the previous version, where lunar magic was "just" sorcery technics applied on spirit magic. Now, at least there is a difference 🙂

However something always disturbs me : there are specific rules or content on very specific characters (lunar initiate ... already illuminate, already priest / runelord; but also path of immanent mastery, comb and braid, etc...)

Rules or content means efforts for very specific cases. And there is one case... one case which is the promise of the games names and period. Runequest, Herowar

So I m happy that there was no change, no effort, with the lunar magic. At least, it saves time/workload on something I expect for more than 3 decades !

 

Note than deeper work on dragon pass, sorcery etc... is a good thing in my opinion. Just the big issue with the game is (imo) there are too many scopes to cover properly and satisfy every gloranthomaniac.

So if the strategy becomes "less efforts on very specific cases, more efforts on the heart of the concept (we play hero) and the heart of the world (DP + peloria) " I can only applause.

 

Just let JC makes a lot of exceptional work on strange and far lands, weird monsters and very local (sub)cults instead of fixing the missing part of the heart