Magic for western culture

[hkokko]

Creating background for a character from western culture, say Malki Coast in Umathela or just any area. I have some HW system homeland etc stuff but has anyone done this for D100 (RQ/RQG). Especially interested in the magic spells and magic available / not available to the various castes. Which books or sources should I look for or do I need to go HW/RQ conversion route...

[Nick Brooke]

As I understand it, the plan in RQG is that most Western characters will join cults and get Rune magic and spirit magic pretty much the same way everyone else does. Those cults will be from a list that's appropriate to their caste. Only the Zzaburi caste uses Sorcery, and are forbidden to join other cults. Other castes don't learn Sorcery.

We haven't had any official publications telling us which castes join which cults, or what differences (if any) there are between Western and Central Genertelan worship, but pretty obviously you'll see Dronari peasants worshipping Earth and Grain goddesses and the Crafting, Ploughing and City gods; Horali soldiers worshipping various warrior cults (Humakt!); Talari rulers worshipping (among many others) Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and their own ancestors.

If I had a player who wanted their adventurer to be a Western knight, I'd tell them to run their adventurer as a Humakti (most likely) and lean into the cultural differences. (And if I had a player who wanted their adventurer to be a Western sorcerer, I'd sack them and recruit a better player.)

To get with the zeitgeist, stay away from the useful terms found throughout our earlier sources (such as Knights, Bishops, Churches, etc.), or some of the cool kids who came in late or are enthusiastic early adopters of unsupported notions will be sarcastic (e.g: "Eww, it might have Bishop cooties!"). But make sure you reference "Bormandy" early and often: it's canonical!

[metcalph]

52 minutes ago, hkokko said:

Creating background for a character from western culture, say Malki Coast in Umathela or just any area. I have some HW system homeland etc stuff but has anyone done this for D100 (RQ/RQG). Especially interested in the magic spells and magic available / not available to the various castes. Which books or sources should I look for or do I need to go HW/RQ conversion route...

I made a tentative stab at what Caste Magic might be like for NPCs here

I haven't seen anybody else's ideas to date.

Malkioni laity will have spirit and rune magics.  The lower castes have less access to rune magics than the Orlanthi and the Pelorians because the Wizards collect much of the magic points offered in worship, bumping the effective temple sizes down a notch or two (ie temples that would be major in congregation size would effectively be minor temples).  The Nobles are unaffected by this because the Wizards require their consent to collect the worship for their spells.

SESHNELA:

Farmer Gods:  Gustbrain, Seshna (Grain Goddess), Dormal etc

Warrior Gods: Hrestol*, Humakt, Arkat, Telmor, Basmol etc.

Wizard Gods: The Invisible God.

Noble Gods: Orlanth/Aerlit, Ehilm, Magasta, Seshna (Grain Goddess etc), Malkion the Old (Daka Fal), Hrestol*, Arkat*

Priestly offices are reserved for the Nobility.

*Yes, I know the Rokari hate Hrestol and Arkat.  Among the warriors, they are untrustworthy radicals while among the nobility, they are transgressors protected by their status.

LOSKALM:

Common Gods: Gustbran, Dormal, Malkion the Old etc.

Guardians:  Hrestol, Humakt, Orlanth/Aerlit, Ehilm.

Officially only Malkioni Gods are supposed to be worshipped and their cults are constrained as not to inhibit communion with the Hidden Mover.

SAFELSTER:

Towards the west, it resembles Seshnela but with greater tolerance for Arkat and Hrestol.  Towards the east, they have no caste with their Wizards indistinguishable from Lhankor Mhy.  Arkat is the ruling god but open only to promising candidates.  Cacodemon is worshipped by the Boristi Nobility.

CARMANIANS:

Farmer:  Gustbran, Pela etc.

Warrior: Yanafal Tarnils, Seven Mothers, Humakt etc.

Wizard Gods: Ganesataurus, Malakinus, Idovanus

Nobles:  Seven Mothers, Argan Argar, Yelmalio.

UMATHELA:

I think the Sedaplists send their kids to the local wizard school for a couple of years to learn meditation and the like.They are expected to be celibate and live on charity.  After the two years are up, they return to their old lives, marry etc.  Promising candidates at the wizard school are asked to remain behind and taught to become proper Wizards.  Their Caste Gods are similar to the Seshnelans but with a Pamaltelan twist.  I think the nobles worship a variation of Pamalt that is friendly to the elves while everybody else worships the Lightbringers with a couple of differences (Eurmal is called Jogrampur etc)

AEOLIANS:

The Aeolians worship the Lightbringers and the thirteen headed God.  It's been debated at length in the Heortland threads but no clear conclusion has been made.

VALKARIANS:

The locals worship the parlothi and the parondpara in a caste appropiate way with the Magic Men worshipping Martalak.

EDIT: The biggest difference from the old sources is the lack of a church.  Instead the Wizards being argumentative sods, follow their own philosophies and studies.  The singular exceptions are the big three of Loskalm, Seshnela and Safelster.

Loskalm sees it as a big deal to contact the Hidden Mover so they have seized control of the government and marshalled their resources to ensuring that the population does so whether they want to or not.  However the old ways are no longer effective and the nerfing of their cults is hampering them.

Seshnela is haunted by the God Learner disaster and the Wizards there take great steps to ensure they do not fall into the same error.  They have withdrawn from the most part of interfering with society (leaving that up to the nobles) and instead spend their time casting and creating Big Spells.

Ralios is consumed by the evils of Gbaji and has directed its efforts to hunting down any manifestation of it.  Gbaji usually takes the form of the Arkati at the next city over which is why Safelster is so fragmented.

 

Edited August 20 by metcalph

[metcalph]

I should also mention that according to Jeff (this was a few years back now) the Loskalmi do practical God-Learning.  They go on heroquests loaded up with sorcery to help them win (and use medisception to ensure they don't fall into the error of the God Learners).  How this works depends on the rules but currently I think the Guardians at the lowest level of this have access to rune magics on their own behalf. 

[davecake]

 

On 8/20/2024 at 7:01 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Other castes don't learn Sorcery.

Except in the various sects in which they do, of course. A Loskalmi Man of All is such a classic heroic protagonist it would seem perverse to try to exclude them as potential PCs. 

I'd hate to see a way of writing up Malkioni society and sorcery so the Rokari work as PCs, we end up making Loskalmi Men of All impractical as PCs, because they seem far more interesting in pretty much every way. 

On 8/20/2024 at 7:01 PM, Nick Brooke said:

pretty obviously you'll see Dronari peasants worshipping Earth and Grain goddesses and the Crafting, Ploughing and City gods; Horali soldiers worshipping various warrior cults (Humakt!);

I'm not sure the version of these cults that the Horali especially worship are always the same as the standard versions in the cults books so far (just as spirit cult versions are not, I think the gods as worshipped by warrior societies may be a bit limited, though compensated for by caste abilities). But the old material about the Western soldiers has always indicated that they learnt fighting skills from the gods (Humakt teaches the Sword, Wachaza the Trident, Babeestor Gor the Axe etc). 

On 8/20/2024 at 7:01 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Talari rulers worshipping (among many others) Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and their own ancestors.

If the Talars end up having the only Lhankor Mhy Sages who are forbidden to use sorcery that would  be ironic, wouldn't it?

The links between the Seshnelan nobility and Issaries are of course known for a long time. But who do the Talar Rokari leaders, the first sons etc, worship? They worshipped their heroic ancestors in the first age, but who under the Rokari?

On 8/20/2024 at 7:01 PM, Nick Brooke said:

If I had a player who wanted their adventurer to be a Western knight, I'd tell them to run their adventurer as a Humakti (most likely) and lean into the cultural differences.

A Horali sure, but that's not a knight. 

They should at least have the option to revered Hrestol. and aspire to lead, etc. Again, how many young men who are aspiring to be a lord like the head of their household are the protagonists of great works literature, both from recent literature and the classics? 

On 8/20/2024 at 7:01 PM, Nick Brooke said:

(And if I had a player who wanted their adventurer to be a Western sorcerer, I'd sack them and recruit a better player.)

A more compliant, or less awkward player, perhaps. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a Western sorcerer. Monks or scholars have been classic protagonists, both in recent fantasy literature and classic world literature, magicians who work with care and thoughtfulness sound a particularly good example of the type for gaming purposes.  Sure, if a player wants to play a Western sorcerer when the rest of the PCs are Orlanthi shepherds, it might be a problem - but a player who wants to play a Western sorcerer when there are other Westerners in the game seems unproblematic to me. 

And nothing wrong with someone who wants to play a Western knight because because they've heard the Hrestol stories and think they sound inspiring sounds like the best sort of player to me! Maybe by reading your fine publications on the history of Malkionism! 

 

[davecake]

On 8/21/2024 at 3:58 AM, metcalph said:

I should also mention that according to Jeff (this was a few years back now) the Loskalmi do practical God-Learning.  They go on heroquests loaded up with sorcery to help them win (and use medisception to ensure they don't fall into the error of the God Learners).  How this works depends on the rules but currently I think the Guardians at the lowest level of this have access to rune magics on their own behalf. 

I agree, though I think this is more the sort of thing Men Of All are training for. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I wonder if some of issues here are because of the baked-in awkwardness of having a noble caste and a warrior caste that are separate (which are in turn ALSO separate from the priestly caste).

[Joerg]

26 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I wonder if some of issues here are because of the baked-in awkwardness of having a noble caste and a warrior caste that are separate (which are in turn ALSO separate from the priestly caste).

The Malkioni have a soldier caste, not a warrior caste.

Other than with the Rokari, the Malkioni noble caste has no business seeking personal combat, although they are supposed to lead armies. The combination resulted from the high number of Men-of-All among the Talar caste.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Malkioni have a soldier caste, not a warrior caste.

Other than with the Rokari, the Malkioni noble caste has no business seeking personal combat, although they are supposed to lead armies. The combination resulted from the high number of Men-of-All among the Talar caste.

Even worse, the horali really are dead weight, unless their population is tiny.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

the horali really are dead weight, unless their population is tiny.

Depends on what threats there are. In Ralios, you've got barbarian kingdoms, two separate Uz centers, wild dragonewts, werewolves, and a major elf forest, and now the incursion of the Kingdom of Seshnela.

In Fronela, Loskalm was relatively secure for a century+ but now must address the Kingdom of War, the Kingdom of Jonatela, two elf forests, and the depredations of the Ygg Island pirates. 

Perhaps quieter in Seshnela, but the King seems bent on conquest first in Nolos/Pasos and then into Ralios. There's dragonewts, beastmen, and elves. Perhaps disputes were getting channeled inward as a consequence so the King has determined that conquest is more likely to keep the nobles engaged.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Depends on what threats there are. In Ralios, you've got barbarian kingdoms, two separate Uz centers, wild dragonewts, werewolves, and a major elf forest, and now the incursion of the Kingdom of Seshnela.

In Fronela, Loskalm was relatively secure for a century+ but now must address the Kingdom of War, the Kingdom of Jonatela, two elf forests, and the depredations of the Ygg Island pirates. 

Perhaps quieter in Seshnela, but the King seems bent on conquest first in Nolos/Pasos and then into Ralios. There's dragonewts, beastmen, and elves. Perhaps disputes were getting channeled inward as a consequence so the King has determined that conquest is more likely to keep the nobles engaged.

I just doubt the demographics make sense either way, especially since we can't just take into account the professional Horali soldiery themselves, but their entire families. What are we talking? 10% of the population? 5%? That's a lot of people who apparently aren't allowed to grow food or do common labor. (I think the solution is that people constantly break caste laws and good Horali families have their garden plots and goose flocks and little orchards of their own just like everyone else, and they barter a bit here and there and so forth. Except maybe Dad, and/or the eldest son. That would be unseemly, you see. Wives, mothers, the retired and the young to the rescue.)

HOWEVER, my main point was more that we have this situation where RPers are looking for a pseudo-Arthurian knightly fantasy, while the Rokari (and other denominations) Malkioni don't necessarily map onto this idea, with their martial and noble castes being separate, as opposed to united, as in most "feudal" societies of real life. Now, granted, the Rokari seem to be pretty into the idea of Talars riding around with big maces bonking stuff on the head and attending tournaments, so maybe it works better than I'd thought. But really, ideally, good Talars should be adjudicating legal disputes, arranging trade deals and sponsoring infrastructure and prestige projects, not enganging in heroic combat. The soldiery, instead, doesn't really have land ownership and high titles to aspire to, and seemingly little individual agency in terms of engaging in adventurism, so also make for potentially poor hero-journeyers, being more into securing reliable noble patronage. This is more the "inbuilt caste awkwardness" I'm talking about. A Horali PC is likely to be less like a Knight-Errant and more like a Landsknecht or Condottiero, imho. 

Edited August 25 by Sir_Godspeed

[Richard S.]

Some of my personal (and very incomplete) rules:

Rokari - Talars, horali, and dronars characters begin play as initiates of one of the four caste subcults of the Invisible God, which provides no Rune or spirit magic but allows them to be affected by "Brithini Enchantments" (name pending) so long as they haven't violated the laws of the caste they initiated to. Most Brithini Enchantments are long-term, area-of-effect sorcery spells centered on the Invisible God's temples and maintained at the weekly ceremonies, and benefit all lawful Malkioni within range. If desired, characters may sacrifice additional POW during character creation to initiate to and gain Rune points and spells from another cult. The gamemaster should determine which cults are available to join, based on the area of play and the opinion of its local talar, but generally these will be no more than local spirit cults centered on the wyter of the character's house, regiment, or guild. Talar, horali, and dronars still begin with 5 points of spirit magic as normal, regardless of whether or not they're initiated to another cult - it's assumed they learned it as lay members. Zzaburi only learn and use sorcery.

New Hrestoli - All characters begin play as initiates of the Invisible God and as part of the worker caste unless they qualify for a higher caste, in which case they can begin as a member of it. They must also meet the qualifications for all lower castes if they want to be a man-of-all, wizard, or ruler (i.e. to begin play as a wizard they must also qualify for the soldier and man-of-all castes). New Hrestoli do not use Brithini Enchantments, but they still expect the restrictions of the current caste to be followed. All New Hrestoli may learn sorcery and may join the cults of the Ascended Masters to gain Rune magic, but they're not allowed to learn spirit magic.

Henotheists - Henotheists are a broad category, but in general they are initiates first of a normal Rune cult and only lay members of the Invisible God. This means they cannot benefit from Brithini Enchantments and are not obligated to follow caste restrictions, though many still do out of personal belief or community pressure.

The Hrestol Cult - initiates of Hrestol do not lose the benefits of Brithini Enchantments by violating caste restrictions, so long as they follow the cult's code of honor.

Demographics [EDITED] - Approximately 2% of Malkioni will be talars, 3% will be zzaburi, 5% horali, and 90% dronars. Rural areas will have more dronars and more equal amounts of the other castes, while cities will be more skewed to the upper castes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brithini Enchantments are basically my personal replacement for the previewed "Rightness" rules and caste magic. Maybe my opinion will change once the full rules come out, but currently I'm a little wary about there being non-human-originated magical benefits for obeying caste, which seems to fly in the face of Malkioni humanism.

Edited August 26 by Richard S.

[metcalph]

I think arguments about what caste plays in society is largely informed by the silly setup described for Bormandy in the old Genertela boxed set.  I say silly because it doesn't even make sense as a medieval society - a warrior family remaining loyal to the same noble house for over a thousand years? Yeah right. 

For the Seshnegi, I think an unspoken contradiction in their society is the difference between the Wizards as the source of legal authority and the Nobility as the source of *real* authority.  The Nobles are willing to adhere to the concept of rightness and the like in return for Wizard magics but as matters stand, what they says goes.

For example I think that ties of kinship play a great part in helping the Nobility run Seshnela.  Not in the traditional sense of marriages of convience but in the relations between castes.  If the Noble has a relation with a Malkioni of lower caste (who are they to say no?), any offspring would belong to the lower caste.  However the Noble could still call upon the ties of kinship to get that person or their spouse in positions of secondary leadership (ie God Talker etc) within their fief.    

Hence I think a Malkioni fief would look more like this: 

One large extended family, whose members fulfil all the leadership functions of the commons, military and service.  Heading the fief is the Lord.  He worships one of the husbands of Seshna Likita.  He has final say in the appointments within the fief although usually relies on the advice of his family.  Beneath him are several noble offices,

The Master of Arms commands the martial forces, which includes the horals and the auxillaries.  He also has a contingent of family calavlrys who are always looking for a fight.

The Horals are divided into several companies: at least one mounted and the others on foot.  They are divided among different orders (Basmoli, Telmori etc).  The Mounted Horals fight with the Master of Arms and family in battle.  Each compnay has their own officer responsible for troop discipline.

The Auxillaries are commoners fighting as light infantry using bows slings etc.  They are forbidden to kill higher-ups directly but death by slingshot or arrow (but not bolts) are permitted on the grounds that any resulting death is due to fortune (the Byzantines used similar moral reasoning).  Some auxillaries may be professional full time warriors.

The Master of Rituals is the head priest in charge of worship of the Gods and other Ancestors.  He is responsible for religious discipline.  All the priestly offices can only be held by the nobility, although the God-talkers can be of any caste and do most of the work. 

The Master of Lore is in charge of the local Wizards.  He gives orders as to what magical projects they may carry out and what magical jobs need doing.  Discipline is much looser than for other castes but he can starve them of access to magic points and stipends from the population if they get out of hand.  Most of the wizards are scribes.  Although  I feel any Malkioni can read or write if taught, only those documents read or written by a member of the Wizard caste has legal authority.    

The Masters of the House are the younger nobles in charge of a villa or palace.  They are responsible for the upkeep of the residence for the family and have delegated authority from the various masters for commanding the military and the wizards.  If they do well, they can hope to acquire more important positions like having a rule of a town or city.  

 

 

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Demographics - Approximately 2% of any given Malkioni community will be talars, 3% will be zzaburi, 5% horali, and 90% dronars.

 

As I push everything into being about Maniria, I did some quick math on this. The Holy City of Kaxtorplose, a rather isolated enclave of Malkioni with roughly 1,000 people, would break down as...

• 900 Dronars
• 50 Horali
• 30 Zzaburi
• 20 Talari

That gets interesting to me.  Specifically, I'm unsure if its sustainable for a small Malkioni community like that to have castes that are guaranteed by bloodline.

[Nevermet]

Also... anyone have a guess how working toward being a Knight / Man-of-All would work, either in terms of the process or the eventual benefits?

Someone on a Discord server suggested there's a parallel between Illumination's potential to allow people to leave cults without repraisals, and someone able to somehow transcend caste-specific definitions of rightness, though I'm unsure how that'd work mechanically.

Edited August 26 by Nevermet

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

As I push everything into being about Maniria, I did some quick math on this. The Holy City of Kaxtorplose, a rather isolated enclave of Malkioni with roughly 1,000 people, would break down as...

• 900 Dronars
• 50 Horali
• 30 Zzaburi
• 20 Talari

That gets interesting to me.  Specifically, I'm unsure if its sustainable for a small Malkioni community like that to have castes that are guaranteed by bloodline.

Yeah it does break down a bit on the smaller scale. "Any given Malkioni community" was a bit of a stupidly broad phrase for me to use, sorry. However I think your observation about sustainability is probably exactly what led the darkness-era Brithini settlers to abandon their old ways - they just didn't have the numbers to keep things going like they always had. I think nowadays my percentages are probably roughly true on the kingdom and provincial scale, but as you zoom in talars, horali, and zzaburi will concentrate in the cities. Maybe something like 60-70 dronars for every talar in rural areas, while urban populations could be closer to 20-30 dronars per. Just spitballing here, I'm no sociologist.

On a related note, I think that Old Hrestolism probably had new adults test into one of the four castes rather than it being assigned only by birth (though talar kids probably did have an advantage at becoming talars themselves). I imagine that a lot of the minor schools still do it that way, outside the influence of the Rokari and New Hrestoli.

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Also... anyone have a guess how working toward being a Knight / Man-of-All would work, either in terms of the process or the eventual benefits?

Someone on a Discord server suggested there's a parallel between Illumination's potential to allow people to leave cults without repraisals, and someone able to somehow transcend caste-specific definitions of rightness, though I'm unsure how that'd work mechanically.

I think it probably boils down to initiating into the cult of Hrestol. From Jeff's notes, we know that his initiates can ignore caste restrictions as long as they act with "Justice", and they get some Rune magic from him. Otherwise I think the benefits of the class are largely dependent on your own actions and how much your community supports you. So long as you're Just you can do just about anything, but God isn't going to hand you the world on a platter.

Edited August 26 by Richard S.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Also... anyone have a guess how working toward being a Knight / Man-of-All would work, either in terms of the process or the eventual benefits?

There's two specific stages that I know of.

The first is to join the cult of Hrestol.  That allows anybody to ignore caste restrictions if their actions uphold the Hrestoli code (https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-hrestol-and-the-invisible-god/).  Of course doing so pretty much outs you as heterodox on Seshnela and a person of interest on Loskalm.  

The second is to achieve Joy, a state of oneness with the Invisible God.  This requires an INT+POW on a d100 (ritual can augment) and the expenditure of 1 point of POW (RQG p384).  Success in this allows the casting of several Hrestoli sorcery spells that require an awareness of Joy.  Knowledge of Joy also allows one to progress higher within the ranks of the Guardians of Loskalm.  

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Nevermet said:

As I push everything into being about Maniria, I did some quick math on this. The Holy City of Kaxtorplose, a rather isolated enclave of Malkioni with roughly 1,000 people, would break down as...

• 900 Dronars
• 50 Horali
• 30 Zzaburi
• 20 Talari

That gets interesting to me.  Specifically, I'm unsure if its sustainable for a small Malkioni community like that to have castes that are guaranteed by bloodline.

I don't think it's sustainable.  The lowest limit for an exclusive sect would have to be the Aeolians who are several times larger.  Malkioni societies need not practice caste to be identifiable as Malkioni.  I myself think the key test is whether the society respects their Wizards more than they do their priests.

On the particular topic of Kaxtorplose, I jest think there's a school of wizards there who have largely given up on trying to encourage the larger city to accept caste.  Perhaps one or two rulers do but that's it.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Brithini Enchantments are basically my personal replacement for the previewed "Rightness" rules and caste magic. Maybe my opinion will change once the full rules come out, but currently I'm a little wary about there being non-human-originated magical benefits for obeying caste, which seems to fly in the face of Malkioni humanism.

I myself think that the benefits of caste magic are enchantments cast by the Wizards and that the caste ideals are metaphyiscal constructs created by magical legislation and maintained by the Wizards. That many people believe these were created by the Invisible God is an  error the Wizards have long since given up on correcting.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

In Fronela, Loskalm was relatively secure for a century+ but now must address the Kingdom of War, the Kingdom of Jonatela, two elf forests, and the depredations of the Ygg Island pirates.

I wonder how many Horali there are in Fronela. The Junoran Hrestoli seem to have adopted the Loskalmi system, relegating the active Horali to Guardian status and allowing them to perform other activities (or rather, demanding that from former Horali who are no longer actively serving). I guess that a lot of Horali caste females who don't serve as soldiers use the Menena glitch to perform other jobs.

That leaves the Syanorans and possibly some minorities in the Danubian city states, as Jonatela probably has Orlanthi warriors allowed side jobs as farmers (or farm supervisors).

[metcalph]

On the subject of Talars leading armies, we have one factual example - Talar Maslakan Phillippe who was Arkat's commanding officer once upon a time.  As a result of this debate:

I myself think the Brithini practice was not long standing but rather evolved in the Dawn Age as a reactionary measure to suppress the causes of the Brithini Civil War.  Before,the Brithini were quite happy to have their armies commanded solely within the Horal caste.  Afterwards, the Brithini have become so paranoid that attempts to revive the ancient practice are grounds for immediate exile.  Of course this raises the question that there is a great gulf between what the Brithini currently do and what the Brithini Laws actually permit them to do.  

As for the Malkioni Nobility (Rokari and God Learners), I think Malkioni philosophers have evolved towards the idea that as the Nobility is the source of all authority, they cannot fall into error if they behave in a noble fashion.  Thus a Noble may learn sorcery, worship Dark Gods, take up arms so long as they act nobly.  If they were to take orders from somebody of lower caste, they are no longer acting nobly and can be punished.  The real constraints on Noble misbehaviour aren't the Wizards but other Nobles.  Embarrassing your noble house or publicly harming another member of your family will lead to severe social sanctions (like being posted to a ruined castle on the coast).  Thus the Rokari Nobles involve themselves in war because it's fun and who's to stop them having fun?

 

[John Biles]

The answer to 'this community doesn't have enough talars to avoid inbreeding' is, I think 'there are other Malkioni communities you intermarry with'.

Indeed, even the dronars are going to marry outsiders who also dronars to some degree.

 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I myself think that the benefits of caste magic are enchantments cast by the Wizards and that the caste ideals are metaphyiscal constructs created by magical legislation and maintained by the Wizards. That many people believe these were created by the Invisible God is an  error the Wizards have long since given up on correcting.

Agreed. IMHO Rightness mostly comes down to the critically limited resource of wizards prioritizing who they cast long term magic on. You want to buff the brave solider, not the cowardly or treacherous one. Sometimes wizards will do things like cast conditional enchantments, like a sword that will shatter if its wielder breaks a lawful order. This leads to the strict legalist definition of Rightness that Hrestol railed against.

As cult precedes culture, cast precedes caste.

Brithini and Vadeli worry much less about Rightness as they have enough wizards that everyone gets blessed. They still have laws, but exile or execution are the punishments, not being pushed to the back of the line when spells are handed out.

Everyone will have at least one Menena parent, and members of other castes would normally have one close relative from that caste. So I suspect the numbers for an isolated group of generic Malkioni are actually going to be something more like:

- Menena: 500. 

- Dronar: 450. 

- Horali: 35. 

- Zzaburi: 10, perhaps a fifth of the number that would be ideal.

- Talar: 5, one royal family, with one ruler and 4 heirs

A shortage leads to more distant relatives being accepted. The Rokari in particular actively search for those with aptitude with wizardry. Such aptitude is generally taken as proof of the right degree of ancestry.

This is not so different in demographics from a similar sized Orlanthi clan. The big difference is that caste is assigned at birth,rather than cult selected at initiation. If they don't have access to Brithini secrets, they will not have the Menena caste magic that allows caste to be selected at conception[1]. But that means that in effect Menana have no caste restrictions; they are free to labour, fight, study or rule as required. They may join any cult. Most Malkioni PCs will likely be from this  caste.

This somewhat makes up for the critical limitation of the caste system, the ~20 year gap between the decision of what a child should be and them becoming useful in that role.  In contrast, less rigid societies have to make the decision of whether they need warriors or framers only a year or two in advance. 

Most, but not all Menena are women. A legitimate marriage is always between a Menena and a member of another caste .  Female members of other castes commonly feel they are judged more harshly for caste infractions, and may have difficulty in finding a good husband.

[1]  If the women worship some Earth Goddess, they will get some form of Bless pregnancy which does much the same. A

 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

Sometimes wizards will do things like cast conditional enchantments, like a sword that will shatter if its wielder breaks a lawful order. 

I don't think the Wizard will waste much time with that.  A more effective solution is to have the warrior swear an Oath spell of loyalty using the local humakti and the problem solves itself.  

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

Everyone will have at least one Menena parent, and members of other castes would normally have one close relative from that caste. So I suspect the numbers for an isolated group of generic Malkioni are actually going to be something more like:

Although the Brithini have Menenas, many other Malkioni such as the Rokari ("Women typically belong to the caste of their father." Guide p48) , the Aeolians and the Vadeli do not.  

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

The answer to 'this community doesn't have enough talars to avoid inbreeding' is, I think 'there are other Malkioni communities you intermarry with'.

Indeed, even the dronars are going to marry outsiders who also dronars to some degree.

 

Geographical mobility of caste members in the various Malkioni societies is rather under-documented. Involuntary relocation of peasants might be common, and chattle-trade of marriage partners might be happening in other castes, too.

Rokari sorcerer candidates are cloistered, so all undergo relocation upon being selected for the caste.