Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[g33k]

21 minutes ago, Malin said:

... I'm going to say thank you and ask: There were some mentions in here of a Prax book. Is that still on the table? Or one about the Wastes?

Yes; Prax is on the list of most-immediate "Upcoming releases"
https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/16076-upcoming-glorantha-publications/

(noted as "back from editing."  Thus it still needs art & layout done; editorial may also have sections going back to author(s?) for re-write).

I would not look for this before 2025, at a guess, and 2026 would not shock me.

No idea how much material on the Wastes would be included; that kinda seems like a separate supplement.

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by g33k

[Ian A. Thomson]

Twenty years ago I was one of the editors and contributors for something called 'The Prax Book' that was a fan-made product that was being prepared as a submission for Issaries Inc

I'm pretty sure it never saw the light of day, but as an editor I saw/had an advanced copy, and there was a sh*t tonne of articles written

The problem we had was that Issaries was asking us for less, not more, and a series was being mooted

Anyone else remember that? Have a copy still?

[AndreasDavour]

On 1/15/2017 at 8:17 AM, JonL said:

They use their flying buffalo to handle the troll tunnels.

I know this is years later, but I wanted to let you know someone got the joke, and liked it a lot! That was great!!

[scott-martin]

Suddenly I need to know how prevalent horns are among the great herds.

On earth, here's how it plays out:

BISON, SABLE - both genders have horns
IMPALA - male only
LLAMA (LOW) - no horns
MAN (HERD) - no horns

I would not mind if IMG female impala had horns and all high llamas had something, even if it's only something like the earthly giraffe or male okapi . . . only again extended to the mothers. But I could be wrong.

I would not be surprised if the morocanth groom their herd to create hornlike crests from wild head hair. (Think of the wilder om hairstyles in "Fantastic Planet" and not anything earthly. We are not going there.) They then parade their property in front of the other tribes as proof that these are the two-legged people who drew the food card. Even though modern morocanth do not present any kind of horn or tusk they are culturally sensitive and tend to wear hats anyway among strangers.

 

[mfbrandi]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:30 PM, scott-martin said:

I would not be surprised if the morocanth groom their herd to create hornlike crests from wild head hair.

An Animal Liberation Front gesture of solidarity: four legs good; two legs bad; two horns good …

One would like to think so, but maybe — like the revolutionary pigs — they have become harder and harder to tell from the humans as the Butcher’s rewrite remains unedited.

[Edit: oops — kinda read it wrong first time: head/herd, but I think it gets to more or less the right place in the end. Ho hum.]

Edited September 15, 2023 by mfbrandi
apology

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

An Animal Liberation Front gesture of solidarity: four legs good; two legs bad; two horns good …

One would like to think so, but maybe — like the revolutionary pigs — they have become harder and harder to tell from the humans as the Butcher’s rewrite remains unedited.

[Edit: oops — kinda read it wrong first time: head/herd, but I think it gets to more or less the right place in the end. Ho hum.]

If Norayeep's mother could receive Morag by mating with a minotaur hero of the Storm Bison, wouldn't a Morokanth herder be able to select a few of his herd man cows to achieve similar results? Not necessarily bison-form Storm Bull, possibly Aurochs-form minotaurs from Dragon Pass.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Morag

This is genius! The simple switch to a name for a Scottish girl — “Mòrag,” allegedly meaning “star of the sea” — and a lake monster (Loch Morar’s Nessie) “explains” so much:

• the storm tribe’s obsession with red hair
• why Orlanth is really a girl
• the “air” element’s undoubted Water connection
• Water’s invasion of the Sky
• Orlanth’s rivalry with the sun

I am not worthy. [Backs slowly from throne room on knees.]

Edited September 16, 2023 by mfbrandi
no, really — brilliant!

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

[W]ouldn't a Morokanth herder be able to select a few of his herd man cows to [cross with] Aurochs-form minotaurs from Dragon Pass[?]

Possibly, but if that ran the risk of breeding in Minotaur-level intelligence and belligerence, would you risk it? And would it be to the point? Wouldn’t we then be talking too of cross breeding Morokanth with [insert candidate here] to make them more human?

I think the herd human hair gel thing is supposed to be performative: it is a cultural cringe to the human supremacists of Waha: if you let us play human, we too will pretend that:

1. the lottery was fair
2. the beasts were meant to lose

“Look! Look! In our case the beasts did lose. Just like in your case. Let us be human, too, and we will sell out our beast cousins.” There has to be some cognitive dissonance, some Orwellian doublethink to it. If the Morokanth were made really human and the herd wo/men really (horned) beasts, then what is meant to be an expression of human chauvinism would become — via a weird route — a mere statement of fact. That wouldn’t do. Not at all.

Although I would like to think that the Morokanth outsmarted Waha by winning his rigged lottery, I suspect that there was always supposed to be one anomalous result. If the beasts didn’t win in one tribe, what would the Wahist humans have to grumble about? If there were no “dirty stinking foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs,” the racists and xenophobes would be the first to complain — the in group needs the out group to be admitted at least partway, or they would be left alone with their own awfulness, with not even a fragile sense of superiority.

Of course, the Morokanth’s “look, look: horns!” can be subversive, too. Push it too far, and you are clearly taking the piss out of the two-legs. Go one further and remove your bowler to reveal that you have spiked your own hair into horns, too: anarcho-punk Morokanth.

What do the baboons make of all this? They are similarly caught between human and beast, but presumably outside of the weird survival lottery mindset.

[The above should be considered tentative. It will likely collapse under the weight of its own pretension. But one has to spin the wheel.]

[Erol of Backford]

35 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Possibly, but if that ran the risk of breeding in Minotaur-level intelligence and belligerence, would you risk it? And would it be to the point? Wouldn’t we then be talking too of cross breeding Morokanth with [insert candidate here] to make them more human?

Naimless had troll lovers, didn't she, what if she had a half-trollkin baby, not the same but why would she risk it? What would the result be, not that its directly related but she was at Tourney Altar with some trolls... so it was in Prax, kinda sorta.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

wouldn't a Morokanth herder be able to select a few of his herd man cows to achieve similar results?

The INT would be potentially 3 less for a minotaur but surely potentially lower if it were a heardman? It'd be a risk but broo don't actually care about the results of their mating/their offspring most of the time do they...

No horns on the Morokanth, if that matters.

Do we have actual cases of Morokanth-human offspring?

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

No horns on the Morokanth, if that matters.
Do we have actual cases of Morokanth-human offspring?

On 9/14/2023 at 9:30 PM, scott-martin said:

Even though modern morocanth do not present any kind of horn or tusk

If we look at the family tree, we see that the tapir people (problematic, liminal) are most closely related to rhinos (in thrall to a lesser tribe — the humiliation!) and horses/zebras (which is definitely a thing). So maybe all kinds of shenanigans went on to rid the proto-Morokanth of their nose horns — not a good look with a trunk, anyway — and to get the early equidae some stripy camouflage. Let us blame Waha — cult or god, to taste — for the Praxian attitudes that cause so much aggro.

Or … it may be that stripelessness and nose horns were late add-ons — the rhinos saddled with horns (in the wrong place) as an insulting sign of beasthood. Here is Hyrachyus eximus (a common ancestor of horses, rhinos, and tapirs):

There is a radical Morokanth secret society dedicated to creating a Paraceratherium army to liberate their horsey and rhino cousins. “We were never children of Eiritha,” they claim. Their graffiti? “None shall live near the hornless beast.”

Spoiler

Edited September 16, 2023 by mfbrandi
added alternate take — not even paracanon, here

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Do we have actual cases of Morokanth-human offspring?

If Egaija Chewer of Flesh still was Most Reverend Herd Mother at the Paps when Jaldon became the Waha Khan of the Paps, there probably was a herdman child born in the process, as befits an Eiritha priestess. Possibly twinned with a Morokanth girl.

 

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

“None shall live near the hornless beast.”

This deep cut on the morocanth way is indeed relevant to my interests. I see that they are 2% ZZ, 6% 7M, 19% Daka and 11% other . . . significantly better integrated into the waha way than the Pol-Joni but when you really crunch the numbers the bar is pretty low.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

6% 7M, 19% Daka

That has gotta be a help in questing to bring back “ancestral” forms, right? And that’s a solid 1/4 of the population potentially up for joining the cabal. What kind of Frankenparaceratherium are they going to come up with?

Spoiler

I am pretty sure that Daka Fal likes the Seven Mothers because — like him — they were not gods but ladies with an attitude, fellas that were in the mood. What an image of the ancestral summoning that conjures.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

If Egaija Chewer of Flesh still was Most Reverend Herd Mother at the Paps when Jaldon became the Waha Khan of the Paps, there probably was a herdman child born in the process, as befits an Eiritha priestess. Possibly twinned with a Morokanth girl.

In my Glorantha, most of the Most Respected Elders attain their status at what we would recognise as past child-bearing ages (there are of course a few exceptions). Here's the last cycle of 49 Elders :

Tribe	Name	Age when honored	Year when honored	Reign	Died	Death Age
Impala	Katenia	59	1379	50	1429	109
High Llama	Noymee	54	1429	23	1452	77
Sable	Janyten	48	1452	50	1502	98
Nosehorn	Teto-Tha (Agimori)	47	1502	43	1545	90
Bison	Norta-Ia	52	1545	27	1572	79
Morokanth	Egajia	40	1572	57	1629	97

When Jaldon returns, Egajia is in her mid-nineties and Jaldon is.. well Jaldon a weird half-cursed hero and judging by his pictures, both may not be up to parenting.

However the best example of mixed births, was the when the Zebra tribe was created:

Quote

Joraz went to the Green Age with the Zebra High Priestess and wedded the Zebra Protectress herself. Their twin daughters, were born the following year, and Joraz was declared Zebra Founder by the Paps. Their two-legged daughter Joria was raised there, becoming High Priestess of the Zebras in 880 and the Most Respected Elder in 914. Her four-legged sister became the mother of the small zebra herd still found at the Paps today.

 

[g33k]

I'm still pretty OG on my Morokanthi... they're omnivorous, eating flesh freely, and are less-able to eat the same foods as wild tapirs can eat; because Survival Covenant:  that was the Covenant!

Folks in Genert's Garden were all "People" (two-legs & four- both).
Then, Earthfall.  The Greater Darkness.  Everyone was dying.
Waha (and Eiritha) created the Survival Covenant, offered it to all the peoples of the Wastes.  They took it, of course; because the alternative to Survival was... not surviving.  So, by edict of Waha + Eiritha (and likely fragments of Genert's power, hoarded by W+E for emergencies), the People all became Eaters and Eaten.

IMG, there's some grumbling among the Human tribes about how "Obviously, the Morokanth cheated (or they would have been Eaten)" and among the Morokanth about how "Obviously, many of the Humans must have cheated (or more 4-legs would be Eaters)" ...  But really, people:  you think those pitiful, doomed, barely-hanging-on survivors had the Mythic resources to cheat their gods??!?  Well, YGWV...   

IMG, the Rune-levels know better.  They see the moderate rivalries as good for overall tribal survival (rivalries & raiding are part of Waha's Way, part of surviving), and don't quash them unless things look to be getting out of hand.

Mythically speaking, Herd Men have no more potential for intelligence than any other animal, except via the Survival Covenant's Alter Creature spell (someone like Morag from CoP could, I think, be turned into one of the Eaten via Alter Creature... unless Storm Bull himself has pulled him out of the Survival Covenant).  Minotaur/Herd-man hybrids can be forced, with a *LOT* of Fertility magic & likely some Heroquesting, much as any other "odd" hybrid.

YGWV

[John Biles]

My own take on the Morokanth success was Eurmal found it amusing.

 

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

  Minotaur/Herd-man hybrids can be forced, with a *LOT* of Fertility magic & likely some Heroquesting, much as any other "odd" hybrid.

YGWV

IMG Minotaurs are a lot of fertility magic, much like their cousins the broos. They can mate with cattle, Praxian herd beasts, nymphs, and human females. The latter might take some extra magic, as described in Biturian's Travels.

[kalidor]

Does anyone knows what common rune spells Thunder Bird offers?

[David Scott]

22 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Does anyone knows what common rune spells Thunder Bird offers?

If accessed as an Orlanth Adventurous subcult (LB 34), you'd get them from Orlanth. Otherwise none, small spirit cults rarely give them (if at all). In addition to Thunderbolt, the spirit cult has Cloud Call available.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:36 PM, g33k said:

But really, people:  you think those pitiful, doomed, barely-hanging-on survivors had the Mythic resources to cheat their gods??!

But who says the gods were cheated ?

maybe the gods did not care a all. They just need eaters and eated

Maybe the cheat was just that they did not follow the rules those who considered themselves as superior (aka the 2-legs) defined and probably the 4-legs followed… after all the principles of the herd is to follow the leader without questions.

there is no hunting beasts in the convenant among the 4-legs. No lion, no tiger, no sabretooth , wolf or bear !The only predators were humans, so easy to win against peaceful beasts

Maybe the cheat was only that morokanths dis not follow the 2-legs who claimed there were predators by nature but resisted and applied their own strategy of defense.

IMO that’s good for the gods. It shows for ever that humans are not so much powerful and should not try to challenge the gods

. Keep humble guys or you may meet the same fate than those who believed they were superior of these pitiful doomed, barely-hanging-on survivors

[g33k]

22 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But who says the gods were cheated ?

...

This is (IIRC in-canon) one of the claims made by some humans (as to why the Morokanth won); and made by some Morokanth (as to why no other Four-Leg Peoples won what was supposed to be a "fair" (50/50) contest).

So, both sides claiming the other side "cheated."

(My own point is that such cheating is overwhelmingly-unlikely)

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

This is (IIRC in-canon) one of the claims made by some humans (as to why the Morokanth won); and made by some Morokanth (as to why no other Four-Leg Peoples won what was supposed to be a "fair" (50/50) contest).

So, both sides claiming the other side "cheated."

(My own point is that such cheating is overwhelmingly-unlikely)

Yeah i agree they cheated

my point is they did not cheat the gods. They cheated the losers

that’s different 🙂

[g33k]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:30 PM, scott-martin said:

...
LLAMA (LOW) - no horns
...

AFAIK, the "High Llama" is explicitly Alticamelus/Aepycamelus spp, and I have never noticed any of the species being pictured with horns.

Note that -- despite the similar appearance to giraffes -- these are camels/llamas.  Giraffe/Okapi (and their "ossicones" (not horns!)) are a relatively distant branch of artiodactyls.

FWIW, that is... in case the earthly relationships, and earthly science, are relevant <giving the Horse the ol hairy eyeball here, as they're more related to birds!>, so none of the foregoing is necessarily relevant!  As Eiritha's children, the High Llama very well may be more closely to the rest of her children, than they are to ANYTHING non-Praxian!

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:50 AM, Malin said:

This has always been an enormously useful post for me, and now when I am finally posting on the forum I'm going to say thank you and ask: There were some mentions in here of a Prax book. Is that still on the table? Or one about the Wastes?

Since I was a contributor to the Greatlands Book(s) Project many moons ago, I recently requested and received those files. Haven't had a chance to look at them yet though

[Erol of Backford]

So when my daughter was 3 we went to Mesa Verde and she said "Papa, look there is a castle..." It was the section of cliff dwellings nearest to the visitor's center.

Prax always has me thinking American Southwest somehow. Either along the River of Cradles tucked in the nearly 600m of elevation change within 5-8km of the river, at least at the east side of the river from Ronegarth?

Possibly in Sun County there are some pueblos that confound the beat riders? The other thought I had was they could be dwarfish constructs similar to those at Dwarf Run but in the sides of the Plateau of Statues or in the Graveyard somewhere. A Castle of Chaos, Caves of Chaos or both carved into the side of the plateau or the Tunneled Hills for that matter along cliff faces in the Mostali Graveyard?

Speaking of Chaos Dwarves in the Mostali Graveyard, I recall the Iron Warriors (White Dwarf Magazine Issue 098) whom were supposed to be in Balazar and had a yak companion, whom if they were chaotics and had added chaos features would be real baddies... they would be troll sized dwarves with dwarvish gear and chaos features. Tough cookies for sure.