New design notes - Sorcery!

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Once a year at least.  This old excuse for not liking skill checks raises it's hoary old head at least annually.

Seems like you have an opinion, are other peoples opinions excuses?

With me its not just skills checks its a fractured experience/improvement system,we have separate mechnanics for skill experience,training, spelling learning, power gains and rune magic improvement.

I'm all up for an abstract system which deals with all advancement in one mechanic, is controlled and is evenly balanced between players.

[Pentallion]

Opinions can be wrong.  Just because they're opinions doesn't make them sacred and unassailable.  The complaint that players take advantage of skill checks is invalid because the DM has full control over whether or not the players can check the skill.  Invalid arguments are not valid opinions.  Sorry.

 

And excuse me for being sick and tired of hearing this argument dredged up all the time.  It's old. 

Edited September 1, 2016 by Pentallion

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'm all up for an abstract system which deals with all advancement in one mechanic, is controlled and is evenly balanced between players.

It's called levels of experience. Many people like them. Go check out D&D for their merits and drawbacks 

Seriously, an advancement system that is "evenly balanced between players" is a myth or joke. Why should all characters advance at the same rate? Should somebody who just sits like a lump and contributes nothing advance as fast as someone who is doing all sorts of things? 

The skill check advancement system has some flaws, but it sure beats any of the abstract, controlled and so called evenly balanced systems I've ever seen. Generally they are either so controlled that the players have little choice in what advances (i.e. D&D level), or so evenly balanced that characters are forced to become one trick ponies and you wind up what is essentially a class system in all but name, where players are afraid to "waste" improvement rolls on a skill that's outside their narrow focus.

 

Pentallion has a point. Skill check hunting does get raised on a fairly regular basis, and does get shot down pretty quickly. In most cases, skill check hunting is a problem that is created and enpowered by the GM. Not necessarily intentionally so, but done so never the less.  

 

And since people are raising opinions, one of mine is that since we now have all sorts of versions and variant of RQ that have incorporated such divergent ideas such as GM allocated improvement  rolls, action points, custom specials and critical hits, opposed rolls, etc. etc. could it be possible to have at least one version of RQ on the market with actual RuneQuest rules? The systems been changed, adapted, simplified, revised, re-envisioned, renamed, revised, resurrected, revamped. updated, altered, and adulterated in just about every way imaginable.  By now, there should be enough variants to please just about anybody who wants to play something related to RuneQuest. Why not actually have the actual RuneQuest rules in print, and not just some variant system that swiped the name? 

[MOB]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

It's called levels of experience. Many people like them. Go check out D&D for their merits and drawbacks 

Seriously, an advancement system that is "evenly balanced between players" is a myth or joke. Why should all characters advance at the same rate? Should somebody who just sits like a lump and contributes nothing advance as fast as someone who is doing all sorts of things? 

The skill check advancement system has some flaws, but it sure beats any of the abstract, controlled and so called evenly balanced systems I've ever seen. Generally they are either so controlled that the players have little choice in what advances (i.e. D&D level), or so evenly balanced that characters are forced to become one trick ponies and you wind up what is essentially a class system in all but name, where players are afraid to "waste" improvement rolls on a skill that's outside their narrow focus.

 

Pentallion has a point. Skill check hunting does get raised on a fairly regular basis, and does get shot down pretty quickly. In most cases, skill check hunting is a problem that is created and enpowered by the GM. Not necessarily intentionally so, but done so never the less.  

 

And since people are raising opinions, one of mine is that since we now have all sorts of versions and variant of RQ that have incorporated such divergent ideas such as GM allocated improvement  rolls, action points, custom specials and critical hits, opposed rolls, etc. etc. could it be possible to have at least one version of RQ on the market with actual RuneQuest rules? The systems been changed, adapted, simplified, revised, re-envisioned, renamed, revised, resurrected, revamped. updated, altered, and adulterated in just about every way imaginable.  By now, there should be enough variants to please just about anybody who wants to play something related to RuneQuest. Why not actually have the actual RuneQuest rules in print, and not just some variant system that swiped the name? 

[Moderator Hat] And that can be the last word on skills checks for now, unless someone wants to start all new thread about it - for here though, please get back to discussing the new rules for sorcery, which is the topic of this thread...

[davecake]

On 31/08/2016 at 4:00 AM, Jon Hunter said:

Like most things the devils in the detail, and it will be the implementation that determine whether sits a workable and balanced system or not.

Absolutely. And some of the details aren't yet settled. 

On 31/08/2016 at 4:00 AM, Jon Hunter said:

I was hoping for something different with sorcery, to my mind in Glorantha its the magic that breaks the rules and has the most potential to change things in unforeseen and  possibly catastrophic ways ( EWF, Godleaners, etc ).

It does this by being the form of magic that is least constrained by external forces (well, unless you count Illumination). But it is still constrained in many practical ways by social means (notably other sorcerers, many of whom have very strong opinions on what the rules of sorcery are), including access to resources. 

On 31/08/2016 at 4:00 AM, Jon Hunter said:

I think here we have something which too equivalent and comparable to the other magic systems.  I'm  not sure the use in creating something that sounds like another recipe for making a very similar dish. (ie different mechanic similar outcomes.)

Whether or not there are rules included in the first version of RQ for it, what really distinguishes sorcery from other magic systems is the capacity to create new spells, and thus new magical effects, in a relatively controlled way. That is, a magus can decide to create a particular magical effect, put in the necessary (and significant) intellectual and magical effort, and create a new spell - the closest other traditions can come is basically heroquesting for a new magical effect. 

On 31/08/2016 at 4:00 AM, Jon Hunter said:

 

Stuff game balance! Give me something which is horrid and rubbish for all none wizard cast users, but in the hands of a arch mage can alter the very fabric of Glorantha.

Balance this out in the Game by making it slow and ritualistic, no quick casts, or reactive magic. Good powerful sorcery takes days of preparation.

The ability to create new spells makes sorcery dangerous, and potentially 'unbalancing' if that is what you want. But yes, a big spell, especially a newly created one, is going to be slow and ritualistic. Accumulating necessary ritual objects, engaging other casters, waiting for the right times - all things you will want to do for a big new spell.

On 31/08/2016 at 4:00 AM, Jon Hunter said:

Now to be fair that is not good for PC sorcerers, but great for in game bad guys and NPC's which is probably what i wanted

I see no reason why you can't have a system that is playable for PCs and good for NPC master sorcerers at the same time. 

 

[styopa]

15 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Once a year at least.  This old excuse for not liking skill checks raises it's hoary old head at least annually.

Edit: Just saw MOB's 'end of skill discussion' - so removing my reply.

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by styopa

[Runeblogger]

Now that we know how sorcery is looking, I'm looking forward to how animism is going to be portrayed. I hope they do a good job with spirit cults such as Waha, Aldrya, Kyger Litor, Basmol, Telmor, etc. In RQ3 they were just like divine cults but with shamans as priests, meh. But this of course belongs in a forthcoming thread, so I'd rather wait.

[Jon Hunter]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

I see no reason why you can't have a system that is playable for PCs and good for NPC master sorcerers at the same time. 

I'm hoping to be proved wrong here, but if low level sorcery is a powerful as spirit or divine magic and very flexible and highly highly powerful at the top[ end, its an unbalanced mechanic.

I more worried about the former than the later. if sorcery has its own spells which are very similar to the battle/spirit magic equivalents, its different words and mechanic but a similar result.

When I was considering sorcery for WOD:Glorantha i was considering at the following ideas.

• Take the mage rules in terms of direct manipulation of the world via runes.
• Substitute runes for spheres
• No set spells direct manipulation of the world via runes
• Limit instant effects, this stuff is planned and structured spellcasting, so either stop it completely or give needed bonuses for ritual and preparation.
• Uses each success to determine effect, duration or range, do lots of success needed for potent spells. Low level sorcery is not really effective
• Keep the concept like paradox as it fits glorantha snapping back towards the great compromise, and reflects the stories of the end of the 2nd age very well.

However id like to see what the new rules come up with.

[Runeblogger]

On 25/8/2016 at 8:47 PM, Jeff said:

OK, let's take Damalstan the sorcerer. He's got an INT of 17 and POW of 16. He's got a 5 point magic crystal and a bound spirit with 13 magic points - that gives him 34 in total. Damalstan knows the following Runes: Fire, Truth, and Movement, and he knows two Techniques - Summon and Tap. He's already nearly maxed on the Runes and Techniques he can master. He can know up to 17 spells, but right now he only knows 6 - Conflaguration 65%, Steal Warmth 50%, Enhance INT 35%, Memorize 40%, Reveal Rune 35%, and Summon Fire Elemental 30%.

Conflaguration, Steal Warmth, Enhance INT, and Memorize are all at the normal magic point cost - but Reveal Rune and Summon Fire Elemental have double magic point costs (he hasn't mastered all the Runes/Techniques of the spell, but can rely on knowledge from related Runes/Techniques).

Damalstan always carries around a lit lamp (to give him a bonus on his Fire Rune spells, and a "Y" shaped staff to help him on his Truth spells. 

When his friends are attacked by broo, Damalstan decides to cast a powerful Conflaguration - a 2 point spell - on the toughest looking of the broos. He decides to add 11 magic points to the strength of the spell. That means Damalstan will spend two full rounds casting the spell, and it will go off on round three. Hopefully, his friends can hold them that long. Round three happens, and Damalstan rolls to cast his spell - he has a base of 65% plus 6% for the silly lamp he always carries around (he rolled  a 6). Damalstan rolls a 23 - a success. He marks off 13 magic points and a fire hot enough to melt lead is summoned on the broo leader - and it does 3D6 damage to a hit location. No magic resistance roll is necessary - this is a real fire! It does 13 points of damage - and if the broo does not move away, he'll take damage next round!

However, Damalstan is now down to 21 magic points and needs to be careful about trying to do this again!

I have reread this example that I like a lot. But I have one question: is it OK that Damalstan hasn't mastered the runes/techniques of the spell Summon Fire Elemental when he knows Summon and Fire? Did you mean perhaps Summon Air Elemental? Or what are the runes/techniques involved in Summon Fire Elemental?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

is it OK that Damalstan hasn't mastered the runes/techniques of the spell Summon Fire Elemental when he knows Summon and Fire?

I believe saying that he "knows" Summon and Fire means that he has those techniques - you either have them or you don't.  He has them and therefore he can cast a spell such as Conflagration that requires that rune and that technique together.

Based on the notes, Summon Fire Elemental requires something more than just Summon and Fire.  I'd guess it also requires the Command technique so that you can direct the elemental you've just summoned.  Assuming that's the case, the Designer Notes indicate that he still has insight into the Command technique based on his knowledge of Summon, so it's a double point cost to cast the Summon Fire Elemental.

[Sayerson]

That seems so. Hopefully Jeff will choose to confirm this? I'm still trying to see how this works in practice and whether there are other factors that haven't been mentioned yet.

[Jeff]

There's a lot of different versions of the Summon Spell. Damalstan's version requires Summon, Fire, and Command - meaning that each point of spell strength costs him two magic points. Commanding the elemental is going to be awful darn hard at 2 mp per point of spell strength - Damalstan would be hard pressed to summon anything larger than a small elemental with his personal magic points - and even then he better know the entity's true name!

If Damalstan wants to be summoning elementals, he needs to be finding sorcerous records with the true name of some elementals. Maybe in the ruins of Robcradle he might be able to find something!

[MJ Sadique]

On 27/08/2016 at 7:20 AM, Jeff said:

Semi-freeform in use does not model how I see Gloranthan sorcerers actually work. They aren't "winging it" - they use extraordinarily complex formula, like giant mathematical formulae. An individual sorcerer can develop new formula (and not just choose from a spell list), but it takes time and research.

In some cases, I get the feeling people are proposing favorite rules mechanics - in a vacuum - rather than think about what the sorcery rules are trying to model.

As scientist a core, I always seen sorcery as the Science of Magic so the concept behind the rules a really interesting, more than the rules which I found horrifying at first but a lot more interesting now. Runes are likes the elementary particules who compose the world and the techniques like the laws rules their intercations... Most rpgamers don't like science but the simplier is the better (and nothing is better than Mother nature).

For the rules, people will always "proposing favorite rules mechanics" because adaptaing the rules to their minds and linking is easy than trying to grasp what Glorantha's Principles really are. In science learning thing is easier than understand them and teaching them is the hardest... so don't mind them !

For myself I really whant to understand the logic behind the rules about how the Glorantha's Celestial Mecanic works... it's like attaining the Yesod's state, nothing is more beautifull than finding the "Castle of Logic". And I think a lot of think like heroquesting will be more understandable from this change : know yourself, know your enemies...

 

On 27/08/2016 at 7:29 AM, Jeff said:

As an aside, please keep in mind that the sorcery rules presented in the core RQ book is not intended to cover the breadth of sorcerous options - heck, it presents sorcery from the perspective of how it might appear in a Dragon Pass-centric campaign (it discusses Aeolianism, Lhankor Mhy, Lunar sorcery, and a very brief overview of Malkionism (primarily Rokari). The goal was to present a robust framework of sorcery that can be expanded in future supplements. 

For the rules, they aren't different from RQ3 in finality because the new ones explains everything at a upper level and with better logic but the final "spell" really seem to be the same. I Understand that Jeff can't fully explain all the rules but some things bother me, not the rules but a bit of the logic behind the techniques and the runes.
-Combine : make me thing of Multi-spell ... XD I'm just smilling with nothing to said if it really mean what I think !
-Command : the ability to control the Runes are a basic feature but what if someone have the Mastery Rune ? will this influence the ability to manipulate ? Could the fact of having multiple (or minor) rune help the sorcerer (like having the heat and fire rune or even the hedkoranth' one) ?

Some technique feel wrong at first sight :
-Separate (death ?) : separate like cutting thing feel more to be the work of the death/sword rune which separate thing (soul and body, head and body...). Is the technique just the opposite of combine or a really self-usefull tech ? I can't figure out how !
-Summon,  Dismiss : does summon mean "to call or notify to appear at a specified place" or "to gather" something. The first will explain the seasons great influence but the second feel more natural because calling power (of fire) around you is simplier than calling forth power from another plane of existance (like knocking at Yelm's realm and ask him to lend you some fire).
-Tap : I always feel it to be the work of a Rune (thief / steal, will update with image later) because I always feel the tapping spell to be a "Steal Life".

 

The goal was to present a robust framework of sorcery that can be expanded in future supplements. 

I understand that the sorcery will be a core rule which cannot explain everything and I'm ok with it because I can better understand how Gerlant make his flamesword with the help of sorcery. But I fear that every sorcerer will turn to be a fireball's launcher which will be the end for Glorantha's sorcery for me. I also don't think / hope either a sorcerer can have access to any runes like the rune that govern magical planes of existance ...( Like having the Dragon, Mystical rune or even Luck and destiny/fate).

[Runeblogger]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

There's a lot of different versions of the Summon Spell. Damalstan's version requires Summon, Fire, and Command - meaning that each point of spell strength costs him two magic points. Commanding the elemental is going to be awful darn hard at 2 mp per point of spell strength - Damalstan would be hard pressed to summon anything larger than a small elemental with his personal magic points - and even then he better know the entity's true name!

If Damalstan wants to be summoning elementals, he needs to be finding sorcerous records with the true name of some elementals. Maybe in the ruins of Robcradle he might be able to find something!

Does that mean that there can be a "Summon Fire Elemental" that does not include Command so the elemental can go wild once summoned?

And, how many sorcery spells will be included in the rulebook? Will you include examples of spells with all the runes?

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Does that mean that there can be a "Summon Fire Elemental" that does not include Command so the elemental can go wild once summoned?

And, how many sorcery spells will be included in the rulebook? Will you include examples of spells with all the runes?

Well in Damalstan's version of the spell, if Damalstan doesn't know the elemental's true name, he needs to tell the GM what the spell strength is going to be (remember to double the cost because he is improvising the Command technique). Then you try to overcome the elemental's magic points with the spell strength. If he fails, the elemental will be hostile to the caster and everyone in the area of the summoning.

There certainly could be a form of the spell that just summons an entity and let's it decide what to do on its own. That's the flexibility of sorcery spells - you can create what you want (you just need to spend the time).

There are 30+ sorcery spells currently in the core rules - primarily there as illustrations to help you design your own spells. 

 

[Jeff]

BTW, the Runes that can be mastered in sorcery include the: the five elemental runes (Moon is ONLY acknowledged by Lunar sorcerers), the eight power runes, and five of the form runes (spirit, plant, beast, man, and chaos). Dragonewt, mastery, magic, infinity, or whatever is not an option in these rules. 

[MJ Sadique]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

BTW, the Runes that can be mastered in sorcery include the: the five elemental runes (Moon is ONLY acknowledged by Lunar sorcerers), the eight power runes, and five of the form runes (spirit, plant, beast, man, and chaos). Dragonewt, mastery, magic, infinity, or whatever is not an option in these rules. 

6+1 Elemental Runes (Light ? / Darkness, Water / Earth, Fire / Wind) & The Moon Rune
8 Powers Runes (Harmony / Disorder, Death / Fertility, Stasis / Movement, Truth / Illusion)
5 Form Runes (spirit, man, dragonewt, plant, beast, and chaos)

I was afraid of the "choose any runes you what" that could ressurect the god's learners bad habits of "let's rock all the laws and worlds together..." but there's a lot of thing to play with ! 20 runes x 3 funs techniques (command, combine, summon) + 3 complex/battle ones (tap -bad-, dismiss -fumbler's safeguard-, separate). And we have 30+ spells examples.

1/ Will the spells to control metals will only need elemental rune or did the metal/mineral/mostal rune will be had later ? Because form/animate bronze was a very (if not ultimate) usefull spell ? Same idea for gas and liquid base spells ! or Iron with death rune ?

"unlike Runes and Techniques, spells may be forgotten."

2/ One big, and always uncomprehensible question from RQ3 period (20 years ago unsolved one) : Spells may just be a method or an habit to manipulate magic but how can we forget such knowledge (can't just use tapping spell knowledge on myself ?) and what will append to the percentage associate with it ? It's not like I can forget myself some formulae or recipice because I just want it !!!

[Jeff]

23 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

6+1 Elemental Runes (Light ? / Darkness, Water / Earth, Fire / Wind) & The Moon Rune
8 Powers Runes (Harmony / Disorder, Death / Fertility, Stasis / Movement, Truth / Illusion)
5 Form Runes (spirit, man, dragonewt, plant, beast, and chaos)

I was afraid of the "choose any runes you what" that could ressurect the god's learners bad habits of "let's rock all the laws and worlds together..." but there's a lot of thing to play with ! 20 runes x 3 funs techniques (command, combine, summon) + 3 complex/battle ones (tap -bad-, dismiss -fumbler's safeguard-, separate). And we have 30+ spells examples.

1/ Will the spells to control metals will only need elemental rune or did the metal/mineral/mostal rune will be had later ? Because form/animate bronze was a very (if not ultimate) usefull spell ? Same idea for gas and liquid base spells ! or Iron with death rune ?

"unlike Runes and Techniques, spells may be forgotten."

2/ One big, and always uncomprehensible question from RQ3 period (20 years ago unsolved one) : Spells may just be a method or an habit to manipulate magic but how can we forget such knowledge (can't just use tapping spell knowledge on myself ?) and what will append to the percentage associate with it ? It's not like I can forget myself some formulae or recipice because I just want it !!!

By placing that knowledge into a less accessible room within the mage's memory palace (which takes some time and an INTx3 check). The memory can be recovered from its place in the mage's memory palace (it takes about 3 hours of meditation to try and an INTx4 check to succeed). Of course sorcerers know the techniques described by Frances Yates in "The Art of Memory." 

[Jeff]

I did even toy around with creating a Memorize skill so that we could go nuts with the art of memory in a campaign filled with sages, scribes, and sorcerers. But alas, some skills needed to go.

[styopa]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I did even toy around with creating a Memorize skill so that we could go nuts with the art of memory in a campaign filled with sages, scribes, and sorcerers. But alas, some skills needed to go.

So I'm curious what role Grimoires will take in RQ4 Sorcery?  Is it merely a synonym for 'big old book' or is it a thing of meaning in itself?

I know they played a role in other Glorantha rules sets (I didn't play that one at all), and they're mentioned a few times in the Guide.  Are these plain-old-spellbooks (the 'memory palace'  mentioned above sounds pretty much like D&D spellbook mechanics without actually having to carry around spellbooks) or are they something more substantial?

[Jeff]

You do know about the Ars reminiscendi of Giordano Bruno, right? Or the loci and imagines of Cicero? I mean this isn't Vancean magic - the art of memory was a very influential discipline in the ancient world, as well as in the medieval and renaissance eras. 

 

[davecake]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

BTW, the Runes that can be mastered in sorcery include the: the five elemental runes (Moon is ONLY acknowledged by Lunar sorcerers), the eight power runes, and five of the form runes (spirit, plant, beast, man, and chaos). Dragonewt, mastery, magic, infinity, or whatever is not an option in these rules. 

Moon accessible only to Lunar sorcerers makes sense (and of course, its probably the only element accessible for most (all?) of them). And presumably they use it to 'fake' access to other runes via their phases as they do in HQG.

And no respectable member of the major sects would be interested in Chaos rune sorcery, but it is not a surprise that it is out there. 

I'm surprised that Magic is not included, because one of the few schools of sorcery we knew about, the Malvonian school, was described as a Magic rune school - and also because it is easy to see how all sorts of classic magical effects (dispel magic, protective wards, sensing and investigating magic, etc) that are already in the game in one form or another  would naturally fall within it. It seems to me to be useful enough that there are more potential problems that stem from not having it than from having it. 

I can certainly imagine what Dragonnewt, or Mastery, or Fate or Luck etc Sorcery might be, but none of it sounds like something that would be accessed by the major Western cultures. Some of it may well be useful later, when we get around to looking at non-Western sorcery traditions such Kralorelan sorcery. (eg Path of Immanent Mastery could potentially be reinvented as a bunch of Combine Dragon and Man spells). 

[davecake]

I like the idea of the arts of Memory. I think there is quite a lot of rich potential in the idea that interaction with the 'Essential plane' begins with the sorcerers own memory palace.

[MJ Sadique]

The Palace of memoy for sorcerers is a great idea but i never think about it for my players XD, only the Magistes was using it in my campaigns. 

The simpliest examples for it are The Holmes of BBC's Sherlock which openly use teh palace memory's theory and it is visually spectacular. The Mentalist is also using this principle as a memory bank abilities; the main character usually help the others doing the same for learning quickly a large list of elements formulae or building new personnalities (lie a spell).

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

I'm surprised that Magic is not included, because one of the few schools of sorcery we knew about, the Malvonian school, was described as a Magic rune school ..

I'm not surprise !!! Magic is not included because the Magic Rune is (1) as powerfull a Mastery Rune -also a bit the counter part of Mastery- and (2) also mean "It means the communication to the Otherside." which mean to be able to go to (The World of Forms, Gods' n' Spirits or even Hero Plane or Underworld) ie (3) doing Heroquesting which is not the point in RQ2.5 as state earlier.

 

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

And no respectable member of the major sects would be interested in Chaos rune sorcery, but it is not a surprise that it is out there.

Respectable... we are speaking about Dragon Pass area. This word mean nothing in the area ... Lunards, all of them rotten to the core XD, a certain bat like monster. The horde of orgres, vampires, succubus and others worshippers of the devils. Armies of Broo pretending to be civilized.

What bother me is the very principle of Chaos having a Rune !

[davecake]

Remember Lhankor Mhy uses sorcery, which is very respectable. And there are other sorcerers not very far away, such as the Esvulari and some of the Black Horse Troop. It's not just Lunars and such. 

Though yes, some of the bad guys, such as vampires, are quite fond of sorcery.