New design notes - Sorcery!

[styopa]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

You do know about the Ars reminiscendi of Giordano Bruno, right? Or the loci and imagines of Cicero? I mean this isn't Vancean magic - the art of memory was a very influential discipline in the ancient world, as well as in the medieval and renaissance eras. 

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here?   Obviously memory is massively important in a largely pre-literate world, even in the literate bits before Gutenberg.  I totally see both the point of a memory skill and (on the contrary) the point of leaving it out.

Somehow my main question about Grimoires and their role in RQ4 sorcery was (entirely) missed?

Edited September 8, 2016 by styopa

[MJ Sadique]

On 08/09/2016 at 10:53 PM, styopa said:

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here?   Obviously memory is massively important in a largely pre-literate world, even in the literate bits before Gutenberg.  I totally see both the point of a memory skill and (on the contrary) the point of leaving it out.

These are ancients methods of training your brain; they are also mystical books and scriptures of ancients times. I think, in terms of roleplay you can also use them to raise your INT or even use them as grimoires with spells like "Augment INT" which can give you some extra RAM in your brain.

On 08/09/2016 at 10:53 PM, styopa said:

Somehow my main question about Grimoires and their role in RQ4 sorcery was (entirely) missed?

Oh.... yes           but some of mine too. So I don't think the thread are there to answer all ours questionings. But what we can guess from the new system is that using a spell is just like solving a big formulas in this point of view : runes are basics ingredients, techniques are tools to prepare them and spells are the recipes to prepare a meal. In this analogy, grimoire is just  a food book which don't need to be magical or enchanted.

They can contains informations like true names as state before ! (notion which I'm clearly against, because true name cannot be written down nor vocalise unless there is a Rune of Law Language)

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

These are ancients methods of training your brain; they are also mystical books and scriptures of ancients times.

Yes, I believe that is correct.

One example is the Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci, a jesuit (IIRC) who travelled to China in the 16th cen.  You can find the intro to Jonathan Spence's book on the subject here: http://web.mit.edu/uricchio/Public/Documents/media-in-transition/Spence - The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci.pdf

I think the general idea is that you can move a sorcery spell that you know into a place in your memory palace, then retrieve a different spell from a different place.  It is not something that I see as requiring any specific skill.  You have some set of 'active' spells in mind (up to Free INT) and then may have others that you learned and have stored in memory, but that take time to 'retrieve' while you 'store' a different one.

 

 

[Jeff]

As a final observation on this, I am very reluctant to tie how much psychic energy a sorcery can add to a spell to increase its intensity to his skill at casting a spell. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

As a final observation on this, I am very reluctant to tie how much psychic energy a sorcery can add to a spell to increase its intensity to his skill at casting a spell. 

Why?

[MJ Sadique]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

As a final observation on this, I am very reluctant to tie how much psychic energy a sorcery can add to a spell to increase its intensity to his skill at casting a spell. 

I always had two opposite point of view of this :

-POW / INT limitation as mental STR : when you reach your maturity, your psychic strength won't evolve much. We are not all equal phycsically and won't be able double our strength ! So in terme of magical power why should we be able to ? In this case be able to use powerfull spells from start without much evolution seems logical ! Solution for giving a feelling of evolution : Make INT evolution easier as INT is not only base on naturals abilities but also represent a general knowledge.

-POW / INT limitation as a skill : To create powerfull spell is like create a sword, when you start in the job as apprentice your abilities are a lot worst than an expert. As a skill limitation some master limit MP usage, I never done it because adding a rule is inefficient. I prefer use the "ritual of concentration" giving more chance to succeed by incanting some more rounds with a max of double is base percentile. Evolution : You start at a lower level but the evolution feel more refreshing and natural.

Personnally, I give to my sorcerers the technique "(mental) concentration" (no percent) which give 1d6% par RA, 30% per round (simpler than the original Fibonacci table) and give them one INT point or one POW each year (at their preferences).

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

As a final observation on this, I am very reluctant to tie how much psychic energy a sorcery can add to a spell to increase its intensity to his skill at casting a spell. 

It's your board and your rules, so I guess you can declare something as "final" as you like and make it stick (here).

I think people are simply proposing mechanisms to scale sorcerous casters' power because they feel that a small chance to throw a nuclear bomb doesn't 'average out' to balance against a moderate chance to do moderate damage.  

It may seem like it should mathematically, but in practice I think it's dull for the largely-impotent caster, and when it "goes off" it renders unnecessary the rest of the party's efforts, not to mention blossoming balance issues as the caster becomes even reasonably competent at casting spells with little top-end scaling in impact.

[MJ Sadique]

Like styopa said : people's problem is that magic is like poker (remind me of some herowars fights) : you can do an ALL-IN or play secure ! and the second problem of this is "there is no risk to throw a powerful spell" ! So most of player will try it, knowing they have support. But it's not really glorantha-realist for me.

In CoCthulhu 7, Spells always take effect ! You try to launch a nuclear bomb, there will be one !!! will get caught or not, or will the spell suck you dry of life that is the question !

In Glorantha, you just have to know if the mass energy of a spell goes to nowhere or if and after effect will happen (Do Jrusteli use powerful spell ? What happens when some of them failed ? ). I don't like the idea of a fumble or fail magic tables but if you fail a spell there should be consequences.

 

In the End :

On 14/09/2016 at 4:49 PM, styopa said:

It's your board and your rules, so I guess you can declare something as "final" as you like and make it stick (here).

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by MJ Sadique
Unreadable

[Jeff]

Sorcery is a logical formula. Skill with the formula does not constrain how much psychic energy you can put into that formula - your psychic energy does.

Yes, this means that characters who do not know a spell particularly well (let's say they known a great new spell at 20%) can *in theory* cast really powerful spells and have a decent chance of casting them with ritual practices. But let's look at it in practice:

1. They need a lot of magic points. Say our munchkin sorcery has an 18 INT and 18 POW, has bound an 18 POW spirit into a crystal, has bound another 16 POW spirit into an animal. That's 52 magic points. At that point they can cast three really big spells without being drained.

2. This sorcerer can add a maximum of 18 intensity to the spell (Free INT in play). So that means maybe they can cast something doing a maximum of 4D6 damage (comparable to Sun Spear) but have a range of only 10M or an effect that lasts only 5 minutes. Or maybe they want a spell with a range of 65 km (of course there is the issue of targeting), but only does 1D3 damage or lasts only 5 minutes. Or maybe he wants a spell that lasts 2 years, but has minimal effect. 

Of course most sorcerers are going to want some combination of that - so maybe a ranged spell that does 3D6 damage (Thunderbolt), but has a range of 130 m. That's cool, although not quite as good as Rune magic (with a 160 meter range). Or maybe a spell that has a pretty good chance of stopping spirit magic and lasts all day? Cool. But for each of these, expect to spend 20+ points (remember a spell has a baseline cost as well).

3. It takes TIME. Say our sorcerer is really good with a spell (95%). A spell normally takes a full melee round to cast. But we are adding 18 magic points to make a point! OK, +2 strike rank per additional magic point used in the spell - that means it takes three full melee rounds to cast the spell, and then the spell takes effect at his DEX SR on the fourth round. And of course, he can't attack, parry, or dodge during this time. And if he gets damaged - concentration check. Gosh that is kind of limiting! Maybe I want a smaller spell.

Now maybe our sorcerer really isn't so good at his Conflguration spell. Say 20%. He's lucky - it is Fire Day (+10%) and Fire Season (+5%) and he's carrying around his burning lamp (+10%). That gets me to 45%. Not good enough - I'm not going to waste 3 rounds casting something I have a better than not chance of failing. I could meditate for an extra round. That gets me up to 50%. Not good enough. How about if I spend the next five minutes meditating? That gets me to 65%. That still is not good enough given the time. To get to 85%, I need to spend the next FIVE HOURS doing nothing but whatever my ritual practices are - yoga, making geometrical seals, chanting, standing on one foot, whatever. Swell, but by the time the spell is cast, the battle is over.

Meanwhile, Fenerasa the Rune Lord can cast Thunderbolt on the sorcerer. She sees he is doing his weird ritual. She has the same access to magic points, and can boost it with 18 mp (taking a round and a half) to make sure it blows through any defenses. ZOT! She does an average of 10.5 to his general hit points, and he needs to make a concentration roll. She has 6 rune points, so she can do it again. ZOT! the sorcerer is dead.

So let's go back to the munchkin. Let's try to have a spell that lasts all day. That adds 9 magic points to my spell. OK, so I could create a Spirit Ward spell that is going to protect me from pretty much any spirit for a day. But I have to cast the damn thing every day - and remove 20 magic points every day. And I better have mastered the Spirit Rune. What do you mean there is a Spirit Rune in sorcery? And if I want to cast Ward Against Weapons? Same deal, but I need to have mastered the Death Rune. And an all day Ward Against Weapons is less effective than the Spirit Ward. And costs another 20 magic points. That's fine I'll do it. Which leaves me with 12 magic points. Which also determines my magic resistance against other spells. 

In short, sorcerers are powerful if they have the time to be powerful. In direct power, their magic is comparable to that of Rune magic. What they have is greater flexibility, both in terms of range, duration, and strength, and in terms of what types of spells a sorcerer can potentially learn. But they need time. And lots of magic points.

[MJ Sadique]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Sorcery is a logical formula. Skill with the formula does not constrain how much psychic energy you can put into that formula - your psychic energy does.

Yes, this means that characters who do not know a spell particularly well (let's say they known a great new spell at 20%) can *in theory* cast really powerful spells and have a decent chance of casting them with ritual practices.

Ok, ... making spell is like imagine a polyhedron of (MP) faces, you can have all power you want but if your tiny brain can't process a 18 faces polyhedron, you just can't...unless you have the chance to be born with a big brain capacity, you'll do better/stronger spell than a simple minded one. The skill is just the ability to construct the spell, even if you're bad at it, as long as you can conceive the idea, you'll build what you want with enough time.

To sum up, the concept of spell casting in the world of Glorantha is :

-Imagination of the spell : Your choose the parameters of your spell, Intensity, duration and range (Player idea)

-Conception of the spell : (free) INT constrain you to how much complex you can make a spell (INT limitation)

-Construction of spell with the skill : the more time you have, the better chance you get ! (Skills & Time evolutions)

As I had suspect, Sorcery is not a field / Battle skill. a sorcerer are like alchimist that need preparations. Your skill percentage should be interpeted as the chance to do the spell in pressure, danger with time limit. Usually, they cast their spells with preparations and never failed them but if they are in hurry, they are almost screwed. So sorcerers are more wizards (wise -ard : a person wise to the excess...) : which mean "stupids malkioni pray ascended masters, wise one imitate them".

[Jeff]

Yes, that is pretty much spot on. However, I think sorcery is used in battle (at least in the West), but only if the front-line troops can give the wizards the time they need. What it is not good for is "skirmish magic" - the sort of stuff that happens when you get ambushed by trolls in the Rubble or wander into Bigclub the Giant.

[Pentallion]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes, that is pretty much spot on. However, I think sorcery is used in battle (at least in the West), but only if the front-line troops can give the wizards the time they need. What it is not good for is "skirmish magic" - the sort of stuff that happens when you get ambushed by trolls in the Rubble or wander into Bigclub the Giant.

That's not entirely true Jeff.  A wizard carries the least encumbrance which is very valuable when you're running away from Bigclub the Giant

[Atgxtg]

Of course if the sorcerer has time to prep he can put up some pretty good defenses that can help buy him the time to cast something big in battle. 

 

I'm sorry they kept free INT. If psychic energy is the limiting factor them I don't see why free INT should count. Plus it really limits advancement for anyone who isn't a genius. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Atgxtg

[RogerDee]

On 24/08/2016 at 1:13 AM, MOB said:

http://www.chaosium.com/blog/designing-the-new-runequest-part-11/

This is pretty much straight from Heroquest to be honest - a system I am using as I have as a whole gone totally freeform.

[MJ Sadique]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Of course if the sorcerer has time to prep he can put up some pretty good defenses that can help buy him the time to cast something big in battle.

I'm sorry they kept free INT. If psychic energy is the limiting factor them I don't see why free INT should count. Plus it really limits advancement for anyone who isn't a genius. 

I really don't like the term free INT but it is not the same as in older RQ(3), you have your full INT minus the number of Spirit (pokemon playing and singing around while you cast a spell) points. But I agree, the limitation of spells you can have in active memory is bad for low INT Character; But if you're stupid why are you trying to be a sorcerer -Magic Scientist- ?

It's like having "dumb and dumber" wanting to build a particle accelerator... That's not gonna happen even if Glorantha is a Fantastic World !!!

 

And when jeff speak about Psychic energy, he probably mean the Energy your psychic/INT can manipulate. Magic stored in crystal is raw, event if you have 52 MP, you cannot manipulate all of it. If your hand cannot grab 52 knives at the same time, why your mind will be able to manipulate as much MP as you want ? Limitations by INT is Logic for the Magic of the Kingdom of Logic XD. Hard Limitations of Spells, Runes and Techniques are good for players but not for masters who wants doing some hero(questing) game; But RQ 2.5 is not made for Glorantha's hero(questing) ..

Another subject :

I don't think magic in crystals are marked by a Rune, it's not a sorcery or divine energy but an all-purpose energy like in any human being. Personally, in RQ3 I always use/give Matrice of magic points but sometimes I specifically give them a Magist's Matrice of Magic which is usable with sorcery only or Uz's Dark sorcery if it's a Matrice of Darkness energy (magic points). In this peculiar case where the energy perfectly fit the magic, I don't count the time usually needed for incantation.

Question to Jeff  : Will sorcerer be able to craft magical items of enchantments will be add in another chapter/book ?

[Jeff]

Low INT characters simply aren't going to be able to mastery sorcerers. Heck, you need an INT of 13 to even grasp sorcery. Sorcery is philosophy, geometry, and physics. It is the magic of Intellect, from the realm of Logic, 

[Pentallion]

How will Men of All be handled?  They won't get Free Int bonuses for being so Brithini-like.  I imagine they get those bonuses in other ways?  Or they are completely different in their approach, sacrificing access to additional Free INT for access to the other class skills?

[Mankcam]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Sorcery is philosophy, geometry, and physics. It is the magic of Intellect, from the realm of Logic, 

I do like the requirements of Sorcery being linked to literacy and intelligence. It reinforces an academic and possibly also aesthetic approach to a complex body of magical knowledge. 

Given that the Zzaburi are the sage caste of the Malkioni (who conceptually remind me of the ancient Vedic Brahmin 'philosopher-priest' caste), it stands to reason that this magic would not be accessible by those of average to low intelligence, and also to those from more rudimentary educational backgrounds.

I wonder if Spirit Magic is also commonly used by some Malkioni? I can't remember if this was clarified earlier or not.

I think it goes without saying that Spirit Magic would be common in Honotheistic places like Safelster, due to some cultural 'cross-pollination' with people of non-Malkioni backgrounds.

However it also stands to reason that Malkioni from Rokari and Hrestoli backgrounds may also consider Spirit Magic a practical option for those unable to learn Sorcery. I could see folk of the Dronar caste as the most common practitioners of Spirit Magic in Malkioni society, especially as many of them may not be literate. In this case I wonder from whom it is taught? Would it be taught from the local Zzubari scribe? Or perhaps more informally through a hand-to-mouth approach amongst villagers?

In any case, I do like the restrictions on who can use Sorcery. I'm not sure I like the actual title of 'Free INT', I think another term could be more appropriate ( Arete?, Arcane Memory?, I dunno); but the actual game mechanic concept works for me.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Mankcam

[Jeff]

Spirit Magic is common throughout the West. The various castes and sub-castes have techniques for teaching appropriate charms. There is also worship of various Ascended Masters, but this is strongly discouraged by the Zzaburi,

[Atgxtg]

On 9/17/2016 at 10:22 AM, MJ Sadique said:

I really don't like the term free INT but it is not the same as in older RQ(3), you have your full INT minus the number of Spirit (pokemon playing and singing around while you cast a spell) points. But I agree, the limitation of spells you can have in active memory is bad for low INT Character; But if you're stupid why are you trying to be a sorcerer -

Because you come from a Civilized Culture and   it's your cultural magic option. 

[davecake]

There appears to be some terminology here that is confusing me. 

In HeroQuest Glorantha, everyone has access to 'Basic Magic', simple magic that is done by the heroes own power. Its a fairly simple form of magic (though it can be potent) and more or less available cross-culturally. 

And Spirit Magic is the name for magic performed by spirits, usually dependent on someone with the Spirit Rune to mediate with the spirit world. You get a spirit, put it in a charm, and then you have access to specific magic from that spirit. You need to be part of a Spirit Society, have access to Spirit Magic specialists (usually a Shaman), etc. 

It sounds like new RQ is planning to use the term Spirit Magic (and also charms) to refer to what used to be called Battle Magic in RQ2 (or Folk Magic in RQ6), and we've gone back to RQ3 terminology for RQ, even though the terminology in HQG is quite different? 

Or to put it differently, is the plan for RQ and HQ to use two different sets of terminology to refer to magic? Terminology in which most of what would be Spirit Magic in RQ would not be Spirit Magic in HQ?

[Mankcam]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Because you come from a Civilized Culture and   it's your cultural magic option. 

Looks like you can also choose Spirit Magic as an option

[Mankcam]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

There appears to be some terminology here that is confusing me. 

In HeroQuest Glorantha, everyone has access to 'Basic Magic', simple magic that is done by the heroes own power. Its a fairly simple form of magic (though it can be potent) and more or less available cross-culturally. 

And Spirit Magic is the name for magic performed by spirits, usually dependent on someone with the Spirit Rune to mediate with the spirit world. You get a spirit, put it in a charm, and then you have access to specific magic from that spirit. You need to be part of a Spirit Society, have access to Spirit Magic specialists (usually a Shaman), etc. 

It sounds like new RQ is planning to use the term Spirit Magic (and also charms) to refer to what used to be called Battle Magic in RQ2 (or Folk Magic in RQ6), and we've gone back to RQ3 terminology for RQ, even though the terminology in HQG is quite different? 

Or to put it differently, is the plan for RQ and HQ to use two different sets of terminology to refer to magic? Terminology in which most of what would be Spirit Magic in RQ would not be Spirit Magic in HQ?

I am assuming that the CRQ4  Spirit Magic is the same as it was in RQ3, which was renamed 'Common Magic' in MRQ and 'Basic Magic' in HQ.

I actually prefer calling it 'Common Magic' or 'Basic Magic', but I remember Jeff clarified that these spells are what he refers to as being 'Spirit Magic'.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Mankcam

[Jeff]

"Basic Magic" in HQG is just using your Runes to augment abilities, plus any breakout abilities you want from a Rune. It is intended to be broad, open-ended, and without a lot of categorization (or even explanation). It is NOT the same as Spirit Magic in RQ3 - in fact, what it "is" is pretty much left open (intentionally). In RuneQuest, you can also use your Runes to augment abilities, but that's called "Using Your Runes". 

[Mankcam]

Yes I made that mistake regarding Basic Magic, probably because RQ2 categorised 'Battle Magic' as an example of Basic Magic.  Calling the common magic Spirit Magic (like in RQ3) is reasonable, especially considering that it is also called this in HQG, keeping some setting consistency between the rule sets. 

But getting back to Sorcery, I think from what I have read so far it sounds pretty workable and feels that it belongs in this setting. It's got me interested, especially since I have a fascination with the contemporary portrayal of the Malkioni people.