Query: Isn't it all Rune Magic?

[Mankcam]

I get the impression that 'Rune Magic' is a term in the upcoming CRQ4. 

Back in RQ2 we had two forms of magic, Basic Magic ('Battle Magic') and Rune Magic (which was the 'high magic'). It made sense to call it Rune Magic in this context.

Then RQ3 comes along and Basic Magic is called Spirit Magic, and Rune Magic ports across to Divine Magic; and we also have Sorcery.

So whilst it wasn't implicitly stated in RQ3, I assumed that both Divine Magic and Sorcery were different forms of high magic that directly accessed the Runes; one with a faith-driven approach, and the other with a scholarly-driven approach. So in a sense they both felt like they were Rune Magic to me.

Then HW/HQ uses the terms Theism and Sorcery, which I assume portrayed the RQ3 Divine Magic and Sorcery.

So I'm confused at present whether Rune Magic is being used in CRQ4 as a term purely for the faith-driven high magic (Divine Magic, Theism) like it was in RQ2 , or whether it is a broad umbrella term which includes both Theism and Sorcery? 

I would prefer the later, as it doesn't make sense to specifically refer to the faith-driven form of magic as 'Rune Magic', considering that Runes are also firmly entrenched in the Sorcery system.

Isn't it all Rune Magic?

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Mankcam

[g33k]

I like the idea that "basic" magic is so workaday and tied-to-the-mundane-world that Runic affiliations are generally not required; but that the more-potent "Rune Magic" IS fundamentally tied to the Runes.  Is there both "Basic Sorcery" and "Rune Sorcery" ?  Or just one "basic magic" / "battle magic" ?

The biggest questions I have are regarding the practical differences:  is there anything that ONLY one or the other (Priestly/Sorcerer) magic can do?  Anything one or the other does with dramatically more effect, or dramatically easier?

And where does "Shamanism" fit into this mix?  I presume Daka Fal (for example) still has Shamanic instead Priestly mortal servants...  But that both priest & sorceror would be reluctant to face a potent elder of that tradition in a serious fight!

[Mankcam]

Yes it would be good if each system did a particular thing better than the other, that would also add a bit of flavour.

I have been assuming that that there is Basic Magic (Spirit Magic/Common Magic) which is an intuitive-approach to magic, available to all most people.

Then there is the more potent Rune Magic (Animism, Theism, Sorcery) which cover an animistic-driven approach, faith-driven approach, and academic-driven approach, respectively; and these are available to specialists, depending upon cultural background.

But that's just me trying to make sense of it all, and probably slightly contradictory to the actual canon. Which is what I'm trying to clarify.

 

 

[Jeff]

Three approaches to magic are presented in the new RuneQuest:

• Spirit magic. This is ubiquitous in Glorantha - and the same as Battle Magic in RQ2/spirit magic in RQ3. The magician focuses on the spirit and has it perform one simple task (like guide a sword in combat).
• Rune magic: This is the magic of the Rune cults. The magician must permanently offer part of her soul to the god - in exchange she can call upon some fragment of the god's power. 
• Sorcery: This magic is based on intellectual knowledge of the Runes and the various techniques by which they can be manipulated according to human will. 

[Mankcam]

Thanks for that Jeff. Yes those concepts are more or less how I was thinking except just one bit:

So I'm just wondering why is the faith-based magic is specifically named 'Rune Magic'?

It was called that in RQ2, but I assumed that was because it was the only magic in RQ2 that was implied to have such a direct access to Runes, and thus it was logical to name it Rune Magic back then.

However now we also have an intellectual-based magic which is directly involved with the Runes just as much (ie: Sorcery), and it seems odd to me that one magic style calls itself Rune Magic whilst the other style does not. They both sound like different forms of Rune Magic to me.

I think I became more familiar with the terms 'Divine Magic' and 'Theism', but I do like the sound of the name Rune Magic. I know you went with the term Rune Magic for faith-based magic in HQG, so I guess at least these new RQ rules will be consistent with the setting portrayed in HQG.

However it still strikes me a little unusual, for the said reasons. No big deal,  I think I'll have to tweak the YGMV rule on this one if it doesn't make sense for my players.

It's still sounding pretty good to me either way.

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mugen]

A few years ago, after MRQ1 release, I had the idea to base Sorcery on the Runic magic skills. Sorcery would have been a series of skills that would allow one to manipulate Runic power directly to create spells.

I never turned it into a functional ruleset, however...

And, no, it was not for Glorantha.

[MOB]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

However now we also have an intellectual-based magic which is directly involved with the Runes just as much (ie: Sorcery), and it seems odd to me that one magic style calls itself Rune Magic whilst the other style does not. They both sound like different forms of Rune Magic to me.

These terms are game constructs to help us understand the world. Sorcerers in the west might well refer to their magic as "Rune Magic", regarding the theist stuff as primitive mumbo jumbo that feebly attempts to attain what they do through rational intellectual means.  Likewise, and for opposite reasons, "sorcerer" is probably a pejorative term among theists.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Three approaches to magic are presented in the new RuneQuest:

If you overlay the HeroQuest approach as well, you get (I hope) another level of clarity:

• Spirit magic. Spirit Magic is something you have. This is ubiquitous in Glorantha - and the same as Battle Magic in RQ2/spirit magic in RQ3. The magician focuses on the spirit and has it perform one simple task (like guide a sword in combat).
• Rune magic: Rune Magic is some thing you are. This is the magic of the Rune cults. The magician must permanently offer part of her soul to the god - in exchange she can call upon some fragment of the god's power. 
• Sorcery: Sorcery is something you know. This magic is based on intellectual knowledge of the Runes and the various techniques by which they can be manipulated according to human will.
• Lunar magic. A Glamour is something you create.

Edited August 29, 2016 by David Scott

[Mankcam]

Thanks for the explanations everyone. I kinda knew most of this, and unfortunately they don't really answer my query why one form of magic is called Rune Magic when other magical styles also access the Runes just as much. 

I suspect it remains mainly because that is more in keeping with the original rules, which is reasonable given the game design aim is to remain close to RQ2 in many aspects.

No dramas, I appreciate all the responses anyway

Edited August 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

These terms are game constructs to help us understand the world. Sorcerers in the west might well refer to their magic as "Rune Magic", regarding the theist stuff as primitive mumbo jumbo that feebly attempts to attain what they do through rational intellectual means.  Likewise, and for opposite reasons, "sorcerer" is probably a pejorative term among theists.

I tend to feel that in the setting, everyone probably thinks of their higher magics as Rune Magic, regardless of whether they have learnt from theistic or sorcerous approaches. That loosely fits with what you are saying regarding the differences between game constructs and in-world perspectives.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[Atgxtg]

But if it's all Rune Magic, what about Draconic Magic? Or the Lunar Spirit-Sorcery hybrid?

[David Scott]

24 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

But if it's all Rune Magic, what about Draconic Magic? Or the Lunar Spirit-Sorcery hybrid?

Dragon magic is from the Dragonewt rune (or Dragon if you wish)

Lunar magic isn't really a Spirit-Sorcery hybrid - that was an RQ3 mess. Lunar magics come from the Moon rune and are called Glamours. As Lunar magic isn't really addressed in the new rules - HQG provides - 

• Lunar magic. A Glamour is something you create. 

[MJ Sadique]

On 29/08/2016 at 0:53 AM, Mankcam said:

I would prefer the later, as it doesn't make sense to specifically refer to the faith-driven form of magic as 'Rune Magic', considering that Runes are also firmly entrenched in the Sorcery system.

Isn't it all Rune Magic?

All runes are Magic and All Magic(s) are runes... There is two things :

The Mechanical rules of Spirit magic, Theist magic and Sorcery in RQ3 (RQ2 two mechanics, RQ3 three mechanics). 

The Principle behind them : Glorantha's Runes Interactions : a many magic as there are cultures :

1. Animist magic use Spirit magic Rules and sometimes Theist magic rules.
2. Theist magic use Spirit magic Rules as the god's servant's powers and Theist magic rules for the god direct power.
3. Sorcery magic (Magist) use Sorcery rules only
4. Dragon Magic use Theist magic rules and Specials dragonic skills (Dragonewt only)
5. Heroic and Saint's Magic use Spirit magic Rules as the god's servant's powers and Theist magic rules for the god direct power.
6. Mystical Magic (oriental) use Theist magic rules or mix of  Theist magic mechanics and Sorcery Spells.

There are others minors magic's rule in RQ3 describe as a mix of others rules (The Lunar Magic) or the Ki from Land of ninja that ca be used for Vormain...

The Runes Themselves are part of the later magic as the very principle of Glorantha : a Rune is not just a symbol but an elementary brick of the universe and Also a NEXUS of Power, knowledge and feelings and sometimes incarnate as an object of ultimate power. For Example, Death is an part of glorantha, the Nexus of power, the very knowledge of what death, sword mean (separation of two things : as body and soul) but also the very Sword of Humakt. Some others runes may have incarnate themselves like the "Spirit of Adventure" for the rune of movement (in the old Glorantha tabletop war game), or the horn of plenty which could be the Fertility rune incarnation...

 

[Mankcam]

My stance simply is that there isn't a clear reason to specifically call faith-driven magic 'Rune Magic' (as it was in RQ2), when other magic exists (like Sorcery) that is equally Rune Magic. Rune Magic should be a broad umbrella term to describe the more potent magic, of which there are several forms.   

Edited September 3, 2016 by Mankcam

[Jeff]

The God Learners called it Rune Magic, to be distinguished from humanistic magic (which is not as catchy a term as "sorcery" so I am not using it). To use Rune Magic, a magician wields some fraction of the cosmic Rune through sacrifice and devotion to a god that wields a larger part of that Rune.

And I am keeping the term. I especially do not like the terms Divine Magic or Theism, as I have seen it results in plenty of mistaken assumptions about the nature of Glorantha.

[MJ Sadique]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

To use Rune Magic, a magician wields some fraction of the cosmic Rune through sacrifice and devotion to a god that wields a larger part of that Rune.

There is an historical reason for the naming : The divine magic system was use for a lot of type of magic like I say but from RQ2 to herowars, the keepers of God's faith were RuneLord, the Gods of Glorantha mainly use or are described by Runes. Greg have mainly develloped the Sartar area where the god's magic dominated and where they claims to be the true holders of the runes. So naming Theism magic to "runic magic" because they always refers to runes is one main and good reason.

Logical reason : In the others part, Sorcery control the laws of univers (spells), Spirit magic gains help from spirits abilities (RQ3 spirits spells) and Theism magic gains help from a god's abilities. In the old times of RQ, theism magic could only access to some abilities of one god but not all... And after herowars generic system, it was more logical that a believer can access to almost all abilities of the god that he try to incarnate (All magic of orlanth adventurous for a adventurous believer of Orlanth). A better reason.

The "probably" actual reason : The RQ 2.5 system will get you all the abilities of a god but not some spells (RQ2/3) so I think they will state it by having control over ONE RUNE like "Wind Rune 12" to have 12pts of a deity's magic dedicace to the Rune fo Wind which will truly give the greatest reason... but I'm not sure of it (better ask jeff).

 

I accept the term technically but don't agree with it : For me, In term of Glorantha's lore, only Mystical Kralorela who directly access to the Runes without intermediate vendor/buyer may be call the true Rune Magic.

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by MJ Sadique
too much spelling error

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

The God Learners called it Rune Magic, to be distinguished from humanistic magic (which is not as catchy a term as "sorcery" so I am not using it). To use Rune Magic, a magician wields some fraction of the cosmic Rune through sacrifice and devotion to a god that wields a larger part of that Rune.

And I am keeping the term. I especially do not like the terms Divine Magic or Theism, as I have seen it results in plenty of mistaken assumptions about the nature of Glorantha.

ooh, I kinda like humanistic magic. Especially with draconic magic already established. Makes me think that the various species could have their own unique magic systems. 

[SDLeary]

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

ooh, I kinda like humanistic magic. Especially with draconic magic already established. Makes me think that the various species could have their own unique magic systems. 

It "would still be" rune magic though... Dragon, Man, Plant, etc. 

SDLeary

 

[davecake]

And as close as I can get to summarising mysticism in a single line is 'mystic magic is something you transcend'. Or a 'limit you have overcome'. Or event 'something you aren't'. its considerably subtler than other magic - and most people in the mystic areas East Isles or Kralorela use other magic (all three forms, animism sorcery and divine worship) for the day to day and mysticism is more of an aspirational goal that shapes their magic use rather than a practical day to day form of magic. 

Illumination as described in earlier RQ, and HQG, is more or less mysticism as understood by theists (this isn't a statement about the nature of Illumination, rather the limited rules understanding of it we have currently).