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David Scott

The Pavis Plan

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

Essentially, the history of the EWF would tend to put this in doubt, or at least indicate that there is a lot more going on. The EWF is known to use sorcery quite a bit (admittedly not as much as theism), and while Pavis sorcery doesn’t directly show draconic abilities, it certainly seems to be linked to draconic philosophy at some level, if nothing else being written in Auld Wyrmish (and of course, it’s explicitly not Malkioni and reads as blasphemous to them, should they be able to read it at all). 

Draconic magic is mystic. Antithesis is the wrong way to think of it - to the extent that you might think of other forms of magic as antithetical to dragon powers, draconic Illumination is the synthesis of these opposing ideas. This is almost explicit in the way we talk about theism and draconic illumination - Orlanth destroying the dragons becomes Orlanth gaining dragon insight. 

So - I think of EWF sorcery as being totally different to draconic magic (like dragonnewt powers), but amenable to synthesis by those who have undergone draconic illumination, in ways that are hard to explain to the unilluminated. 

I haven't seen anything within the EWF info that suggests that they were strong Sorcery users at all I am sorry to say.  They certainly employed sorcerers like Delecti, and it was certainly an age when the God Learners were dominating the world with sorcery, but the EWF were using massed triceratops units and dragon fire from dragon magic to control their empire, not sorcery.  That being said, the God Learners definitely infiltrated the Lightbringers at the time, and that is the likely source of the Lhankor Mhy Torvald Fragments, as it is documented that the God Learners liked to do Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy hero quests as they were comparatively low risk/high reward.

As for the synthesis of Sorcery and Draconic magic, the result is that they don't really work together at all.  Draconic magic suffers from all the spiritual attachments to intellect and reason, and Sorcery suffers from wasting time better spent on study of sorcery pursuing a fruitless and irrational non-human tradition.  There might be some value in using the Draconic Land Attunement for increasing sorcery spell range, but there are no records of it being done.

Edited by Darius West

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 You haven’t seen anything that suggests the EWF were strong sorcery users, other than all those sorcerers hangiing around the place doing stuff? 

Like the Lunars, they have multiple forms of magic within their system , all joined into one system by mystic insight, building a new magical world. 

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14 minutes ago, davecake said:

 You haven’t seen anything that suggests the EWF were strong sorcery users, other than all those sorcerers hanging around the place doing stuff? 

Like the Lunars, they have multiple forms of magic within their system , all joined into one system by mystic insight, building a new magical world. 

Okay, clearly you are pretty certain about this, so please, fill me in on where I can find the info?  What are your sources?

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3 hours ago, davecake said:

Essentially, the history of the EWF would tend to put this in doubt, or at least indicate that there is a lot more going on.

There is a lot more going on in the EWF and even in Orlanthland than just draconic mysticism. The Pavis Plan, the Remakers, the City of Ten Thousand Magicians (where Akgarbash of Laurmal probably lectured), the two people having the contest for becoming the oldest person alive...

 

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The EWF is known to use sorcery quite a bit (admittedly not as much as theism), and while Pavis sorcery doesn’t directly show draconic abilities, it certainly seems to be linked to draconic philosophy at some level, if nothing else being written in Auld Wyrmish

Only "Master of the Faceless King" is explicitely written in Auld Wyrmish, the other three or four grimoires are likely written in Old Pavic.

The Auld Wyrmish tainted Heortling dialect of Dragon Pass was the local language of the time, but is now called Old Pavic.

It will be interesting to speculate why a Greatway Jolanti subject to Mostali sorcery gets subject to a grimoire written in Auld Wyrmish. Normally, a tin dwarf wouldn't use a grimoire to control a Jolanti, and even less one in Auld Wyrmish.

But then, at some stage in their progression certain schools of draconic mysticism achieve mastery of sorcery. It is possible that this grimoire originated as some draconic master's study project which then somehow was inherited by Pavis.

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(and of course, it’s explicitly not Malkioni and reads as blasphemous to them, should they be able to read it at all). 

Every enemy magic is "blasphemous" to some extent. That doesn't stop wizards from studying them anywhere. Over-reliance on such alien magic is a sure sign of depravity, but to analyze and understand such magic is the duty of orthodox zzaburi.

 

Quote

Draconic magic is mystic. Antithesis is the wrong way to think of it - to the extent that you might think of other forms of magic as antithetical to dragon powers, draconic Illumination is the synthesis of these opposing ideas. This is almost explicit in the way we talk about theism and draconic illumination - Orlanth destroying the dragons becomes Orlanth gaining dragon insight. 

So - I think of EWF sorcery as being totally different to draconic magic (like dragonnewt powers), but amenable to synthesis by those who have undergone draconic illumination, in ways that are hard to explain to the inilluminated. 

Quite a few different schools and dojos in Dragon Pass are heavily influenced by Kralori draconic wisdom, which has collaborated with sorcery since the Godtime.

Both Shang-Hsa and Godunya appear to have taught in Kerofinela. That's how Isgangdrang inherited the Immanent Mastery cult.

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I haven't seen anything within the EWF info that suggests that they were strong Sorcery users at all I am sorry to say.  They certainly employed sorcerers like Delecti, and it was certainly an age when the God Learners were dominating the world with sorcery, but the EWF were using massed triceratops units and dragon fire from dragon magic to control their empire, not sorcery. 

The EWF didn't use sorcery for draconic warfare, that's clear. Neither did they send sorcerers to fight the Zistorites. But they certainly had use for sorcerers in their internal affairs, especially on the fringes where the dragon dream of Dragon Pass grows weaker.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That being said, the God Learners definitely infiltrated the Lightbringers at the time, and that is the likely source of the Lhankor Mhy Torvald Fragments, as it is documented that the God Learners liked to do Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy hero quests as they were comparatively low risk/high reward.

LM has long been suspected to be of western origin, even without God Learner intervention. The God Learners were hardly interested in his sorcery tricks, but they were eager to copy the knowledge collected in the Great Libraries of LM.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

As for the synthesis of Sorcery and Draconic magic, the result is that they don't really work together at all. 

RQ3 had a system called Godunya's Magic which (in RQ3) looked like sorcery but used draconic runepoints.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Draconic magic suffers from all the spiritual attachments to intellect and reason, and Sorcery suffers from wasting time better spent on study of sorcery pursuing a fruitless and irrational non-human tradition.  There might be some value in using the Draconic Land Attunement for increasing sorcery spell range, but there are no records of it being done.

As said above, mastery and then overcoming sorcery is an element of certain draconic paths.

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13 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a lot more going on in the EWF and even in Orlanthland than just draconic mysticism. The Pavis Plan, the Remakers, the City of Ten Thousand Magicians (where Akgarbash of Laurmal probably lectured), the two people having the contest for becoming the oldest person alive...

Sure, I don't doubt it.  As to people from anywhere outside Brithos trying to be the oldest person alive ...

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Only "Master of the Faceless King" is explicitely written in Auld Wyrmish, the other three or four grimoires are likely written in Old Pavic.

The Auld Wyrmish tainted Heortling dialect of Dragon Pass was the local language of the time, but is now called Old Pavic.

Yes, Old Pavic does relate to Auld Wyrmish from the EWF.  Agreed.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

It will be interesting to speculate why a Greatway Jolanti subject to Mostali sorcery gets subject to a grimoire written in Auld Wyrmish. Normally, a tin dwarf wouldn't use a grimoire to control a Jolanti, and even less one in Auld Wyrmish.

But then, at some stage in their progression certain schools of draconic mysticism achieve mastery of sorcery. It is possible that this grimoire originated as some draconic master's study project which then somehow was inherited by Pavis.

Okay, now this is beginning to sound more plausible, give that the plan was to use the giants of the Rockwoods to become the wingspan of the "cosmic mega dragon" they hoped to create.  Clearly Giants could be controlled by sorcery, but not Dragon Magic, and given they were to be a major skeletal structural element, either the giants were going to have to be Draconized, or sorcery would need to be employed.  (We never hear what the Mostali thought of the EWF Mega Dragon plan).  Still, this isn't "set in stone", it is merely plausible.  If that's Draconic sorcery, it's not impressive, even if there is no free Int requirement.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Every enemy magic is "blasphemous" to some extent. That doesn't stop wizards from studying them anywhere. Over-reliance on such alien magic is a sure sign of depravity, but to analyze and understand such magic is the duty of orthodox zzaburi.

Agreed.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Quite a few different schools and dojos in Dragon Pass are heavily influenced by Kralori draconic wisdom, which has collaborated with sorcery since the Godtime.

Both Shang-Hsa and Godunya appear to have taught in Kerofinela. That's how Isgangdrang inherited the Immanent Mastery cult.

It is a large and worrying blow when the EWF is adopting  a cobbled together God Learner Draconic Hsunchen cult in place of the "real thing".  Where would I find a reference to Isgangdrang bringing the Immanent Mastery Cult to Dragon Pass and the EWF?

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

The EWF didn't use sorcery for draconic warfare, that's clear. Neither did they send sorcerers to fight the Zistorites. But they certainly had use for sorcerers in their internal affairs, especially on the fringes where the dragon dream of Dragon Pass grows weaker.

I have no problem with the EWF using sorcerous mercenaries at the fringe of their empire.  What I was concerned about is that I had missed some sort of fundamental and central ambit of major policy in the EWF that was sorcerous. The potential role for sorcery in the creation of the Rockwoods Dragon meets that, but it must be inferred, for it isn't explicitly stated.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

LM has long been suspected to be of western origin, even without God Learner intervention. The God Learners were hardly interested in his sorcery tricks, but they were eager to copy the knowledge collected in the Great Libraries of LM.

Agreed.  It's an open secret.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

RQ3 had a system called Godunya's Magic which (in RQ3) looked like sorcery but used draconic runepoints.

On the contrary, these were not Draconic rune points, but Man-God rune points.  What Godunya's Cult represents is a synthesis of sorcery and theism.  His magic provides loyal worshipers with access to the Emperor's sorcery, for he is not a god.  I suspect the forthcoming rules for heroes in the new RQ:RiG rules will cover this.  Godunya is reverenced and adored, and is thus able to offer his blessings.  In what way are we seeing any Draconic element at play in what Godunya offers?  He himself may be in touch with his dragon self, but he doesn't offer any of that to his followers.  It should also be pointed out that Godunya magic is appallingly weak.  The amount of sacrificed POW needed to duplicate what even a weak sorcerer produces with free Int and MP makes Godunya a very unattractive prospect for a player character.  If this is Draconic Sorcery, it isn't great.

Edited by Darius West

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33 minutes ago, Darius West said:
14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Both Shang-Hsa and Godunya appear to have taught in Kerofinela. That's how Isgangdrang inherited the Immanent Mastery cult.

It is a large and worrying blow when the EWF is adopting  a cobbled together God Learner Draconic Hsunchen cult in place of the "real thing".  Where would I find a reference to Isgangdrang bringing the Immanent Mastery Cult to Dragon Pass and the EWF?

Heortling Mythology p.138 mentions the Path of Immanent Mastery. Isgangdrang's personal path was called Right Left-Hand Path and was another of those short-cuts.

About ShangHsa in Dragon Pass, that should be in here:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/shang-hsa/

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I have no problem with the EWF using sorcerous mercenaries at the fringe of their empire.  What I was concerned about is that I had missed some sort of fundamental and central ambit of major policy in the EWF that was sorcerous. The potential role for sorcery in the creation of the Rockwoods Dragon meets that, but it must be inferred, for it isn't explicitly stated.

The pyramid-scheme techniques employed by the EWF in its later years look a lot like the chain-of-veneration techniques employed by the more hierarchical Malkioni sects. "A lot like" as in it's functionally indistinguishable.

The widespread adoption of (Sorcerous) tricks and shortcuts like this and Immanent Mastery-style methods ("Enlightenment is hard, what if I could just magically transform myself into an enlightened being? Oh, hey, Kwl Pwrz!") are the essence of the false-path entanglement problems that marked the end of true transcendent attainment among the EWF.

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, these were not Draconic rune points, but Man-God rune points.  What Godunya's Cult represents is a synthesis of sorcery and theism.  His magic provides loyal worshipers with access to the Emperor's sorcery, for he is not a god.  ...  Godunya is reverenced and adored, and is thus able to offer his blessings.  ...   It should also be pointed out that Godunya magic is appallingly weak.  The amount of sacrificed POW needed to duplicate what even a weak sorcerer produces with free Int and MP makes Godunya a very unattractive prospect for a player character.  If this is Draconic Sorcery, it isn't great.

For myself, I wouldn't put too much weight in the calibration of niche RQ3 mechanics when drawing inferences about subtle setting matters.

However, the overall setup you describe there made a lightbulb go off in my head: Belintar

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As far as the EWF using sorcery goes, from History of the Heortling Peoples

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It was Orlanthi-like in social structure and understanding, but different in its magic source. Clans of people were still of primary importance, and this vast Ring used methods handed down from ancestors for organizing tribes, temples and peoples. But instead of Orlanth and Ernalda the people worshipped dragons with sacrifices, wild dances and organized prayers (i.e.- theist, animist and sorcerous) that prepared them to enter the mystical sects.

The EWF certainly used its dragonnewt allies and their dinosaurs in war, and their mystics gained access to the sort of draconic magic normally only used by dragonnewts once they had experienced draconic illumination. But the EWF was an Empire, not just a mystic sect, and the Empire developed its own magical techniques of all kinds, very much including its own sorcery. The mystics sat at the top of the pyramid and directed things, but the magical work needed to perform complex magic on an imperial scale was very much mostly performed by the un-enlightened for practical reasons (just as the Lunar Empire has grand magical projects that rely mostly on the old Dara Happan magic and people). 

 

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I would absolutely not put much faith in RQ3 niche mechanics, especially as they are likely to be gone in RQG. I do not think the RQ3 Red Goddess magic will see a comeback, and I suspect likewise with the Godunya magic. We know a lot more about both sorcery and mysticism than we did back then. 

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6 hours ago, davecake said:

 We know a lot more about both sorcery and mysticism than we did back then. 

Well, as they say in Kralorela "Good on ya mate!"

 

(literally waited 30+ years for that one)

Edited by Pentallion
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On 12/7/2018 at 12:45 AM, Pentallion said:

Well, as they say in Kralorela "Good on ya mate!"

 

(literally waited 30+ years for that one)

Yeah, I think we've all made adept by now, huh?

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