Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 4 - Dragonewts

[David Scott]

Dragonewts section comments here!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6519-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-4/

Errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6432-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-4-errors/

[Oracle]

This is a heavily enhanced version of the Dragonewts chapter in the Introduction to Glorantha Book from the RuneQuest III Gamemaster Box. Interesting: the Dragonet (the fifth stage of a Dragonewt, still called so in Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes) has become the Inhuman King.

The Dragonewts and the Unity Council sidebar text was already available in the Dragonewt chapter of the Sartar:Companion as well as Communicating with Dragonewts boxed text and the Duty to Repay Favors paragraph in the Dragonewt Code of Ethics boxed text.

A history from the point of view of Dragonewts! That’s just great, although far from complete (e.g. one of the reasons for the Dragonkill, the destruction of Dragonewt nests by humans is mentioned in the short history section in HeroQuest Glorantha, but not here).

The Dragonewt Behavior section as well as the Dragonewt Code of Ethics boxed text contain some good hint, how to handle Dragonewts as a Gamemaster.

Most interesting: the Dragonewt Skulls document. It contradicts in some points the descriptions in the text (using term like Phase One and Phase Two instead of Stage One and Stage Two, Stage Three Dragonewts being carnivorous vs. being omnivorous, and Phase Two Dragonewts being omnivorous vs. being carnivorous), but so far I do not see these as errors in the Guide but as errors in the document fragment. Would like to see the full work.

In Dragonpass there is Dragon’s Eye and eight smaller cities/nests. Which are these cities? High Wyrm (#4), Contemplative Rest (#7) and Ghosts-Around (#8) are mentioned in the Sartar Companion. Which are the others?

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Oracle said:

In Dragonpass there is Dragon’s Eye and eight smaller cities/nests. Which are these cities? High Wyrm (#4), Contemplative Rest (#7) and Ghosts-Around (#8) are mentioned in the Sartar Companion. Which are the others?

Five smaller cities, including Giant Bones, and Stones over Souls forming a Dragonewt Rune, according to the Argan Argar Atlas, page 29. If there are three more, they are too small to appear on the map.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Oracle said:

This is a heavily enhanced version of the Dragonewts chapter in the Introduction to Glorantha Book from the RuneQuest III Gamemaster Box. Interesting: the Dragonet (the fifth stage of a Dragonewt, still called so in Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes) has become the Inhuman King.

Which was an enhancement from the original article in WF14, though the 5th stage there was the Inhuman King. Glad to see it revert back to the original title.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Five smaller cities, including Giant Bones, and Stones over Souls forming a Dragonewt Rune, according to the Argan Argar Atlas, page 29. If there are three more, they are too small to appear on the map.

On the original WBRM map, the Dragon's Eye was 3 hexes, each numbered, and so formed 3 of the cities.  I believe that is the complete known set.

[jajagappa]

Love the picture from the Dragonewt Expedition.  The article about Master Lord-Prince of the Four Jewels was originally in WF14 and it's great to finally get an image of some of these figures.  The coloring really stands out.  (And nothing like a couple of ducks to talk with a crested dragonewt!)

The dragonewt skull is a nice addition (and reminiscent of the old Trollpak).  The incorrect association of stage 2 and 3 with omnivores and carnivores is just the type of in-game detail that can come from relying on suspect LM documents.  The discussion on sound/language and sight is interesting, however, the inclusion of "airborne particles" seems too modern, not Gloranthan.

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Oracle said:

Most interesting: the Dragonewt Skulls document. It contradicts in some points the descriptions in the text (using term like Phase One and Phase Two instead of Stage One and Stage Two, Stage Three Dragonewts being carnivorous vs. being omnivorous, and Phase Two Dragonewts being omnivorous vs. being carnivorous), but so far I do not see these as errors in the Guide but as errors in the document fragment. Would like to see the full work.

It may not even be an error.  The document is from Slontos so the Dragonewts studied would be from Ryzel.  They were slaves of Ganji who settled in Maniria to fight for Palangio.  Who knows what changes he may have made in them?

[metcalph]

p75 - one of the vagaries about Dragonewts is the status of the Inhuman King.  Some sources suggest that there is only one Inhuman King while the Guide has another Inhuman King in Ryzel whereas nobody else (Kralorela, Ralios, Teleos) has any.  

p76 - Looking ahead, I see the status of inhuman kings is somewhat more qualified.  The text on Ralios speaks of rulers rather than an inhuman king although the Ralian Inhuman King is mentioned as been slain by Alakoring in the Guide p392.  The text on Ryzel speaks of "its own version of an Inhuman King" suggesting that it is not a real Inhuman King.  Likewise the Ralian mention can be spun by having *the* Inhuman King turn up in Ormsland to defend its colony.  Alakoring kills it and a large number of full priests such that it recedes into Barbarism.  The new Inhuman King pursues a different policy allowing the Ralian Dragonewts to find their own way rather than close supervision.  That leaves the Manirian Inhuman King as an untrustworthy imitation.

p76 - I would really like to know how the Dragonewts got to Teleos and why they have no Inhuman King.

 

 

[jrutila]

The dragonewts have always been the mystical race in Glorantha. Even reading through this chapter they still remain that way and I think it is good. A Dragonewt can do practically anything and only explanation needed is that "it is a dragonewt, they do weird stuff". The pics are really cool and I think the looks of Dragonewts has been most concise throughout all the publications when comparing to other races (dwarves, ducks, elves...).

The Code of ethics box was new to me and shed some light to the way of living as a Dragonewt. The Duty to Repay Favors gave me an instant plot hook idea of accidentally doing a favor for a Dragonewt and then handling the complications that arise when it is returning the favor.

[Joerg]

Ok, here are my observations from the read-through:

Dragonewt history covers only the history of Dragon Pass, nothing about the other regions like Peloria, Ralios, Maniria, Kralorela/Fethlon and Teleos. Or any answer whether there have ever been newts in Pamaltela, the West, or Vithela/the East Isles.

The dragon chapter mentions extinct Pamaltelan dragonewts both in the dinosaur speculation and under the Stoorworm enty. The only other slightly draconic creatures other than the stoorworms and the fiwan dinos in Slon and possibly Wongarissi are the pyrohydras.

 

I was surprised that a newly transformed former dragonewt would be considered sexually immature, but that might be a topic for the Dragons section. It would be nice to have a map of such clutches with “dates” for the laying and the destruction.

Inhuman kings: The Kralori example seems to indicate that the dragonewts can make do with another Bhodisatva-type True Dragon immanent in the world.

I do wonder how the Kralori 'newts fared during the reign of the False/New Dragon’s Ring.

I also wonder about the rumored Kralori dragon hsunchen. What size and kind of dragons would they have bonded with? Probably not necessarily the standard, bat-winged western type that the dragonewts emulate, too. The Twin Phoenixes of the East Isles are draconic, too, aren't they?

 

I wonder whether those barbarian dragonewt clutches really are barred from rebirth, or whether it simply takes them a whole lot longer to re-hatch after their mobile self has been hatched.

Or, in other words, does a barbarian dragonewt nest egg die when its mobile stage dies in the absence of an inhuman king, or does it simply stay dormant?

 

I also wonder whether a physical dragonewt can survive the destruction of its egg, and how that affects this individual. I still harbor the theory that the physical dragonewts are the immature equivalent of dream dragons, produced by the egg one at a time. I have debated with Sandy Petersen whether there is a feedback between the physical dragonewt’s experiences and the egg/its next incarnation at all, but there seems to be some spiritual debt, and a spiritual tie to its former skin if that is prepared as a dragonewt armor for humans.

 

Dragonbone appears to be a metal- analog that can be magically attuned to the draconic soul of its user. I wonder whether retrieving one’s dragonbone implements lost through death or utuma creates something of a first obligation for the newly hatched ‘newt.

[scott-martin]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Dragonewt history covers only the history of Dragon Pass,

Used up all my likes again for the day but I'll be back. Like the aldryami color wars and other arcane lore, discerning and ambitious people could dig under the variant evolutionary choices the estranged dragonewt communities represent and come up with some vibrant insights. MGF implies that newts in those regions don't universally consider themselves inferior in their "barbarian" existence -- even if they're slowly dying out, their persistence demonstrates that the experience is valuable and the utuma is not yet ready.

For example, we may find that the Kralorelan community comes and goes. 

There may be an entire draconic alchemy -- or multiple alchemies -- built around dragonbone instead of the metals. 

[davecake]

My favourite thing about this chapter is the opening sentence is contradictory - it calls the dragonnewts 'the eldest creatures', then says they are descended from dragons, which would make the dragons the eldest. An excellent way to start. 

[davecake]

Is there any further information about dragonnewt tribal genealogies other than this snippet about the Wondrous Mother of Many anywhere? 

And is there any more info about All Eyes Open But One? 

Resistance in Strength - is this reflected directly in other Kralorelan myth? Though it seems mostly connected to Hsunchen rather than Kralori culture myth. 

Dragonnewt ethics - this implies that a form of ancestor worship is both part of dragonnewt religion, and dragonnewt magical practice. Both are news to me. The comment about 'being outside of the cycle of reincarnation' is an odd way of putting  - a dragonnewt that is in the cycle of reincarnation is not contactable as a spirit because it is probably incarnate and walking around. 

Scout dragonnewts are vegetarians, but devote most of their time to small game? In fact, in general the totally confusing and contradictory stuff on diet,with pg 75 directly contradicted by pg 71. This is just annoying and confusing to me (though I'm going with pg 75).

[davecake]

I am glad that dragon magic remains essentially the same as in previous editions, as do dragonnewt weapons. A few more details would be nice - but really, you could pretty quickly adapt the rules in WF #14. I like the idea that while everyone else is trying to increase their passions and runes, Dragonnewts are trying to hard to reduce and eliminate them. 

[davecake]

From the numbers, the dragonnewt culture described in this chapter is the *minority* dragonnewt culture - most dragonnewts alive are Kralorelan, and revere the Dragon Emperor. Of course, this proves nothing about its validity etc. 

The sections about Kralorela do seem to imply that humans can become dragons and gain access to draconic magic. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Is there any further information about dragonnewt tribal genealogies other than this snippet about the Wondrous Mother of Many anywhere? 

There is quite similar text, possibly based on snippets of old material by Greg, in the Mongoose dragonewt splatbook by @Loz. Other than that, none that I am aware of - I didn't have her in my old index, and I did research dragonewts in particular at various occasions and usually jotted down even exotic sources when doing so, excluding the MRQ sources (because I didn't have them back then except for Glorantha the Second Age, which left me agape at some of the descriptions).

1 hour ago, davecake said:

 

Resistance in Strength - is this reflected directly in other Kralorelan myth? Though it seems mostly connected to Hsunchen rather than Kralori culture myth. 

The population numbers seem to reflect this, but then the numbers for dragon pass allow exactly 2500 'newts per city (7500 for the triple city of Dragon's Eye), and omit the Elder Wilds presence.

But then, according to Sandy, this could mean that the Kralori 'newts have been a lot less successful achieving True Dragonhood than the Kerofinelan ones. The Kerofinelan ones certainly had the evolutionary pressure, with the total annihilation of their population in central Peloria and Saird, but on the other hand the EWF might have accelerated their spiritual progress while it lasted, too.

Ralios has thrice the number of 'newts than Dragon Pass?

Interestingly, the Dragon Pass dragonewt population at the Dawn was 5000, according to p.708. Does this mean that a great many eggs remained unhatched at the Dawn, or does this mean that the 'newts had a population explosion like everyone else after the Dawn, with new eggs appearing everywhere?

It does appear that one of the first activities newly hatched True Dragons do is to have sex, and to lay a cluster of immature eggs. If so, does the high number of Kralori newts indicate slow progress, or rather lots of successful True Dragons getting lusty (or keeping at it for much longer)? We know that there was considerable "emigration" of 'newts from Dragon Pass, both into Peloria and into Ralios, and apparently to Ryzel, too.
 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Dragonnewt ethics - this implies that a form of ancestor worship is both part of dragonnewt religion, and dragonnewt magical practice. Both are news to me.

This much can also be found in the Mongoose book, which makes me guess that LOZ did have some privileged access to notes by Greg, and made good use of it.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The comment about 'being outside of the cycle of reincarnation' is an odd way of putting  - a dragonnewt that is in the cycle of reincarnation is not contactable as a spirit because it is probably incarnate and walking around. 

A 'newt spending time in the egg isn't available, either. But then I don't think that the egg ever is unoccupied - the true, dreaming self of the future dragon always resides in there, only its dream is walking the waking world.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Scout dragonnewts are vegetarians, but devote most of their time to small game? In fact, in general the totally confusing and contradictory stuff on diet,with pg 75 directly contradicted by pg 71. This is just annoying and confusing to me (though I'm going with pg 75).

The comments on p.71 are confused. They are also a scholarly, in-world document. Let's just say that many Lhankor Mhy document collections see less redaction than private Glorantha websites.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I am glad that dragon magic remains essentially the same as in previous editions, as do dragonnewt weapons. A few more details would be nice - but really, you could pretty quickly adapt the rules in WF #14. I like the idea that while everyone else is trying to increase their passions and runes, Dragonnewts are trying to hard to reduce and eliminate them. 

Possibly after mastering them, if Ingolf's school of mysticism got its approach at least partially right. Mystical awareness (acquired the hard way, rather than through flashes of illumination) isn't about ignorance of the world, but about understanding the world, and putting that understanding aside for the real meanings.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The sections about Kralorela do seem to imply that humans can become dragons and gain access to draconic magic. 

So did the EWF, and at least Obduran proved that a human could follow the dragonewt way in addition to Orlanth's ways, become a True Dragon within one (quite extended) lifetime, and pass on beyond the world.

It isn't clear whether Obduran was the only human ever to go all the draconic way, or whether he was the only human doing so without renouncing his Orlanthi nature on the way. Before Obduran, the draconic mystics of Dragon Pass and environs spent better than a century at war with the Council of Orlanthland. I would hazard that a significant majority of draconic mystic masters never sought the entanglement with the Council but kept focussed on their own meditations and advances. Their pupils may have been a different issue.

Dragon Magazine #208 had a RQ3 write-up of a Gloranthan dragon by Sandy Petersen, Cerulean Glory Oversees Tides, which indicated that this was a EWF human who made it to dragonhood before 1042 and who flew with the other dragons in the Dragonkill War.

https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=8267

No idea how canonical that is, but the possibility of EWF humans achieving dragonhood and staying around as True Dragons or even just lesser dragons- might be worth considering anyway. The statted individual was impressive when compared to its D&D colleagues, but in Gloranthan draconic scales I found it rather weak.

On the other hand, no conclusive research appears to have gone into the origin of the dragon which rose in 1602 to drive off the Crimson Bat at Boldhome in 1602, unless that was what Garstal had been doing. A Great Dragon like those manifested by at least four of the Third Council leaders would have been sufficient for that task.

 

Kralori humans may have a special predilection towards becoming dragons through their (rumored) dragon hsunchen ancestry.

 

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

My favourite thing about this chapter is the opening sentence is contradictory - it calls the dragonnewts 'the eldest creatures', then says they are descended from dragons, which would make the dragons the eldest. An excellent way to start. 

This just means that dragons are not creatures ...

[davecake]

Thanks for the dragon article link, Joerg!