Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 7 - Third Age

[David Scott]

Third Age section comments here!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6602-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-7/

Deep Discussion: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6603-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-7-deep-discussion/

Errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6552-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-7-errors/

Here's Jeff's map for the Birth of the Red Goddess:

Edited August 7, 2017 by David Scott

[jrutila]

This age is about the Red Goddess and her influence. But, judging from the used space, the opening gets more attention. Is it because there is so much more material about Lunar Empire elsewhere (in the Guide and other material) or is the opening actually so important event? We know this age will end in the Hero Wars and the opening doesn't play any role at that point.

I have always wondered the bans around Glorantha a little. At some point I thought the map maker run out of ideas and just drew a large area labeled "Under the ban". Or is there something else with these?

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, jrutila said:

This age is about the Red Goddess and her influence. But, judging from the used space, the opening gets more attention. Is it because there is so much more material about Lunar Empire elsewhere (in the Guide and other material) or is the opening actually so important event? We know this age will end in the Hero Wars and the opening doesn't play any role at that point.

The influence of the Red Goddess is limited to Peloria and its direct neighbors, except for a certain immortal gardener in Kralorela and a weird missionary somewhere in the East Isles. The Red Moon apparently has links to eastern Afadjann with the Yranian Leapers, but that event is hardly described, and starts only 66 years later.

The Closing is a good device to sum up the most recent developments around the world. Most other events are dealt with in the regional and local history sections.

 

2 minutes ago, jrutila said:

I have always wondered the bans around Glorantha a little. At some point I thought the map maker run out of ideas and just drew a large area labeled "Under the ban". Or is there something else with these?

These are the easter eggs of the Hero Wars. Which other bans do you mean? The weird concept of the Blank Lands in the Genertela Box (and the much weirder concept of including Balazar, one of the best developed regions of Glorantha, under this heading) has been abandoned.

There is the magically enclosed land of Tork where Jannisor managed to trap the Mad Sultan (even though the Sultan and a portion of his followers excaped into Dorastor). Other than that and the remaining closed-off territories in Fronela, I am not aware of further such lands.  

[metcalph]

The biggest omission for me in this section would be the story of Sheng Seleris and the Celestial Empire considering that it had a massive impact.

Secondly would have to be a narrative history of the Holy Country.

[jrutila]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

These are the easter eggs of the Hero Wars. Which other bans do you mean? The weird concept of the Blank Lands in the Genertela Box (and the much weirder concept of including Balazar, one of the best developed regions of Glorantha, under this heading) has been abandoned.

It might've been a flashback from the Genertela Box times. Glad to hear there is no more of these bans.

[Joerg]

The Blank Lands never were supposed to be banned - quite to the contrary, they were reserved for your campaign's world building.

But maybe the reactions to Genertela Box showed that people treated the rest of the world just like Blank Lands were supposed to be treated, with intense sub-creation, and so some more useful information was given for those places. I'm especially pleased about the information revealed about Sulayz in Umathela.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The biggest omission for me in this section would be the story of Sheng Seleris and the Celestial Empire considering that it had a massive impact.

I agree. Sheng's realm covered several geographic regions, and none of these regions does his empire justice. Kralori bureaucrats in Peloria, Pelorian workers and a former Red Emperor in northern Kralorela...

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Secondly would have to be a narrative history of the Holy Country.

That's (apart from Dormal) a strictly regional history. Tanisor finally being cut from Ralios and claimed as heartland Seshnela is another big event in the early Third Age. Carmania gets hardly any press either in this or the previous age.

There appears to be a pattern in Malkionism - at the start of a historical age, Henotheist/Stygian movements are strong, then about 150-200 years into the age a counter-movement of monotheistic purism, while at the end of the historical age the henotheistic movements grow more dominant. The Third Age starts with a failed attempt to reinstate the Autarchy (Jorstland lasted for a generation or so after the Halwal-supported fragmented Arkati revivalists had diminished the Kingdom of Seshnela into a memory), the Carmanian Malkioni element lost out to the Bull Shahs (who still were happy to have sorcerers at their beck, though), and the Manirian road continues the impure Malkionism. Jonat's kingdom is another case of sorcerers and priests in a single realm. Loskalm and coastal southern Seshnela, especially Pithdaros, are the main centers of uncompromising Hrestolism.

[metcalph]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I agree. Sheng's realm covered several geographic regions, and none of these regions does his empire justice. Kralori bureaucrats in Peloria, Pelorian workers and a former Red Emperor in northern Kralorela...

The Red Gardener of Kuchawn is not canon (no matter how much I wish it so)

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's (apart from Dormal) a strictly regional history.

The Holy Country will have been hugely influential in Dragon Pass, Maniria and the Wastelands.  Belintar didn't send a fleet to Teshnos out of the blue (although admittedly he could have been trying to reach home) so there would have been a useful history to be written there.

 

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Red Gardener of Kuchawn is not canon (no matter how much I wish it so)

Is he anti-canonical?

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Holy Country will have been hugely influential in Dragon Pass, Maniria and the Wastelands.  Belintar didn't send a fleet to Teshnos out of the blue (although admittedly he could have been trying to reach home) so there would have been a useful history to be written there.

I'll be the first to wish to have a more thorough world history written in the style of Uz Lore, covering all major developments, nicely mapped. I estimate such a project to at least 200 pages (including maps, timelines, regional dynasties). Maybe we should start producing such a thing.

[Akhôrahil]

I had no idea that Prax was part of the Seleric Empire (or Balazar, for that matter). That must have gone over well with the Praxian nomads, being ruled by filthy horse-riders!

Also, it's super impressive how the Lunars just smashed Sheng Seleris and his empire, given the relative sizes – not like in our world where some battles only put a break on things and then dynastic concerns screwed up further Mongol expansion.

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I had no idea that Prax was part of the Seleric Empire (or Balazar, for that matter). That must have gone over well with the Praxian nomads, being ruled by filthy horse-riders!

The Praxians weren't too oppressed.  Sheng Seleris was quite happy for them to supply troops for a naval invasion of Vormain.  

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, it's super impressive how the Lunars just smashed Sheng Seleris and his empire, given the relative sizes – not like in our world where some battles only put a break on things and then dynastic concerns screwed up further Mongol expansion.

The Lunars smashed Sheng in Peloria.  Undoubtedly killing him was a Big Deal but they had the help of Godunya.  As soon as Sheng was gone, the other civilized peoples (Kralorela, Teshnos, Ignorance?) and Barbarians (Praxians, Trolls?) felt free to push back.

 

[Akhôrahil]

Who is/was the God of the Silver Feet? Local version of Issaries?

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Who is/was the God of the Silver Feet? Local version of Issaries?

So I've been told.  However I'm always open for a more interesting alternative.

[lokamayadon]

I am always thinking of the origins of thered goddess. A moon goddess killed during the darkness ? Or somethink else ? I am thinking of some links with Tylenea for whom the destiny is not clear

[metcalph]

34 minutes ago, lokamayadon said:

I am always thinking of the origins of thered goddess. A moon goddess killed during the darkness ? Or somethink else ? I am thinking of some links with Tylenea for whom the destiny is not clear

The Moon Goddess killed in Darkness is the tale the Lunars tell curious listeners.  It refers to Lesilla the Goddess of the Blue Moon Plateau (before the Trolls came) or Gerra, an eternally tortured Goddess.  Although these Goddesses died, they are not the origins of the Red Goddess but manifestations of her in the past.

In origin, the Red Goddess is an unknowable unknown.  Her story of degradation, death and rebirth is the means by which she makes herself and her mysteries known to mortals.  

[davecake]

I'm struck by the certainty that the Triolini must know more about The Closing than they are letting on. All those sea monsters must be understood more by them than by boaters. 

[Joerg]

The Triolini are to those sea monsters like dark trolls or trollkin are to Dehori and bigger Darkness demons - the lesser, mortal kin, limited in understanding.

Many of those monsters are likely to be denizens of the middle depths or of the deep, perhaps even the underdeep, summoned to the surface to act as guardians of the interdict of the Closing. They are as far outside of the regular frame of reference of the air-breathing Triolini half-breeds as Phoenixes and Luxites are out of the frame of reference of urban or rural Dara Happans. They will know rites to appease or worship them, but they won't necessarily understand them, let alone be able to influence them.

I see a possibilty that the triolini communicate with currents and even waves in a manner similar to the Aldryami communication with the Forest, or the Forest Song. It might be a communications by touch or pressure, possibly subliminal. This would sweep the merfolk up in activities of the waters more often than vice versa.

If you look at the merkings like Terthinus or Ermanthver, these are Manthi rather than Triolini.

[Oracle]

Third Age Timeline - I

Never realized that until now: the Red Moon was already in the sky long before chief Colymar led his clan into the Dragon Pass region ...

[lokamayadon]

P142 : what are thé origins of dormal ? What can exploit how hé created his ritual ?

P145 : I still don t understand why snodal killed the god of silver feet. What is thé link between this god and the snodal s map ? 

"In origin, the Red Goddess is an unknowable unknown.  Her story of degradation, death and rebirth is the means by which she makes herself and her mysteries known to mortals.  "

Thanks. I have to think about it. Seems différent from other gods and I Still don t understand why... 

 Like this

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, lokamayadon said:

P145 : I still don t understand why snodal killed the god of silver feet. What is thé link between this god and the snodal s map ? Like this

I think Zzabur's map had annotations about what calamities befell the various places in Fronela as it was sunk.  So in order to ensure that the sinking of Fronela could not come to pass, Snodal set about to ensure that some calamities simply could not happen.  For example, a legend might have said "Here the God of the Silver Feet marshalled the White Bear Empire against the Flood but was overwhelmed" so Snodal might have decided to kill the God of the Silver Feet in order to falsify the map.

Killing the God with Silver Feet would have been an easy decision for Snodal to make since I understand, he was a supporter of the White Bear Empire.

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, lokamayadon said:

P142 : what are thé origins of dormal ? What can exploit how hé created his ritual ?

He's the son of the God-king Belintar and Valira Delainaeo of Nochet.  Many, presumably including Belintar, aided him with plans, ships, and likely some God Learner knowledge to create his ritual.

[lokamayadon]

Thanks ! I didn t knew that

When you speaks of "god learnerS magic", do you le an that this kind of knowledge was available à round belintar ? And acceptable ?

Thanks again

[lokamayadon]

On 16/08/2017 at 11:21 AM, metcalph said:

I think Zzabur's map had annotations about what calamities befell the various places in Fronela as it was sunk.  So in order to ensure that the sinking of Fronela could not come to pass, Snodal set about to ensure that some calamities simply could not happen.  For example, a legend might have said "Here the God of the Silver Feet marshalled the White Bear Empire against the Flood but was overwhelmed" so Snodal might have decided to kill the God of the Silver Feet in order to falsify the map.

Killing the God with Silver Feet would have been an easy decision for Snodal to make since I understand, he was a supporter of the White Bear Empire.

Makes sense thanks

[davecake]

It's also quite likely that it is more fundamental. Likely Snodal knew that killing the God of the Silver Feet would create the Ban, or something like that. And knew that only such a powerful system of barriers and blocks would stop a spell as powerful as Zzaburs in its tracks. 

[Joerg]

41 minutes ago, lokamayadon said:

Thanks ! I didn t knew that

When you speaks of "god learnerS magic", do you le an that this kind of knowledge was available à round belintar ? And acceptable ?

Belintar instituted a culture of heroquesting, in order to maintain his corporeal existance. This alone could be seen as taking up God Learning again.

The Book of Belintar is a collection of the magics of this part of the world, and acts as a grimoire as much as as a guide to heroquesting opportunities. Arkat began mapping the Hero Planes, but Belintar put that map into writing and (limited) distribution.

Belintar drew much of this information from the research the God Learners did through the Lhankor Mhy cult. The God Learner schools and monasteries were burnt or at least thoroughly purged, but the Knowledge temples remained mostly unpersecuted. It helped that the cult didn't participate in the experiments (other than as observers). Belintar instituted the Final Information Library, a place where all information was gathered in one place, ready for research.

The knowledgy collected from this did not extend to the God Learner magics to alter the hero planes through their application of sorcery or other forbidden secrets. While there is no knowledte hidden from the Knowing God, not everything is researchable in his mundane libraries. His library in the God Realm/Essence Plane is a different proposal, but I suppose it takes a major quest through L-Space to get there. (L-Space being the essence-plane/hero-plane like non-euklidean extension all libraries share, according to Terry Pratchett's Diskworld. Some of the trips of The Librarian are close enough to sorcerous explorations of the Essence Planes to be useable for Glorantha.)

Belintar's origin remains a mystery. He swam ashore almost 400 years after the Closing. Speculations abound. From Prince of Sartar we know that he was blue-skinned upon his arrival, and according to the Guide he was bronze-skinned as the ruler of Kethaela. Given that he died a couple of times during his ascension, and at one time was eaten, yet kept returning in the same body, changes of hue are a minor effect.

 

 

[Tcneseis]

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

While there is no knowledte hidden from the Knowing God, not everything is researchable in his mundane libraries. His library in the God Realm/Essence Plane is a different proposal, but I suppose it takes a major quest through L-Space to get there.

What about divination, in first resort?