Donandar. Comments appreciated.

[jeffjerwin]

This is what we ended up with for the character (I'm still getting fluent with the rules, so I may have made mistakes, though the character is not really OP compared to combat-oriented PCs). We restored the character as a lone Puppeteer... Which I made a distinctive culture.

Jallaein

 

Homeland: Puppeteer Troupe

Family History [present day: 1609]

 

Age: ~21, b.1588 (game is set in 1608)

Mother born c.1567.

 

Passions:

Hate (Lunar Empire) 60%

Love (family) 70% (grandmother)

Loyalty (Puppeteer Troupe) 60%

Mother was killed in c.1597 by Lunar assassins.

 

Runes:

Air 60%

Earth 40%

Water 20%

Illusion 85% [Puppeteers +10%]

Movement 75%

 

STR 09            Damage Bonus: -, ENC 9

CON 14           Hit Points 11, Healing Rate 2

SIZ 10             SIZ Strike Rank 2

DEX 18           DEX Strike Rank 1

INT 14

POW 17          Magic Points 17, Spirit Combat damage 1d6+3

CHA 19

 

Agility +15%: Dodge 82%

Communication +15%: Act 50%, Bargain 25%, Charm 65%, Dance 115%, Disguise 55%, Fast Talk 40%, Orate 60%, Sing 80%

Knowledge +10%: Customs (Puppeteers) 30%, Lore (Donandar) 35%, Speak Puppeteer Cant 100%, Speak Heortling 90%, Speak Esrolian 50%, Speak Old Pavic 20%, Speak Stormspeech 20%, Speak Tarshite 20%, Speak Auld Wyrmish 10%

Magic +15%: Meditate 20%, Spirit Combat 35%, Spirit Travel 25%, Worship (Donandar) 40%

Manipulation +20%: Conceal 35%, Dagger 45%, Shortsword 40%, Thrown Dagger 75%, Play Instrument 105%, Sleight 40%

Perception +10%: Insight (humans) 80%, Listen 35%, Scan 35%, Search 35%, Track 15%

Stealth +10%: Hide 30%, Move Quietly 30%

 

Rune Magic: Divination, Extension, and Sanctify

Special Rune Magic: Harmonize, Illusionary Sight, Switch Places

Spirit Magic: Bladesharp 2, Coordination 1, Heal 2

 

Reputation 10%

Necklace of Glamour 2

 

Puppeteers Cultural Skills: Act +10%, Bargain +5%, Charm +10%, Conceal +10%, Customs (Puppeteers) +10%, Dance +20%, Disguise +10%, Dodge +10%, Fast Talk +10%, Orate +10%, Play Instrument +15%, Sing +15%, Sleight +15%, Speak Own Language (Puppeteers Cant) +30%, Speak Other Language (Heortling) +30%, Speak Other Language (Tradetalk) +20%, 

Cultural Weapons: Dagger +10%, Grapple +10%, Shortsword +10%, Throwing Dagger +10%

 

Puppeteer Cant (in my game) is a Theyalan dialect with many unusual loan words; it contains a considerable amount of jargon and misleading terms.

It grants equivalency as Heortling, with both Esrolian and Heortling at ½ skill and Auld Wyrmish at 1/10 skill.

[scott-martin]

19 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Kyger Litor, Chalana Arroy, and Orlanth all have direct (and positive) connections to Donandar according to the description in CC. Maran Gor uses dancing in her worship, so that was a bit more of a stretch.

Suggest keeping Issaries, who has few divine relatives this close and whose people are friendly with puppeteers. Maybe make the associated boon more cultural in most cases . . . a minor obligation to Create Market when asked to sanctify the performance ring, etc.  

I like it a lot.

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

to Kyger Litor through Molamin

Given Molamin's traditional association with Yelm, I think that's unlikely.

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Yelm (!)

Why is this a surprise?  Yelm after all defeated Orlanth in a contest of dancing!  And always has associations with music (e.g Hyraos Truetune).

[jeffjerwin]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Why is this a surprise?  Yelm after all defeated Orlanth in a contest of dancing!  And always has associations with music (e.g Hyraos Truetune).

True.

[jeffjerwin]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Given Molamin's traditional association with Yelm, I think that's unlikely.

It's in the article by GS and SP, so not my doing. Molamin was a prisoner of KL, however, whom Donandar freed. However KL then pledged friendship... If I were rewriting this I would make the connection through Hombobobom, god of drumming and dancing.

Edit: Perhaps Molamin followed Yelm into the Underworld? Then this would make a great deal more sense.

Edited July 11, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Perhaps Molamin followed Yelm into the Underworld? Then this would make a great deal more sense.

Yes, most of Yelm's court did so, and I would include Molamin.  

[jeffjerwin]

Hombobobom is female, and according to BoDR: Darkness, her drumming, which she taught to trolls, keeps the universe together. She is a daughter of Korasting.

She could be the child or student of Donandar when he/she was among the trolls. Jakaboom, her brother, is both shaman and dancer.

Note that Hombobobom discovered drumming and music while in the Underworld, and used it to keep the Uz together on the surface and to strengthen the people against chaos [USW 4]. This was also the purpose of Donandar's quest, so I'd link them... The entry in USW 4 makes clear that the Uz love music and song. The Puppeteer troupe, notably, includes at least one Dark Troll shadow-puppeteer... And shadows dance.

----

I'd note that the Dark Earth also seems to like drumming and dancing. Of course, music and song and dancing are a part of the universal idyll of the Green Age (what the Trolls call Wonderhome) and therefore we may be not looking at a "missionary" project by Donandar but rather some sort of core trait of joy that sustained all life during the time of Chaos. We may note the Gold Wheel Dancers as well as part of the ancient Council of Friends...

There is another dancing goddess, of course, and that is Sedenya. In the Glorantha Sourcebook, the mending of the world that Sedenya interpolated herself into is the Great Dance of Time. In HoHP, we are told that dance was part of the Sacred Time re-birthing of the universe.

In the same text we are told that Auld Wyrmish includes danced information as well as spoken. Thus the Waltzing and Hunting Bands... Dance plays a major role in the Sartar Magical Union.

Hence, I think a low-combat/high-mysticism/RP game of Glorantha could easily be told entirely around performative magic. We could call it "Getting the Band back together" - on a "mission from Donandar..."

[metcalph]

37 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

She could be the child or student of Donandar when he/she was among the trolls. Jakaboom, her brother, is both shaman and dancer.

I really don't like this synthetic mythology.  It isn't how a Troll would see things and the idea that Donandar would have a superior insight into Uz mythology doesn't sound right to me.   This is a cult of entertainers, not a cult of super wisdom.

 

[jeffjerwin]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I really don't like this synthetic mythology.  It isn't how a Troll would see things and the idea that Donandar would have a superior insight into Uz mythology doesn't sound right to me.   This is a cult of entertainers, not a cult of super wisdom.

 

Well, we may have to disagree here. I can see what you are saying, and in this case, obviously, MGDV. It does seem God-learner-ish and from a real-world perspective, diminishes a little the rooted-ness of performance as a human or intelligence quality that emerges spontaneously in every society (and among Uz in Glorantha). I do also have some misgivings.

However, I'm not getting this reading from nowhere. The Troop or Troupe is presented as an esoteric wisdom school and trickster crew (led from early on by Donandar) in published (canon) sources which do bring them into relationship with the Elder Races, the Celestial Court, and the Green Age. It's also clear that they have positive relationships with the Uz. Now, the Uz perspective may well be that the Troop's god is simply Hombobobom under a different name, and for all we know they are correct, and Hombobobom and Molamin somehow found some sort of common ground we call "Donandar" among humans. Or both could be wrong, and Uz simply like music and parties so they favor the Troop, rationalizing it in a different way than the Troop does. However a sufficiently powerful myth in Glorantha is effectively true, particularly if it's tied to an Illusion cult. I think every tall tale told about the Troop and Donandar is true/pleasing/believable within the confines of the Troop's ritual space. Outside their sanctified plays, maybe it's all a pack of lies.

In a metafictional way, however, all play in Glorantha is illusory and involves roles being assumed by players. All Glorantha is just stories and poems and songs. Donandar is a transcendent deity, even if he or she is a minor god, because at heart we know this.

[Yelm's Light]

6 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

There is another dancing goddess, of course, and that is Sedenya. In the Glorantha Sourcebook, the mending of the world that Sedenya interpolated herself into is the Great Dance of Time. In HoHP, we are told that dance was part of the Sacred Time re-birthing of the universe.

And another Lunar one, Hon-Eel.

[David Scott]

In working with Jeff on cults for a long time, there are a couple of things that have become clear to me. The main one is the overcomplexity of cult writing. You can see this in the history of RQ cults, cults of terror holds some of the worse examples (thanayter, vivamort) and Caladra and Aurleion. Using donander as an example:

I'd certainly start with the character gen version of his cult using step 6 in RQG. No mythology need, keeps it simple.

What small list of skills and spells does he give

What are his runes

so he's an entertainer god with a tiny following, other gods exist that fulfil some of his roles - I'm sure there are plenty who teach dance.

If you want a spy angle to it, have a cult hero fills that niche, same goes for troll entertainers. Hero cults step on no toes and are very local.

Finally I'd go with

What does he do

Why does he do it

[Joerg]

IMO Donandar as an occupational cult should be short, practical, have two runes (and share only one with Issaries).

But there is also the option of a mystery cult, the human dream, less solid than the draconic dream, but full of ideas, what-ifs and alternative views. Not just the lies and deception that are embodied by Eurmal. I think that this is a cosmic function hardly fulfilled by the Trickster. One with even fewer followers than the trickster, although there will be devotees among the way more mundane performers of the Puppeteers.

Your average performer has nothing to do with belieavable illusions. The Orlanthi skald should be obsessed with Truth rather than Illusion. But the Puppeteers can take their audience into participation in an altered or even other world. Nightmares may take form, and dissipate again. And at times, performers and observers may be taken to the Other Side, when Illusion fuses with mythical reality.

These are the deep secrets of Donandar. Few initiates or priests, hordes of lay members willing to experience their almost real alternatives. And at times, Imagination may strike at real threats, saving or taking lives. You probably won't recognize them as such, wearing the guise of entertainers or stage hands, or completely different appearances. That's how it should be. Our perception of this aspect of Donandar is shrouded by illusion. There is way more power there than it should. Maybe the cult is that big. Maybe there are illusionary cultists upholding this. Maybe it has its very own Other Side where all these Illusions go when they stop manifesting in this world.

[PhilHibbs]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I think that this is a cosmic function hardly fulfilled by the Trickster.

Every cosmic function can be fulfilled by the Trickster.

[jeffjerwin]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Every cosmic function can be fulfilled by the Trickster.

Including the function of beginning (birthing) and ending (devouring) the universe.

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Every cosmic function can be fulfilled by the Trickster.

That was a letter too much:

Every comic function can be fulfilled by the Trickster.

And every cosmic dysfunction.

There are a few things that the Trickster is good at. Eurmal Friend of Man, the Firethief. Orlantio, the upstart poking at the weaknesses of the stagnant rules of the cosmos until the Emperor fell apart. And sometimes the Trickster's evil can be necessary, like the transformation of Earthmaker. But most of the time, the Trickster is as functional and welcome as the Boggles.

Donandar can and will be a distraction, too, but only rarely in a bad way.

[jeffjerwin]

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Donandar can and will be a distraction, too, but only rarely in a bad way.

Donandar, like Orlanth out of 'Orlantio', seems to be a Trickster purged of his Disorder (Orlanth becoming a defender of the chaos rather than simply a thief and rogue). He even has the Harmony Rune, just like Orlanth has the Mastery (kingship) rune (which is clearly derived from Harmony). Thus Donandar's closeness to Eurmal suggests to me a "healed" or "reformed" Trickster archetype, much like the King of the Gods. Thus his mistakes are unintentional, much like Orlanth's later ones.

Of course the 'original' Puppeteer Troupe on the Spike probably synthesized Harmony and Disorder and Truth and Illusion to tell good stories or delight the gods - for that is what a surprise is: the unexpected emerging from the ordinary and laughter is the release of the tension of the whole incongruity.

The incongruity of trolls loving the Troupe, alongside all the other weirdos is part of this.

On a practical level, a Donandar troupe makes an excellent adventuring party, so all the 'synthetic' stories they make up to justify a party of trolls, ducks, and whatnot end up supporting the play.

[Yelm's Light]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

In working with Jeff on cults for a long time, there are a couple of things that have become clear to me. The main one is the overcomplexity of cult writing. You can see this in the history of RQ cults, cults of terror holds some of the worse examples (thanayter, vivamort) and Caladra and Aurleion. Using donander as an example:

I'd certainly start with the character gen version of his cult using step 6 in RQG. No mythology need, keeps it simple.

What small list of skills and spells does he give

What are his runes

so he's an entertainer god with a tiny following, other gods exist that fulfil some of his roles - I'm sure there are plenty who teach dance.

If you want a spy angle to it, have a cult hero fills that niche, same goes for troll entertainers. Hero cults step on no toes and are very local.

Finally I'd go with

What does he do

Why does he do it

I don't think 6 or 8 pages is excessive for a major cult, especially if you're going to play an involved member in a campaign.  (And those are only for the major cults; the smaller ones usually get about a paragraph's mention under Associated Cults.)  Even the lowliest lay member knows the cult's mythology if they've been around for any period of time, especially in a community as insular as the Puppeteers'.

[scott-martin]

The unasked question here is where the language equivalencies on Puppeteer Cant bend. Is it completely alien to local exoteric languages, aligned closer to some than to others, universally familiar like a form of Trade, a virus from outer space . . . ?

EDIT oh of course the Theyalan was hidden in plain site in the original post. There you have it!

Edited July 11, 2018 by scott-martin

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The unasked question here is what the language equivalencies are on Puppeteer Cant. Is it completely alien to local exoteric languages, aligned closer to some than to others, universally familiar like a form of Trade, a virus from outer space . . . ?

Possibly some weird anti-analogue to Swordspeech, a language with a multiply redundant vocabulary like the Mayan script is multiply redundant for its syllable values, with the option to use gestures, grimaces or dance figures in mid-sentence. The unspoken parts probably can condense to a very concise dialect used to coordinate complex illusions etc. during shows.

[jeffjerwin]

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Possibly some weird anti-analogue to Swordspeech, a language with a multiply redundant vocabulary like the Mayan script is multiply redundant for its syllable values, with the option to use gestures, grimaces or dance figures in mid-sentence. The unspoken parts probably can condense to a very concise dialect used to coordinate complex illusions etc. during shows.

Or a version of the Ur-tongue, the Language before Language, when Men and Beasts were not differentiated? It certainly would, as you suggest, include a great deal of body language. There would be, I think, a way to 'double' speech so it is both flattering and satirical.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

The unasked question here is what the language equivalencies are on Puppeteer Cant. Is it completely alien to local exoteric languages, aligned closer to some than to others, universally familiar like a form of Trade, a virus from outer space . . . ?

It's a secret jargon, I'd think. That means that the less of its occult meanings that are shared with other languages, the better. Kinda like carney lingo. The exoteric language might seem quite mundane and may be built on Theyalan and Trade Talk.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Or a version of the Ur-tongue, the Language before Language, when Men and Beasts were not differentiated?

Not sure such a language existed. After all, not even the different Hsunchen languages are related, at least not between different families of beasts. I doubt that Telmori and Basmoli languages have much in common, despite their common ancestor Fralar. Damali and Pralori, and possibly other antler-bearers, might have some basic shared language, as may the various Rathori of Rathorela, but neither would have much if anything in common with the language of the other group. That's why the God of the Silver Feet was so important for the White Bear Empire.

 

7 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

It's a secret jargon, I'd think. That means that the less of its occult meanings that are shared with other languages, the better. Kinda like carney lingo. The exoteric language might seem quite mundane and may be built on Theyalan and Trade Talk.

I tend to agree. Puppeteer shows may very well be initiated by the Theyalan/Trade Talk equivalent of "Willkommen! Bienvenu! Welcome!" of Cabaret fame. Address the locals, the intelligentsia and the travelers in as many words.

[David Scott]

14 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

It's a secret jargon, I'd think.

I imagine it's like Polari. Used by theatricals, etc, 

I used to listen to it on a radio series called round the horne. It's a cryptodialect like cockney rhyming slang.

If you're offended by Bilingsgate, don't read on

https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2015/01/14/polari/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8yEH8TZUsk

I'd suggest it's a crypto dialect of Tradetalk.

 

 

 

[scott-martin]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'd suggest it's a crypto dialect of Tradetalk.

I ran out of reacts for the day before we got to Joerg's "Cabaret" reference but just wanted to say this stuff is really cooking up fine. 

And wherever Donandar comes from in historical times (dull professional guild, syncretic placeholder, generic bard cult, whatever), the Hero Wars can flip the script. Tylenea never died, she just went backstage awhile.