Donandar. Comments appreciated.

[Shiningbrow]

12 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Donandar PC exists in a world where they may have to heal themselves or others in the party.  Or Dismiss a baleful magical effect.  Saying that they are "just for Music, Dance and Theatre" cuts them off from blending into, and contributing to, a PC party facing the dangerous world.

But... Glorantha isn't a world in which the only things that matters are the PCs all on their little own-some.

Nor is RQ intended to be simply yet another dungeon crawl RPG.

Once again, it comes back to RP - what sort of character do the players want to play? Not everyone wants to be combat oriented, and certainly not all players want that style of play. And, while some players do want to be involved in that style of game, the cult shouldn't be required to ensure their survivability, because that's not what its priority is.

I see it as not too dissimilar to playing a number of other cults - CA means being a complete passivist... there aren't a lot of complaints about that. Arroin means not having Rune Magic at all to heal with. Eurmal requires being an outcast or dregs of society being generally loathed and barely tolerated (and often not). Being a shaman means having significantly reduced access to Rune spells.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

CA means being a complete passivist

Every sane human party would welcome a CA or similar PC. Trolls would love a XU.  Incredibly useful in many situations.  Most all groups will gain much benefit from a friendly party shaman.  BTW, shamen are freaking awesome and fun to play in a wide variety of situations.

@Jeff Perhaps I have a basic misunderstanding.  Is the designer's intent that most all PCs in the smaller, highly focused cults will also join a more mainstream cult?  If so, the supposed "weaknesses" of the smaller cult are much less important and not worth all of my fussing. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Shiningbrow]

22 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Every sane human party would welcome a CA or similar PC. Trolls would love a XU.  Incredibly useful in many situations.  Most all groups will gain much benefit from a friendly party shaman.  BTW, shamen are freaking awesome and fun to play in a wide variety of situations.

Again, <le sigh> you're focussing on only ONE type of game play - the type that involves a lot of combat.

Not everyone wants that. And so, not all cults should cater to that.

Let's face it - entertainers really shouldn't be going out and putting themselves in danger anyway.... And if they've decided that they want to (perhaps for the better stories), then they should be joining a more adventurous cult as well.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Again, <le sigh> you're focussing on only ONE type of game play - the type that involves a lot of combat

Not my intent.  CA are good at negotiations, fighting disease afflicting a village, etc.  Very useful in many situations.  Frankly, I find them more interesting, and sometimes more useful, out of combat.  That's where they get "the limelight".  Same for shamen.

If entertainers shouldn't be going into danger, why would you want to play one?  I guess they do join other cults as you suggest.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Donandar PC exists in a world where they may have to heal themselves or others in the party.  Or Dismiss a baleful magical effect.  Saying that they are "just for Music, Dance and Theatre" cuts them off from blending into, and contributing to, a PC party facing the dangerous world.

Donandar is a minor, niche cult.  If 4 characters in the party have access to the "basic survival" spells but the 5th is a Donandari who doesn't... I think that's OK.  That party also has a lot of OTHER options... options not available to the poor benighted "5/5 party-members belong to 'Adventuring' Cults" group, that has no Donandar amongst them!

Such a group may somtimes deploy razzle-dazzle, flash without substance, misdirection, &c.  The may benefit from a natural "face" in the party.  When short of ready coin, they can likely get a basic sleeping arrangement for the cost of a few songs.  Etc etc etc.

[French Desperate WindChild]

54 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If entertainers shouldn't be going into danger, why would you want to play one?  I guess they do join other cults as you suggest.

i agree donandar cultist are not very good to fight... as standard fighters. However, they may use their magic in some weird way to help fight ? I'm here... I'm not here... where i am ? houhou.. distraction could help your party to ambush them

See behind you the 20 trolls who are charging you... etc.. could help when the situation is not good, etc...

 

In all cases. No one force a player to be a donandar cultist.

Of course when the table is fight oriented, that will be a little bit boring to the one who has nothing to deal with wounds (to give or to heal) except if the player uses the capacity in smart way

Note that spirit magic can help a lot, learn or obtain a mlatrix with heal 6 and you are a healer

 

choose the cult for what you want to play, once you have defined with the players and the gm what will be the "flavor" of the campaign.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Shiningbrow]

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i agree donandar cultist are not very good to fight... as standard fighters. However, they may use their magic in some weird way to help fight ? I'm here... I'm not here... where i am ? houhou.. distraction could help your party to ambush them

See behind you the 20 trolls who are charging you... etc.. could help when the situation is not good, etc...

 

In all cases. No one force a player to be a donandar cultist.

Of course when the table is fight oriented, that will be a little bit boring to the one who has nothing to deal with wounds (to give or to heal) except if the player uses the capacity in smart way

Note that spirit magic can help a lot, learn or obtain a mlatrix with heal 6 and you are a healer

 

choose the cult for what you want to play, once you have defined with the players and the gm what will be the "flavor" of the campaign.

 

 

Well, actually, there's no reason why a Donadar cultist can't be more directly aggressive. Give them a crossbow, for instance. And while they won't be frontline warriors for a while, they'll still not be completely shabby at melee if they put some points into a weapon - 15% from Entertainer, and 25% from Personal, plus cultural and stats - could be 60% or higher.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Donandar PC exists in a world where they may have to heal themselves or others in the party.  Or Dismiss a baleful magical effect.  Saying that they are "just for Music, Dance and Theatre" cuts them off from blending into, and contributing to, a PC party facing the dangerous world.

Heal, the spirit magic spell, can be learned for a price from most cults by a lay member,  or from a shaman.  Although Donandar doesn't teach spirit magic, lay membership is easy in my Glorantha, which is multitheistic after all - is it so hard in your Glorantha?  The only thing the Dondandar cultist may miss IMG is an initiate discount.

The same applies to Dispel Magic.

 

Heal Wound, the rune spell, is a common rune spell which almost any cult can give, so why assume Donandar doesn't give it?

[TrvShane]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Donandar PC exists in a world where they may have to heal themselves or others in the party.  Or Dismiss a baleful magical effect.  Saying that they are "just for Music, Dance and Theatre" cuts them off from blending into, and contributing to, a PC party facing the dangerous world.

Surely 99% of Donadar initiates are not adventurers? A few points of spirit magic will heal the ouches they will get routinely, and any more than that they can head off for proper healing. Those rare Donadarians (?) who go adventuring may notice the lack of healing RM, but then again that’s not Donadar’s bag, right? Why would Donandar care about adventuring?

I really like that Glorantha is built unevenly and not focussed on adventuring PC balance - some cults are just plain better for adventurers - just like some cults are just plain better for magical dances.

Edited April 23, 2022 by TrvShane
Spellingz iz hardz

[Jose]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not my intent.  CA are good at negotiations, fighting disease afflicting a village, etc.  Very useful in many situations.  Frankly, I find them more interesting, and sometimes more useful, out of combat.  That's where they get "the limelight".  Same for shamen.

If entertainers shouldn't be going into danger, why would you want to play one?  I guess they do join other cults as you suggest.

Donandar also have I think Charisma, do you know how useful is in social encounters or with the new heroquest rules?. Illusion spells magics in heroquest are tremendously useful. Remember, Illusions are real stuff. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

57 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, actually, there's no reason why a Donadar cultist can't be more directly aggressive. Give them a crossbow, for instance. And while they won't be frontline warriors for a while, they'll still not be completely shabby at melee if they put some points into a weapon - 15% from Entertainer, and 25% from Personal, plus cultural and stats - could be 60% or higher.

yes but we were discussing about magic 🙂

 

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The Donandar PC exists in a world where they may have to heal themselves or others in the party.  Or Dismiss a baleful magical effect.  Saying that they are "just for Music, Dance and Theatre" cuts them off from blending into, and contributing to, a PC party facing the dangerous world.

I don't necessarily agree.

Donandar Adventurers are about performing, infiltrating, using Illusions.

If they want to heal they should learn Healing magic.

Having said that, I'd give them basic Common Runemagic, such as Heal Wound and Dismiss Magic. All cults should get Spirit Block, as Flesh Man gave that to all deities.

[David Scott]

A couple of Donandar cultists from the world of literature and TV spring to mind, that illustrate the nature of the cult

• Jaskier from the Witcher is your archetypal bard with all the tropes associate with it (wine, women and song. In RQG, he's just the person you want in group to get you the reputation you are after (per page 238).
• Hagman from the Sharpe series, a former poacher turned sniper. He knowns all the rousing songs and tunes for the right moment.

I'm sure I've missed a few, but the point is you can be an actor to AmDram, professional or part time, singer, dancer or whatever and be part of an adventuring group.

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Every sane human party would welcome a CA or similar PC. Trolls would love a XU.  Incredibly useful in many situations.  Most all groups will gain much benefit from a friendly party shaman.  BTW, shamen are freaking awesome and fun to play in a wide variety of situations.

@Jeff Perhaps I have a basic misunderstanding.  Is the designer's intent that most all PCs in the smaller, highly focused cults will also join a more mainstream cult?  If so, the supposed "weaknesses" of the smaller cult are much less important and not worth all of my fussing. 

No, why would someone who is devoted to Music, Dance, and Theatre necessarily devote themselves to Storm and War, or Earth and Fertility, or whatever? They sing songs, dance, tell stories, put on presentations, or whatever. If for some reason they decide to get into a battle, well their god isn't likely much help (but wait! Donandar has a subcult that provides cheap Bladesharp spells!). But why the heck are they doing that?

There are plenty of cults that offer very little for the traditional fighty-stabby adventurers who wander around looking for treasure in old ruins. But those cults offer tremendous opportunity for roleplaying, and for doing other sorts of activities.

[Brian Duguid]

Looking forward to the thread asking why Barntar has no spells relevant to traditional adventurers. Or Flamal. Or the Grain Goddesses. Or Voria. Or ... (checks list) ...

(PS: that link was not the final list, there was at least one update shared earlier this year, so it's not a nice round number of 100 cults any more).

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Looking forward to the thread asking why Barntar has no spells relevant to traditional adventurers. Or Flamal. Or the Grain Goddesses. Or Voria. Or ... (checks list) ...

(PS: that link was not the final list, there was at least one update shared earlier this year, so it's not a nice round number of 100 cults any more).

There are plenty of cults that work fine for traditional fighty-stabby adventurers:

Orlanth - THE cult of Adventurers. And of Storms, Kings, and Heroquesting.

Humakt - THE cult of people who fight with swords.

Storm Bull - THE cult of people who fight Chaos monsters.

Babeester Gor - THE cult of people who like to hit things with Axes.

Yelmalio -  for people who fight against the Darkness.

Yelm - THE cult for people who like to shoot fiery arrows or stab with flaming spears.

But if you play a follower of the Entertainment God, Scribe God, or the Pathfinder God, or the Healing Goddess, or the Trickster God, or the Great Goddess of Earth, Fertility, and Women - well you might not find your Rune magic particularly helpful in a fighty-stabby context. And that is PERFECTLY fine. If the players want to explore those cults, I'd suggest making the adventure ideas be more about concepts other than fighty-stabby. 

[PhilHibbs]

35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But  if you play a follower of the Entertainment God, Scribe God, or the Pathfinder God, or the Healing Goddess, or the Trickster God, or the Great Goddess of Earth, Fertility, and Women - well you might not find your Rune magic particularly helpful in a fighty-stabby context. And that is PERFECTLY fine.

One of those doesn't get the common rune spells. That, I think, was the original concern. If you worship Donandar then you need to join another cult to get, say, Multispell or Spirit Block or Heal Wound. And then your rune pool is split, and you'd be better off just sticking with one cult.

Except I might be wrong, please correct me if Donandar does get some common RM. I'm just basing this response off others' comments.

Edited April 23, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If the players want to explore those cults, I'd suggest making the adventure ideas be more about concepts other than fighty-stabby. 

Which is fine if all the players went down that path. The middle road is rocky! Fortunately for me my party all have fairly flexible roles.

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

One of those doesn't get the common rune spells. That, I think, was the original concern. If you worship Donandar then you need to join another cult to get, say, Multispell or Spirit Block or Heal Wound. And then your rune pool is split, and you'd be better off just sticking with one cult.

Donandar is a very specialised cult. He's not a healer, doesn't fight spirits, and never incorporated Multispell. He entertains.

And that's fine as far as I am concerned.

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which is fine if all the players went down that path. The middle road is rocky! Fortunately for me my party all have fairly flexible roles.

The same thing exists with Call of Cthulhu, Ringworld, or any other BRP game. As far as I am concerned, that is a huge strength of those systems. You can play incredibly diverse characters.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, Jose said:

Donandar also have I think Charisma, do you know how useful is in social encounters or with the new heroquest rules?

Yes, I agree, Charisma is a wonderful spell, and my Vinga worshipper uses it a lot.  Especially when she sings.

Donandar, the God of Entertainers, does not have it.  At least not in the information presented here by Darius and Jeff.  Which seems an oversight, as it would be a big boost to many of their key skills.  (They do have Glamour spirit magic)  As currently constructed, Orlanth seems a better cult for singers than Donandar.

[Jeff]

25 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yes, I agree, Charisma is a wonderful spell, and my Vinga worshipper uses it a lot.  Especially when she sings.

Donandar, the God of Entertainers, does not have it.  At least not in the information presented here by Darius and Jeff.  Which seems an oversight, as it would be a big boost to many of their key skills.  (They do have Glamour spirit magic)  As currently constructed, Orlanth seems a better cult for singers than Donandar.

Correct. And Orlanth only gets it through Eurmal. 

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As currently constructed, Orlanth seems a better cult for singers than Donandar.

Except you don't get to go and celebrate in the cool theatre / music hall / arena, sing wild songs, do exotic performances and speak rousing poetry, you have to go and stand on top of a hill in the rain.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Except you don't get to go and celebrate in the cool theatre / music hall / arena, sing wild songs, do exotic performances and speak rousing poetry, you have to go and stand on top of a hill in the rain.

Our Eurmali put on an Esrolian style opera (if they even exist?) of "The Magic Flute" when we were visiting Argrath in Pavis.  Very strange to us.  The player really loved it.  He's really into music - actually, several of our players enjoy it, and Sing, Dance, and/or Play Instrument are common skills for most of our PCs.

One reason I'm being an admitted butthead here is that my Vinga PC, a great singer by background and fluke of the skill increase rolls, just bought a Stradivarius (well, a very pricey Masterwork Lute) and I'd like to try roleplaying her musical side much more, and joining Donandar.  If Orlanth is better for singers, as Jeff agrees, that's a bit disappointing.  But O.K., will figure out something.

[Brian Duguid]

By far and away the easiest thing to do here is just to change the cult for your own game. If you think it is unbalanced in the official version, just change it. What would you do if details of the cult had never been published?

Whatever that is, do that.