orlanthi cults in Umathela

[Manu]

In Umathela, 50% are Malkionists (Sedalpists for most), 50% are Orlanthists

Except Orlanth and Ernalda, what are the other 'common' cults?

Humakt seems appropriate.

As I would see that most of the big business is in the hands of the city merchand princes (Malkionists most probably), I would say that Issaries is quite small and only in the villages.

Chalana Arroy should be present

Lankhor Mhy? Again, big university are in cities, hence mostly in the hand of the Malkion Wizards

Maran Gor? Babeester Gor? To protect the Earth temples

Eurmal? In the villages (or every where as they are always every where... )

Storm bull? Not so much Chaos in this part of the world...

Yelmalio for those closer to the elves.

Odayla for the hunter

Some worshiping Aldrya?

[GianniVacca]

I can't see why there should be Yelmalio worship in Umathela. The Orlanthi here left Genertela before the spread of Yelmalian worship.

 

According to the Guide (p621) Orlanthi worship in Umathela is no different to Genertela. Then by closely reading the gazetteer you can spot a few minor differences (e.g., worship of Tyloque, p637).

 

I have run a very short Umathelan campaign using David Dunham's notes but they are clearly no longer canon:

http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/umathela/UmathelanReligion.pdf

http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/umathela/Info-Umathelans.pdf

[Eff]

I suspect that in places where Orlanthi are ruled by other cultures the Issaries cult becomes involved in the collection of tax and tribute, since they know the arts of valuation and appraisal and can be trusted to be fair, to the disgust of everyone else involved. 

In Umathela they might well be more important because of the constant Sedalpist use of Orlanthi mercenaries, which would demand careful negotiation over pay, terms of service and so on, which would also bring in the "jurist" face of the Lhankor Mhy cult in recording precedent in forms Malkioni respect. 

I can't remember if Umathela grows Genertelan crops or not, but if it doesn't then the Ernalda cult will be extremely different in form, having to worship the goddesses of local grains rather than the more familiar Esra and Pelora and so on. You would also probably see a different emphasis for livestock magic given how unsuitable most of Pamaltela is for beasts of burden. If Umathelans practice swidden or horticulture more often than plowing, Barntar would probably be secondary to Orlanthcarl/Orlanth the Farmer as the farming god. 

The Babeester Gor cult probably would have issues operating in Sedalpist cities, so it might take a less bloodthirsty form or be almost as underground as the Ana Gor cult is in Dragon Pass. Or simply relatively confined to Earth temples maintained entirely in rural areas. 

[Lord High Munchkin]

OK, I know that some hated MRQII but they did have some useful info that built on David's work (which I used)....

The similarities and correspondences used were:

Umathing God    Orlanthi Counterpart 

Tyloque the Storm King    Orlanth

Ropotes the Wise    Lhankor Mhy 

Phausia the Warrior Maiden    Vinga 

Rabilis the Sister Whore    Babeester Gor 

Systella the Sister Witch    Maran Gor

Thyla the Green Life Sister    Aldrya

Rondella the Pauper Queen    No Counterpart

Neiropha the Healer    Chalana Arroy

Mayedra the Earth Mother    Asrelia

Vrala the Grain Sister    Grain Goddesses

Ernamola the Earth Sister    Ernalda

Aloral the Herder    No Counterpart

Chortikan the Hunter    Odayla

Eler the Ram of the Rains    Heler

Umath the Spirit Father    Umath, Primal Air

 

Rondella and Aloral have no Orlanthi equivalents but do provide their worshippers with Higher (Rune) Magic.

Aloral: Beast Form (Pig/Boar), Laughter.

Rondella: Absorption, Cure Poison, Dismiss Magic, Spirit Block.

Umath is never worshipped directly

Edited August 7, 2018 by Lord High Munchkin

[metcalph]

My opinion from the few details in the Guide:

Orlanth exists in two forms: Worlath (which is closer to the classical cult) and Baraku (which is a Fonritan version worshipped by Bandits).

Humakt is known as Humct (based on Humct Garlo and the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha).  

The Sun is known as Ehilm but might be closer to Elmal (Just as RQG calls the Grazer Kargzent "Yelm").

Eurmal would be known as Jogrampur whose worshippers believe they are following an ancient mystical cult from the Eastern Isles.  In truth, they have Illusion spells and no mysticism.  

 

[Rob Helm]

About the notes from David Dunham's game (all non-canonical):

• Halamalao played a role similar to Elmal or Yelmalio. His was one of several cults influenced by the Aldryami, who were ruling or had ruled in the Orlanthi areas of Umathela.
• Morlotes the boar was an important god with no equivalent in Genertela. I think the Umathelans in our game relied heavily on pigs and had ancestry tracing back to pig people (hsunchen?) in Slontos.

 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Rob Helm said:

• Morlotes the boar was an important god with no equivalent in Genertela. I think the Umathelans in our game relied heavily on pigs and had ancestry tracing back to pig people (hsunchen?) in Slontos.

 

Morlotes is possibly related to the Genertelan Mralot.

[Manu]

Worlath and Baraku could be the same 'god' ? Worlath more as the standard Orlanth cult, Baraku more 'Orlanth Adventurous' mixt with Eurmal?

 

I kind of like the idea...

[Joerg]

I think we can safely assume that whoever was resettled from Slontos to Jrustela (by the name of Olodo) and finally Umathela had been in contact with the Theyalan Lightbringers. Whether they would have had other names for Orlanth and Ernalda I am not sure.

Ehilm was the Ralian sun god known to the Malkioni (and probably the Brithini), and identified with the Fire Rune erasanchula (original runic being) that was among those who fell to the temptation of receiving worship, hence the False Gods according to Zzabur's propaganda. That name may well have bled over to Slontos from Galin and Helby. Worlath doesn't show up in Ralios, but that name may have been in use by the Dawn Age Slontans (who had contact with the Serpent Kings if I read that stuff about the wife from the east correctly in the Seshnelan King List).

Baraku is a name from the Doraddi myth cycle. The Umathelan aldryami might know about Baraku. I doubt the immigrants brought there by the Waertagi did, although their descendants may have learnt it from the elves.

In a way, Baraku is similar to Bisos or Storm Bull, and even more so to the god of the Andam Horde. We have no data what kind of herd beasts he brought, only that they didn't agree to the fodder available on the Veldt. A herder deity, and by extension also a raider deity.

Elf Yelmalio is a must have. Sharing that cult with humans may have come when God Learners made the connection with lands formerly ruled by Palangio and transported that idea over, some time after Tanian's Victory. The cult may have garnered new momentum with the new platforms purging the God Learners at the end of the Imperial Age.

[Manu]

8 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

According to the Guide (p621) Orlanthi worship in Umathela is no different to Genertela. Then by closely reading the gazetteer you can spot a few minor differences (e.g., worship of Tyloque, p637).

Tyloque is only mentionned once, as the son of Orlanth. Pretty weak reference to make it a cult in Umathela. But why not.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Manu said:

Worlath and Baraku could be the same 'god' ? Worlath more as the standard Orlanth cult, Baraku more 'Orlanth Adventurous' mixt with Eurmal?

I'm not seeing the Eurmal component myself.  Baraku is closer to Vadrus or Storm Bull in his capacity for violence.  While people may think they are the same god, their worshippers would resist any attempt at identification for the same reason that Elmal or Yelmalio would - they simply don't like each other.

I don't see Baraku as as a life stage for the Umathelan Orlanthi in worshipping Orlanth.  He's a parallel worship of Orlanth but with his own myths, strengths, associated cults and enemies.  Most of the Umathelans would acknowledge Worlath but as you get closer to Fonritan lands, you will find gangs of Baraku worshippers here and there.  

[metcalph]

I'm no great fan of attempts to infer the practices of the Orlanthi from their supposed Manirian heritage or what they might have heard then.  The theory for widespread transportation of the Orlanthi from Maniria is quite weak and there's very little signs of Orlanth worship in Jrustela, an important waypoint in their journey.  Nor can I see a good reason why the Waertagi would have been transporting Orlanthi instead of the Slontans with whom they would have have greater kinship.

The religious practice of the Orlanthi would be better understood I feel as being part of the God Learners who were their rulers for four centuries.  

 

[Joerg]

 

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I'm no great fan of attempts to infer the practices of the Orlanthi from their supposed Manirian heritage or what they might have heard then.  The theory for widespread transportation of the Orlanthi from Maniria is quite weak and there's very little signs of Orlanth worship in Jrustela, an important waypoint in their journey.  Nor can I see a good reason why the Waertagi would have been transporting Orlanthi instead of the Slontans with whom they would have have greater kinship.

Last time I checked Slontos was located in Maniria. The Dawn Age Slontans were reluctant to admit Lightbringer missionaries from Kethaela, but relented around 120.

What kinship would the Waertagi have with the Slontans? Helering descent indicates hostility rather than friendship.

44 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The religious practice of the Orlanthi would be better understood I feel as being part of the God Learners who were their rulers for four centuries.  

The Aldryami have been their rulers for over a millennium, that should be giving the elves a better handle on their religious practices, in that context.

True, the God Learners did meddle - mostly in order to gain heroquest powers by riding the Umathelan Orlanthi myths, and to test out their exchangability theories on chosen test populations.

The God Learners pushed the aldryami back into the deepest forests

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What kinship would the Waertagi have with the Slontans? Helering descent indicates hostility rather than friendship.

I would say that the Slontans are Malkioni, not Helerings but more importantly you are just wasting time with this sort of remark.  The culture of the Orlanthi is not to be found in what they might have heard before their supposed ancestors left Maniria but in the following influences:

1)  The extinct Storm worshipping culture of mythical Umathela (Baraku, Desero etc).  Forget Maniria - this is what is important.

2)  The God Learners

3)  the Elves.

Secondary influences would be:

1)  The Vadeli

2)  The Fonritans

3)  the Cult of Silence.

Focus on these influences and not waffle at length about whether Ehilm is a Ralian sun god (Who cares?) or whether the Elves might have heard of Baraku (I would have thought the mentions in the Guide that he was known to the Armali to be quite sufficient).  

If I had to hazard a guess as to the origin of the Orlanthi, I would observe that they could have just as easily been the farmers and warriors of the Umathelan Coalition who were directed to sacrifice to the Gods at the direction of their wizards.  The False Gods caused them to reject their Malkioni customs and take up Orlanthi one.  That explains the remarkable lack of ethnic differences (as opposed to cultural differences) between the Orlanthi and the Malki

 

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Aldryami have been their rulers for over a millennium, that should be giving the elves a better handle on their religious practices, in that context.

Six centuries is not "over a millennium" and more importantly I've never denied Aldryami influence.

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

True, the God Learners did meddle - mostly in order to gain heroquest powers by riding the Umathelan Orlanthi myths, and to test out their exchangability theories on chosen test populations.

This is just dire.  If I am a God Learner, I do not think in terms of "gaining heroquest powers", nor would I restrict myself to testing exchangability theories (whatever that is supposed to be).  The God Learners basically RULED Umathela for four centuries - no way would they restrict themselves to "meddling".  The few described instances of God Learner meddling that occur in the Guide are places where they did not rule.  

 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The God Learners pushed the aldryami back into the deepest forests

I would point out how wrong this was but I fail to see its actual relevance to the subject matter.

[Joerg]

There is no indication whatsoever that the Slontans or the Manirians transported to Jrustela and Umathela were Malkioni, let alone kin to the Waertagi. The terms Slontos and Maniria are used in a number of ways, sometimes defining a specific portion of that region, sometimes the entire region west of Kethaela. The Guide makes either of them inhabited by Entruli at the Dawn, who then became Orlanthi under the influence of the Lightbringers, although some of the coastal kingdoms may have adopted Malkionism by the 4th century. There is no information about the native religion during the reign of the Bright Empire, but its expansion may have been behind the "exiled by enemies" immigration wave of Olodo to Jrustela (Middle Sea Empire pp. 8 and 11, IIRC).

The notion that the wizards would have ordered the Dronar and Horal caste folk from Seshnela (second migration, sent there by Nralar the Old, according to Guide p.621) to join the Orlanthi religion is surprising, to say the least. The notion that the third wave (folk deeply accepting the Abiding Book) did is even weaker. The first wave of around 475 are from Maniria, which (even by Imperial Age standards, Guide p.351) was the place where you would expect Orlanthi, ruled by Pralori.

I'll address other issues separately.
 

[Manu]

I like you both... So passionate in your discussions!!! But I'm afraid that I can't always follow you guys....

But thanks for all the info

If I only take the Guide (I don't have the other sources you have) :

In Nikosdros, there are temples to Orlanth (not Worlath), Lankor Mhy and Issaries (And Dormal... Meaning that many sailors are worshipping Dormal and not the Invisible God)

Tortrica has a ruling dynasty of Orlanthist (and Issaries)

Janamal (Kallima) : Temples of Babeester Gor, Ernalda and Issaries

Ordruvela : largest temple of Ernalda

 

The Guide also said : The revolt of nature against the God Learners brought ruin. The start of their downfall is marked by the False Gods Revolt of 901, when priests of Worlath, Ehilm, and even Jogrampur (an imaginary deity invented in a God Learner experiment) displayed effective magic and destroyed the University of Yoranday.

I imagine that there were a cult to a sum god at that time

It seems that in the Guide, Orlanth is Present in Umathela. Worlath is just described as a 'false god' (even though it 'gains' power at the revolt.)
 

[Tindalos]

20 minutes ago, Manu said:

It seems that in the Guide, Orlanth is Present in Umathela. Worlath is just described as a 'false god' (even though it 'gains' power at the revolt.)

Worlath's a western name for a Storm God, found in the guide in reference to being worshipped by the ancient Seshnegi (408), and in Junora where he slew the demiurge Makan (216). Revealed Mythology states it's just a name for Orlanth, such as Baraku (Fonrit), Humat (Early Ralios), and others.

Most likely, Worlath was the name used by the God Learners and spread throughout their lands, much like Ehilm (as noted on 152), and may be used as a common name along with Orlanth even in the third age.

[Rob Helm]

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

I don't see Baraku as as a life stage for the Umathelan Orlanthi in worshipping Orlanth.  He's a parallel worship of Orlanth but with his own myths, strengths, associated cults and enemies.  Most of the Umathelans would acknowledge Worlath but as you get closer to Fonritan lands, you will find gangs of Baraku worshippers here and there.  

For what it's worth: The characters in David's Umathela campaign called their storm god and king of the gods Tyloque.

At one point, the characters were stuck in southern Pamaltela and wanted to summon a wind to fly home. So they asked the locals to find a place that they avoided because Baraku the bad wind was powerful there.

[metcalph]

One of the things that I really liked about RuneQuest: Glorantha is the Cult of Yelm.  It's not *the* cult of Yelm as worshipped in Dara Happa but Kargzant yet everybody around the Grazers calls it Yelm.  So I think it is with Ehlm, Worlath, Humct and others.  Even though they have God Learner names, they are not God Learner Gods but the Gods that were worshipped in Storm Age Umathela.  The Gods of Genertela are simply not part of the mythic landscape and accordingly have next to no influence in Umathela.

I've referred to the gods with God Learner names because even the elves use the God Learner names (Humct Garlo Guide p633).  If you want to use the Orlanthi names as much of the Guide does, then that wouldn't be an error but the Gods would be different to those of Dragon Pass.

EHILM. 

Everybody seems happy with the idea of this being the Elvish Sun God.  Although Halamalao is mentioned in the Sartar Compnanion p217, I find the description of Sun Follower (SC p115) to be more interesting.  He identifies his god with Yelmalio, Elmal and Yelm and cannot understand the human distinction between them.  Hence I think that the Elf Sun God is a composite of whatever solar gods are worshipped in the area perceived through their alien elf sesnes.  In the days before Monrogh, the Sun God of the Elves in and around Dragon Pass looked more like Elmal; afterwards it looked like Yelmalio.  The sun gods of other elvish woods will look different.

Hence the Umathelan Ehilm will look very similar to the Aldryami sun god but it's really the other way around.  There's some argument for the Elf Sun God of Vralos to have some Fonritan characteristics (Guide p553) and for the Sun God of south Enkloso to have Uz characteristics.  

WORLATH

The strongest influence for Worlath would be the Sacred Mountains (Guide p621).  Since the Guide elsewhere (p296) mentions the possibility of the difference in Sacred Mountains accounting for the difference in regional variation in Orlanthi cults, I don't see much possibility of the Umathelan Orlanth being a Manirian copy.

I believe the Orlanthi have a strong relationship with the Aldryami, not because the Aldryami conquered them and imposed the woodland judgments but because in the Storm Age, the Orlanthi and the Aldryami had a similarly close relationship.  The relationship looks imposed and unequal because the Orlanthi have forgotten it but the Elves are being patient.

 

 

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Manu said:

In Nikosdros, there are temples to Orlanth (not Worlath), Lankor Mhy and Issaries (And Dormal... Meaning that many sailors are worshipping Dormal and not the Invisible God)

The Guide for the most part uses standardised names.  Worlath is mentioned on p622 indicating or suggesting that Orlanth is known to the Umathelans as Worlath.  Other variations exist - Baraku and Coalot (Guide p640).  We only have the names of two others (Ehilm and Humct) and the remainder are unknown.  So even though Issaries, Lhankor Mhy etc might be known by different names, we don't know what they are.

7 hours ago, Manu said:

It seems that in the Guide, Orlanth is Present in Umathela. Worlath is just described as a 'false god' (even though it 'gains' power at the revolt.)

Orlanth is Worlath.  The description of Worlath as a False God is a Malkioni view as one who does not acknowledge the Invisible God.  even though the Malkioni might label Orlanth/Worlath false, he is not so according to his worshippers.

[metcalph]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is no indication whatsoever that the Slontans or the Manirians transported to Jrustela and Umathela were Malkioni, let alone kin to the Waertagi.

I see you are still throwing around the no evidence schtick (it being about a week since you last tried it).  I am not going to bother rebutting it because it's off-topic, ultimately irrelevant and when you are worked up like this, you waste people's time with your distortions of what was said and other bad debating practices.

 

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

The notion that the wizards would have ordered the Dronar and Horal caste folk from Seshnela (second migration, sent there by Nralar the Old, according to Guide p.621) to join the Orlanthi religion is surprising, to say the least.

"Surprising" being the word Joerg throws around when he can't think of a convincing rebuttal. As it is, your statement has an huge presumption about Umathela that I have no need to make and thus does not arise (namely why would the Umathelan Colaition bother preserving ethnic differences among the lower castes after four centuries).

[metcalph]

The Middle Sea Empire talks about the Emanationalists (p38) who seek to purify the Gods and Spirits into unity with the Invisible God.  They were popular in Pamaltela so my thinking is what if some of the traditional Orlanthi cults are actually purified cults?

The possibilities are Issaries and Lhankor Mhy.

Lhankor Mhy:  There's a few subtle details about Lhankor in Pamaltela.  There is a Lhankoring Temple in Fonrit that dates back to the God Learner period (Abbakar Guide p555).  There's the Ocean of Gems in Kallima which is sacred to both the Malkioni and Orlanthi (Araget Guide p629) and there's possibly the Lord of the World's Knowledge.

Issaries:  the basis for this is the Cults of Prax p61 in which the trade of the Middle Sea Empire is implied to be led by worshippers of Issaries

Rather than simply convert the rune magic to sorcery spells, I think their worshippers use sorcery to achieve mental unity with the God.  Most of the time, they are used for making judgments and divinations.  The periods of unity are biref and they are never called upon to do any important magic although they may have done so in the God Learner period.

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Issaries:  the basis for this is the Cults of Prax p61 in which the trade of the Middle Sea Empire is implied to be led by worshippers of Issaries

Rather than simply convert the rune magic to sorcery spells, I think their worshippers use sorcery to achieve mental unity with the God.  Most of the time, they are used for making judgments and divinations.  The periods of unity are biref and they are never called upon to do any important magic although they may have done so in the God Learner period.

So no trade magic?

[metcalph]

25 minutes ago, David Scott said:

So no trade magic?

They would have access to some Issaries magic although I was thinking of marketplace judges rather than travelling merchants and by important magics, I was thinking of wielding the God's power while in a state of divine unity.  I think it most likely that to learn trade sorcery (or knowledge sorcery in the case of LM), one approaches the Oracle for guidance - the Oracle then gives him a cryptic verse or two (the quality of which is dependent on how much was paid) which the worshipper then tries to reason which comes under Learning New Magic (RQG p389-391)

[Manu]

Then, if I try to summarize....

There are at least 3 Storm gods (Worlath (close to Orlanth), Baraku (may be more like Storm bull) and Coalot (And Tyloque?))
We have a equivalent to Humact (Humct)
We have a equivalent to yelmalio/Helmal (Ehilm)

Nothing (yet) of the equivalent of Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal, Chalana Arroy, Odayla,...

Ernalda is present but mainly the Aldryami side (like Babeester Gor)

Most probably myths are very different here.

No Lightbringer Quest I imagine

Life is not easy if I want to start a game in Umathela (Except taking Dragon Pass cults and putting them there...)

Edited August 9, 2018 by Manu
Missing Earth cults