Grapple damage

[PhilHibbs]

Grapple damage is listed as "Special". All I can find is the 1D6 damage for throwing, is that what it is referring to?

Should damage bonus be figured into this? I need to decide if I should display the damage bonus in the weapon section of my character sheet. I'm thinking if you are grappled and thrown by a giant or a great troll, it might hurt a lot more.

[MJ Sadique]

Should damage bonus be figured into this? YES but you should name it Grapple (+throw)

I need to decide if I should display the damage bonus in the weapon section of my character sheet. Obviously but remember you must grapple and then throw to deal damage

I'm thinking if you are grappled and thrown by a giant or a great troll, it might hurt a lot more. Not it just tickle a bit, you have sometime the pleasure to feel ALL you body so alive ... or not

 

You should pay attention to Falling Damage in Game system / Natural conditions and also more importantly to the skill JUMP which can be used to mitigate falling damage ( by 1D6).

Edited August 11, 2018 by MJ Sadique
correcting typping

[Joerg]

As far as I can see, grappling is not designed to cause direct damage but to immobilize an opponent, or to place him on the ground (preferably prone). Apart from wrestling, the grapple rules also come into play as result of a hit with a lasso.

There are (thankfully) no rules for dislodging a limb or for breaking ribs in a bear hug.

I don't see any rules for actively breaking free from someone having a (non-immobilizing) grapple hold. Other than the attacker failing a grapple roll, he keeps clinging.

 

Grappling doesn't appear to be a good close combat option unless you get lucky and capture the weapon arm of your target. Hold on to anything else and you will be punished by your adversary using a weapon, or boxing or kicking you.

As the rules stand, they appear to be designed for a "friendly" wrestling match with all kicks or strikes barred, something you do when tentatively neutral jocks meet and step forward to test one another's mettle. All very Graeco-Roman or Freestyle Olympic, and nothing like judo or jiu-jitsu where you attempt to use the force of non-grappling attacks or even just your opponent's movement to add to your own strength.

 

From my limited exposure to using something like grapple in unfriendly conflicts (during school) throws don't usually mean you lift your opponent uo in the air and crash them down (only did that once). It is more an attempt to put the opponent into a disadvantage "fallen", from where you continue to subdue. Without ways to modify those resistance rolls, I don't see that coming through.

 

The question is whether detailed rules for this are required. I guess one could write an entire book about unarmed combat maneuvers and how to port them to RQ combat, and entangling attacks or similar martial arts assisting weaponry. But that's like "gun porn" in contemporary period rpgs.

 

 

[Jusmak]

There have not been to much interest in unarmed combat amongs RQ game developers. While Special damage describtion would have benefit telling how extra damage is justified in weapon section (by hitting and damaging vulnerable areas for example), same thing would be benefial in martial arts and unarmed combat in general. 

But this only brings the effort of gamemasters to develop their own game in spirit of ygmv.

When giant grapples, big enoug giant could try crush inside handhold, he could rise humansized opponent high over his head and throw agains ground, or other opponent,so falling damage and damage mod. can be calculated.

What about aspyhyction/suffocation during grapple? As every grappler knows, most efficient way for a grappler  to finish single opponent out is not throwing but choking. A grappler doing only damage by throwing is not much of a grappler. Joint manipulation was developed to break joint of armored opponent, when hitting him with something did not disable him.

I would rather develop own ruleset for unarmed combat, than use what is written in rulebook. Expesially, when it is a matter of grappling/wrestling.

[PhilHibbs]

I think what I will do for the character sheet is leave the damage bonus in, and then it's up to the group/GM to decide whether or not it is appropriate to actually apply it in play.

[womble]

Traditionally, the general aim at any RPG table has been to avoid the grappling rules at all costs because they're pretty much universally unwieldy and unsatisfying. Unarmed combat is very difficult to simulate because a lot of people (including game developers) have no idea beyond watching WWE on a Saturday morning of what's possible with and involved in grappling for martial effect.

[soltakss]

Grappling rules have always annoyed martial artists as being nowhere near complex enough and non-martial artists as being too complex.

For me, we have used Grappling to break bones and so on, doing 1d3+DB, but only if the attacker succeeded and defender failed the grapple roll. 

Memorably, a Humakti PC was placed in a gladiatorial area with a shield and spear, but had geases of "Never use a Shield" and "Never use a spear", so he dropped them immediately, grabbed hold of the attacker's arm, with a critical grapple, broke the attacker's wrist, disarming him, with another critical grapple doing something like 12 points of damage, then wrenched the attacker's arm out of its socket, with a critical STR vs STR roll and proceeded to beat him to death with the bloody end. "I always wanted to do that", the player said afterwards.

[Jusmak]

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Grappling rules have always annoyed martial artists as being nowhere near complex enough and non-martial artists as being too complex.

For me, we have used Grappling to break bones and so on, doing 1d3+DB, but only if the attacker succeeded and defender failed the grapple roll. 

Memorably, a Humakti PC was placed in a gladiatorial area with a shield and spear, but had geases of "Never use a Shield" and "Never use a spear", so he dropped them immediately, grabbed hold of the attacker's arm, with a critical grapple, broke the attacker's wrist, disarming him, with another critical grapple doing something like 12 points of damage, then wrenched the attacker's arm out of its socket, with a critical STR vs STR roll and proceeded to beat him to death with the bloody end. "I always wanted to do that", the player said afterwards.

I think this is a good way to handle rules for unarmed combat. Rules can never simulate too well all possibilities, tactics of any combat sitiation. But from loose set of rules it actually becomes easier to bring life imagination and story of situation and outcome, if gm/player knows something what could be done. Unarmed combat is not so different from any melee. Historical swordfighting includes wrestling.

It is more frustrating, that rules are very timid and actually prevents players from trying things. Loose rules let player try and gm just figures how dice should be rolled to find outcome.

For a grappler it should be possible to automaticly choose hit location with succesful grapple, or at least it should be a lot easier. It is not like swinging a weapon and hoping it hits something. At close range you can almost always reach into any bodypart and have a grasp. When you are a bit more far, you do not reach and any opponents sudden movement may change location hit. So, my houserule at close range grappling is, that you can always try catch opponents weapon arm by normal grapple chance to head againts STR vs.STR contest. Struggle of possessing/controlling weapon comes quite naturally from anyone. And martial artist in me smiles.

[womble]

1 hour ago, Jusmak said:

For a grappler it should be possible to automaticly choose hit location with succesful grapple, or at least it should be a lot easier. It is not like swinging a weapon and hoping it hits something.

Somewhat unfair on the weapon masters: you almost never 'swing a weapon and hope it hits something'. Even the successive blows of a combination are aimed at putative locations. Sure, relative motion might mean a strike makes contact somewhere other than the initial aim point, but that's as true for a grapple. The 12s round of RQ combat is necessarily abstracted, and the abstraction has to apply to empty hand efforts as well as armed.

Quote

At close range you can almost always reach into any bodypart and have a grasp. When you are a bit more far, you do not reach and any opponents sudden movement may change location hit. So, my houserule at close range grappling is, that you can always try catch opponents weapon arm by normal grapple chance...

Which is the crux of the problem with simulating grapples (or even some real close quarters unarmed strikes) in weapon-focused semi-abstract attempts at simulation of melee like the RQ effort: there's little or no consideration of Mai-ai (fighting distance): you're either in melee range or not. Which isn't a condemnation at all of the rule system: simulating melee distances from pike to headbut with all the nuances between would add a level of detail that would be unwelcome to many/most gamers. The compromises inherent in the system just make 'satisfying' resolution of unarmed attacks (particularly grapples) difficult, and the abstraction level needs to be taken into consideration. How do you decide when a grapple is at "close range" in your house mods to the D100/hitloc/SR system? Getting past the weapon of your opponent is a perennial problem for grapplers that should, perhaps, not lightly be dismissed.

Quote

Struggle of possessing/controlling weapon comes quite naturally from anyone.

But is emphasised more in some arts than others (Krav Maga has a strong focus on weapons retention; Aikido teaches weapon taking and how to dispose of opponents trying to take your weapon off you; graeco-Roman wrestling and boxing don't address the question at all, generally). Maybe the "Martial Arts" skill comes in there somewhere. 

In the end, the RQ ruleset, at least when it's set in Dragon Pass, is rightly focused on swords and sorcery, rather than brawling, so the scantiness of the treatment of empty hand technique shouldn't be very much of a problem.

[Zozotroll]

What do you want to play?  RQG is about armored folk bashing at each other with weapons. Roughly bronze age.  I am not aware of any bronze age weaponless schools of combat.  Just as advanced weapons ad armor are not really part of the setting, advanced martial arts are not either.  Anytime you try to stretch a game beyond what it is meant to it doesnt do it very well.   RQG isnt really a martial arts game and all attempts to make it one are going to be unsatisfactory. 

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, Zozotroll said:

What do you want to play?  RQG is about armored folk bashing at each other with weapons. Roughly bronze age.  I am not aware of any bronze age weaponless schools of combat.  Just as advanced weapons ad armor are not really part of the setting, advanced martial arts are not either.  Anytime you try to stretch a game beyond what it is meant to it doesnt do it very well.   RQG isnt really a martial arts game and all attempts to make it one are going to be unsatisfactory. 

Palé goes back to 700BCE but even in simplest terms there are times when you just want to restrain someone 

[Joerg]

59 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

What do you want to play?  RQG is about armored folk bashing at each other with weapons. Roughly bronze age.  I am not aware of any bronze age weaponless schools of combat. 

Oh come on. Wrestling, kicking, boxing and dancing were a thing way back. Heracles was an athlete and master of all kind of weaponless as well as armed combat styles.

Are you telling me that the pre-Columbian Americans did not have their wrestling and similar somewhat ritualized combat styles?

 

59 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

Just as advanced weapons ad armor are not really part of the setting, advanced martial arts are not either. 

Define "advanced martial arts", then. While I am in no way a martial artist, a friend of mine is a middling rank Wing Tsun practitioner who lent me his style's literature, which includes a history of weapon styles like Greek Pancratio spread in the wake of Alexander beyond his conquests into India and north of the Himalaya, where elements of that were picked up by the buddhist monks.

Albrecht Dürer drew boxing and fencing styles which could be used as illustrations for Chinese martial arts. There are only so many ways a human body can be used as a weapon, and while the buddhist styles have taken the use of "non-weapon" tools as weapons to the extreme, the weaponless techniques have only gone extreme ways with e.g. Taekwondo designed to unhorse riders with high kicks.

Availability of weapons may make combat styles go out of fashion, but body shape and physics lead to very similar solutions with combat schools completely out of contact with one another. What I have seen of the Strasbourg school of 2hand-sword fencing (inherited by the Escrima styles of the Philippines) wasn't really that different from what I have seen of kenjutsu through the lense of its "sports" derivate kendo.

Kargan Tor, Celestial Court deity of the Conflict Rune (before it meant Death) had a divine court of combat where all martial deities showed up at some point prior to the destruction of the Spike, sharing and learning combat styles, or competing with one another for their own perfection.

With this mythic underpinning, I would be extremely surprised if there were no such traditions in Glorantha where conditions would further them.

59 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

Anytime you try to stretch a game beyond what it is meant to it doesnt do it very well.   RQG isnt really a martial arts game and all attempts to make it one are going to be unsatisfactory. 

I will grant you this - while the rules of RQG are fine for armed conflicts and may work for unarmed combats with both sides restricted to dagger, cestus or less, they don't really work well for cinematic conflicts between unarmed advanced masters of weaponless arts and sword or axe fighters, giving the blades (or clubs) an unfair advantage.

Reading the kung fu books on this topic, that is very much in keeping with the teachings of those schools. Going unarmed against knives is a good way to end up badly cut up, and you recognize the victor of a knife duel by him being carried alive to the surgeon by his friends. Other such techniques work when you have the numbers and the death-defying morale of unarmed people taking on armed opponents.

RQ has always been able to provide this form of realism, and breaking it by allowing the martial arts skill to parry more or less unarmed "absorbing" damage through skillful deflection of blows.

 

Martial arts btw is not synonymous with unarmed combat, although the RQ rules have usually depicted them as such. I think that a middle ground between what the RQG skill for natural weapons and RQ3 Land of Ninja Ki skills offer can be used.

The Martial Arts skill in RQG is limited to natural weapons. The distribution of such schools leaves out exotic (but present) places like the Red Dragon dojo in the Provinces (Tarsh or Aggar) mentioned in Arcane Lore.

There is a distinct possibility that all of these martial arts traditions originate in the mystic east of Glorantha. With the False Dragons Ring, Sheng importing Kralori to the Lunar Empire and Godunya's influence on the EWF, the distribution pattern in RQG can be explained.

 

[Zozotroll]

Of course there were all sorts of unarmed combat going on in the ancient world, and no where did I say to get rid of it.  I only have a couple of years martial arts training, mostly judo.  And I dont see a good way to add even that to RQG without a goodly number of rules to take in all the details.  Same with boxing, which again I have done, if not well.  

 

If you want detailed MA in your game, great go for it.  Maybe need a supplement for it some time.  Just as we dont have advanced fencing rules, we dont have  advanced MA rules.  And in the spirit of MOST of glorantha, we dont need them.  Which means we dont need the rules for it in the main rules.  

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Zozotroll said:

...  I am not aware of any bronze age weaponless schools of combat... 

Approx 3400 BCE is, I believe the oldest documentation (a fresco) that appears to show a system or "school" of unarmed combat.  Beni Hasan tomb 15 has rather extensive and apparently-systematic scenes.

[MJ Sadique]

3 hours ago, Zozotroll said:

And in the spirit of MOST of glorantha, we dont need them.  Which means we dont need the rules for it in the main rules.  

Not exact !

In the spirit of RuneQuest-Glorantha centered in Dragonpass and Kethaela we don't need them in the main rules. But don't forget that a sixth of Glorantha is the oriental part of the Genertela which actively use Martial art and Magic (Mysticism) ! I still be ok as long as  you never meet an oriental.

RQ-G campaign won't need detailed Martial art skills but If you always draw your weapon to solve a fight (a very orlanthi way of doing thing), you will meet Death sooner than you could expect. Boxing ad grappling is useful to not shred a drop of blood and also to capture an enemy without big risk of killing him.

Grapple, boxing and any kind of martial art is nice to your pocket money (unless you like giving Chalana your full weregeld every week....) and help you getting rich (by ransoming some folks). Advanced Martial art rules maybe not needed but advanced tactics of Martial arts are NEEDED !

[Zozotroll]

g33k, thanks, never know when you will learn something new.

 

MJS, yes I have no doubt that there will be some sort of martial art in the east.  And that it deserves a supplement.  I am a big fan of trolls, and am impatient for when trollpack comes out. That doesnt mean all that materiel belonged in the main book.

 

For good or ill the Orlanthi way is sort of the base of RQ and always has been.  And expecting the Orlanthi to do the smart thing is an exercise in futility.  

[Jusmak]

I do not know much about Glorantha lore, but something about unarmed combat. I think, it's been as long as there has been competition over possessions, mating, surviving. I doubt living in Glorantha would be so much different. If Orlanhti seeks for violent resulution, is he always in every place carrying a weapon, does he have to go home and pick it first up, or what he does if for some reason he is carrying a weapon in that instant?

Question about organised schools about unarmed combat, is same as is there teachers, who teach swordfighting amongs Orlanthi? Kenjutsu or fencing schools, why would those exist, if there would not be schools of unarmed combat? In any culture there usually exist at least some, who knows something about unarmed fighting, weaponmasters who teach not so often. Name a culture on earth where is no tradition of fistfight or wrestling. Weapontraining is quite often build up on basis of tradition of unarmed combat. 

Surely unarmed combat may not be a key element in play, but it could be - for a fun.  

It needs much houseruling, to become satisfactory, but it can be done. Or find other rulesystem, to simulate that. Rule about 'closing in' needs to placed, and I think Mythras is presenting that quite fine by opposed roll (for example jump/DEX vs. DEX/dodge or DEX vs weapon skill, if counterstriked. There is no such rule in RGQ, so it would need to be used in all melee. And yes, satisfactory level for grappling get an increase again  

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Jusmak

[styopa]

On 8/11/2018 at 8:25 AM, Joerg said:

There are (thankfully) no rules for dislodging a limb or for breaking ribs in a bear hug.

Why thankfully?

Seems pretty simple.

We use grappling that on a normal attack, it does no damage initially.  Then, at the end of that and subsequent rounds where the hold isn't broken, the grappler does 1d3+db to the grappled part, IGNORING ARMOR (special 2x, crit 3x) for each subsequent round.  On each application of damage, the grappler either does that, OR can reroll their grapple (getting a better grip) but of course runs the risk of losing their grip entirely (failure/fumble).  A parry of a grapple automatically does weapon damage to the grappler AND the grapple is automatically successful, unless the attack is fumbled.

If characters so chose or found special training, I'd probably allow them to turn specials into locks or throws or submission holds or something.

 

Grapples are a GREAT way for swarms of trollkin (or otherwise-feeble creatures) to take down even pretty-tough heroes.  Literally swam tactics.

Edited August 13, 2018 by styopa

[womble]

 

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Seems pretty simple.

 

My emphasis.

And that's the problem. If grappling was that useful, people wouldn't bother with weapons, just good armour. 'Weapon damage' against 'mostly plate' is only rarely going to damage the grappler enough to prevent the grapple going home (unless it's a great weapon, and some of those are the 'easiest' to try and get around, so that doesn't jive either). I can guarantee, that if you're closing to grapple me and I've an arm-length sword and space to step, you will be scrabbling at the sharp edges of my sword, unless you're very good indeed or have caught me entirely by surprise. Stop hits are called that for a reason. Or you'll be eating the rim of my shield. My choice. And if I do overcommit, miss and you grab me as I attack, I know about a dozen ways of applying the edge of my blade while throwing you so that you land in two bits (most Aikido throws can be executed while holding a katana and having your arms grabbed; the geometry means the blade will cut the uke). Weapon damage from a grapple. Cool, huh? But difficult to put into rules.

 

[styopa]

6 hours ago, womble said:

My emphasis.

And that's the problem. If grappling was that useful, people wouldn't bother with weapons, just good armour. 'Weapon damage' against 'mostly plate' is only rarely going to damage the grappler enough to prevent the grapple going home (unless it's a great weapon, and some of those are the 'easiest' to try and get around, so that doesn't jive either). I can guarantee, that if you're closing to grapple me and I've an arm-length sword and space to step, you will be scrabbling at the sharp edges of my sword, unless you're very good indeed or have caught me entirely by surprise. Stop hits are called that for a reason. Or you'll be eating the rim of my shield. My choice. And if I do overcommit, miss and you grab me as I attack, I know about a dozen ways of applying the edge of my blade while throwing you so that you land in two bits (most Aikido throws can be executed while holding a katana and having your arms grabbed; the geometry means the blade will cut the uke). Weapon damage from a grapple. Cool, huh? But difficult to put into rules.

 

Sorry, I wasn't laying out the entirety of our rules in all their detail, more intending to illustrate that making grappling meaningful wasn't that substantial a task.  

Even with just the simple version above, note that grappling an armed attacker is pretty dangerous: even if they'd attacked, any parry will cause damage to the grappler.  If the grappler doesn't happen to secure the weapon arm of the target, that target can freely attack (doing damage), and then parry again (doing damage) all before the grapple normally would get to do any damage...which is pretty vicious.  We rule that - barring a fumble, weapon attacks against someone holding onto you are automatically successful...it's really just a matter of how much damage they're going to do, and if it special or criticals.

If the target has a 2h weapon, yes, it's smarter for them to drop it and fight with fists.  (We allow people to parry with their hands as well.)

These rules work well for us.  It's incredibly dangerous for the first guy tackling an armed opponent, but in a world with healing magic, it's much less of a risk than the real world, obviously.  Of course, you can also strike to disarm, or grapple with a called shot to get that weapon arm.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, womble said:

 

My emphasis.

And that's the problem. If grappling was that useful, people wouldn't bother with weapons, just good armour.

That's kinda the problem with any new attack-if it works better than a standard attack with a weapon then people won't use regular weapons and regular attacks. If it doesn't work all that well, then people will stick to weapons.

I think stoypa is on the right track with making throws, arm locks, disarms, and such  "specials"  for grapple, and it might be possible to learn a new special with training. 

[MJ Sadique]

5 hours ago, womble said:

 Weapon damage from a grapple. Cool, huh? But difficult to put into rules. 

RQ-G / Combat / Grappling p224 : the rules already exist (to immobilize and throw), twisting a limb does not exist but it is as easy as creating a new weapon and disarm by opposing FOR+DEX in a simple test.

Grappling in RQ-G rules system is used to immobilize a limb, mainly the hand holding a sword, rending the attacker less dangerous and the rules states you can also use grappling to throw it and cause 1D6 Damage in random location. RQ3 rules are more detailed as special success can immobilize 2 limbs and a critical can immobilize the full body.

49 minutes ago, styopa said:

It's incredibly dangerous for the first guy tackling an armed opponent, but in a world with healing magic, it's much less of a risk than the real world, obviously.  Of course, you can also strike to disarm, or grapple with a called shot to get that weapon arm.

Like Styopa said this is exactly the good tactic to adopt ! ... Don't forget that "Spear vs Gladius", "Gladius vs Fist" and "Boxing vs Grappling" always follow the same equilibrium : the first is more powerful and deal more damage as long as they can maintain distance BUT when forced in close combat, the shorter-range weapon/technique is more likely to win. History also confirm us this :
-Roman used Spear to engage their enemy in melee and finish the with Gladius in close combat...
-Muay-Boran heavily use clinch fighting to deal damage to armed fighter without letting them enough liberty of movement to strike back
-Most MMA champions wins with grappling and submission not with a KO in boxing. (See for the judoka Hidehiko Yoshida mma records)

Grappling is not more powerful than a weapon, but don't forget a 1D6 damage could make you lose half of your HP; It is not as mortal as being impaled by a Gladius but still very dangerous. In this way, this explain why people intend to use weapon which are also simpler to use but Grappling still stay a good weapon, always ready to used and never get dulled with time... (it's also more easy to repair with a little bit of magic healing)

[soltakss]

On 8/13/2018 at 5:16 PM, womble said:

And that's the problem. If grappling was that useful, people wouldn't bother with weapons, just good armour. 'Weapon damage' against 'mostly plate' is only rarely going to damage the grappler enough to prevent the grapple going home (unless it's a great weapon, and some of those are the 'easiest' to try and get around, so that doesn't jive either). I can guarantee, that if you're closing to grapple me and I've an arm-length sword and space to step, you will be scrabbling at the sharp edges of my sword, unless you're very good indeed or have caught me entirely by surprise. Stop hits are called that for a reason. Or you'll be eating the rim of my shield. My choice. And if I do overcommit, miss and you grab me as I attack, I know about a dozen ways of applying the edge of my blade while throwing you so that you land in two bits (most Aikido throws can be executed while holding a katana and having your arms grabbed; the geometry means the blade will cut the uke). Weapon damage from a grapple. Cool, huh? But difficult to put into rules.

Most people play that you can only do something while grappling if you succeed with your grapple and the opponent fails, simulating that you have a better level of success, so maybe a critical/special against a success would work, so grappling doesn't automatically do damage.

Also, a grappler against someone with a weapon is always going to struggle, unless they have hold of the weapon arm. You can always use punch/kick/head butt to attack a grappler as well, if you can't use a weapon.

 

[styopa]

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Most people play that you can only do something while grappling if you succeed with your grapple and the opponent fails, simulating that you have a better level of success, so maybe a critical/special against a success would work, so grappling doesn't automatically do damage.

Also, a grappler against someone with a weapon is always going to struggle, unless they have hold of the weapon arm. You can always use punch/kick/head butt to attack a grappler as well, if you can't use a weapon.

 

For us it's a pretty straightforward order:

1) grapple attack, if successful

2) target's STR to resist immediately

3) at end of round, damage (if any) applied

4) on subsequent initiatives, the target can use one of their attack/parry/dodge actions to try to break free which is just straight STR vs STR (but you have to beat the grapple roll like an opposed roll - showing that if the grappler has a really good grip/lock, it might be quite hard to break free other than simply killing the grappler)

Edited August 15, 2018 by styopa