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Old Pavis - Ogre Island [spoilers]

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Hi! I was checking for info about Ogre Island in Old Pavis. Planning an excursion to it for my group.

It seems the island was active with Cacodemon worship around 1500 (HQ Pavis page 40). The troll occupation is between 1237–1539 (HQ Pavis p45). How come the ogres were active during the troll occupation? I read somewhere that ogres appeared magically on the island, which could be the explanation. But ogres are not active on the island during in recent Glorantha times, even though there are rumours of it. It seems the island is a target for troll and human raids (HQ Pavis p276), but without finding any Cacodemon activity (HQ Pavis p128).

Seems there are plenty of troll raids there. And it is also likely to meet human adventure parties. Then again, how can you be sure they are human? Even with a Storm Bull in the party there are rumors that ogres have been able to hide their chaos taint with sorcery magic (HQ Pavis p128). It is probably also a high risk encountering other chaos creatures like Broos, due to the nature of the ruins and surroundings. Probably a highly dangerous place.

Any input on Ogre Island in modern Glorantha times?

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Ogres might have shown up with the Sartarites. They tend to hide amongst humans, and resettling in the new city (c.1550) is an excellent way to escape 'rumours' and 'Uroxi' back in their original homes... But this means bumping things towards c.1539+.

Uggh. What if some of the original leading settlers of New Pavis were ogres...?

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In my Pavis, the Pavisites who remained after the trolls invaded hid underground. Some of them called on various powers to help them and one group, based on the island, called on Cacodemon. They turned into Ogres and have held Ogre Island since.

The Trolls hate Chaos and hate Ogres, but Ogres are a bit harder to kill than normal humans. Also, they are on an island that is hard to get to and full of heavily guarded tunnels. So, they periodically raid Ogre Island and then leave it alone. The Ogres withdraw into their blockaded tunnels and sit out the raids.

After the Lunars leave, the Ogres of Ogre island are probably in a similar situation to before. Argrath and the humans of Pavis want to get rid of them, but Argrath goes off to Sartar to attack the Lunar Empire and the Pavisites have other things to worry about. I would guess that the Ogres of Ogre Island remain in their stronghold, waiting to be attacked and to withdraw to their tunnels. In the meantime, those Lunar agents who remained are actively trying to ally with the Ogres and with the other Chaos of the Big Rubble.

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3 hours ago, Dragonsnail said:

It seems the island was active with Cacodemon worship around 1500 (HQ Pavis page 40). The troll occupation is between 1237–1539 (HQ Pavis p45). How come the ogres were active during the troll occupation? I read somewhere that ogres appeared magically on the island, which could be the explanation. But ogres are not active on the island during in recent Glorantha times, even though there are rumours of it. It seems the island is a target for troll and human raids (HQ Pavis p276), but without finding any Cacodemon activity (HQ Pavis p128).

Circa 920 ST (Pavis gateway to Adventure p35) there was a God Learner settlement which was known as Sorceror Town.  In 1200 ST (Map p38), the place is now known as Sorceror's Island of which the description is 

Quote

This fortified settlement is home to
the Jrusteli descendants. They are feared by the other
inhabitants of the city and have turned to evil demons
to defend themselves against the nomads.

Circa 1500 ST (Map p40), the Cacodemon temple appears.  The description is:

Quote

A tribe of ogres
reside here and summon Chaos
demons in unholy rituals at this temple.
At times they extract tribute from all the
residents of Pavis

So the Ogres are descended from God Learners (perhaps Barbelo the Stone who is mentioned in the Middle Sea Empire).  During the Troll Occupation, they turned to chaos and became Ogres.  As to why they are no longer apparently there, they probably took advantage of some magical act (the Dragonewt's Dream, the breaking of the Troll seal around the Rubble) to occult themselves so their stronghold cannot be magically visited.

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Outlining a partial history of Ogre Island.

Circa 920 ST, it is a refuge for God Learner heretics fleeing persecution elsewhere.  They were tolerated by the Pavisites and the EWF in that they could be relied upon to spill God Learner Secrets for safety.  An example of such a God Learner is Barbelo the Stone (Middle Sea Empire p45) who fled from Jrustela.  Barbelo is reportedly killed by a Storm Bully which is probably Jaldon's sacking of the city in 927 ST as he is unlikely to have arrived after the Closing.

Now the settlement survives the fall of the God Learners elsewhere.  I think although they knew the Forbidden Secret they due to their circumstances were not active practitioners of it (ie they didn't have the resources to warp myths) and this saved them from extinction.

Stepping forward to the Seventeen Foes period.  Although they would be one of the stronger groups arouund, they seem to provide very few of the Seventeen Foes.  The most likely candidate is Kagtang Four-magic who is a mightly spell-caster and the four magics reflects the God Learner view of the cosmos.  At this time, they are probably intensely disliked even by other Pavisites.

By 1200 ST, they have taken to evil demons for protection.  They are probably behind the creation of the Chaos Market (what later became the Devil's Playground).  Barbelo the Stone was accused of Atyar worship although that may have been a defamation.  

By 1500 ST, they have become Ogres.  They are probably the origin of the statement in the Guide p108 that "Ogres hold a dark and evil view of the universe, claiming that their god Cacodemon is the Creator, temporarily taking refuge in this world to reform it to its original image" which is unusually philosophical for psychopathic cannibals but understandable as being adapted from Malkioni philosophy.  The change probably came about due to their continued reliance on the Chaos Market/Devil's Playground.

 

Edited by metcalph
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Thanks for all information and suggestions! I have some ideas for my campaign which involves more chaos. Ogres are great for a subversive opponent, while other chaos creatures are more in your face.

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Also bear in mind it was originally Cradlecatch Island, so any treatment of it that doesn't include weird, hyper-powerful giant magical devices robbed from various cradles just isn't trying. Maybe that's how they avoided the fate of the rest of the God Learners, and the Chaos Market might have been based on/powered by one or more Giant artefacts? There might be one or more entire cradles on the island, possibly buried or in huge dry docks, or turned over. They might have defences for the island based on the magical defences of cradles. Lots of possibilities. Probably best not to over-play that angle but I think it should be there, particularly for artefacts that are too big to easily move and so never got taken off the island.

Edited by simonh

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11 Lights also shows us that Ogres can born from otherwise human bloodlines that carry the curse. Cacodemon waits in God Time to draw promising  initiands to Ragnalar's hall instead of Orlanth's and teach them the Ogre secrets.

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On 9/10/2018 at 10:57 AM, JonL said:

11 Lights also shows us that Ogres can born from otherwise human bloodlines that carry the curse. Cacodemon waits in God Time to draw promising  initiands to Ragnalar's hall instead of Orlanth's and teach them the Ogre secrets.

Cacodemon is Son of the Devil, son of Ragnaglar, brother of Orlanth.

I like the idea of Ragnaglar's Hall being a place where bad Orlanthi are drawn, something I've never really thought about before. Thanks.

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In my (Red Cow) game, Ragnaglar, though no longer surviving as a separate cult, is a sort of secret sub-cult of Orlanth, a hidden Thunder Brother, able to receive magic from Orlanth worship because the kinship cannot be denied. This may only be the case for those clans, like the Red Cow, in which occasionally ogres are born to human bloodlines. The ogres in the clan go through a sort of perverse initiation that starts out resembling Orlanth initiation until, they are driven from his hall. 

I admit this is largely for play reasons, so ogres aren’t immediately obvious as that one guy who has no obvious magic of Orlanth or other public deities, 

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