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Leingod

The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

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Yeah, that's the one. I hadn't known it was a Larnste thing, though I suppose I should've guessed (I guess it migrated south over the years). In that context, it's kind of interesting that it's so friendly to you (pretty much the only offer you can make that doesn't seem to work is offering it Elmal's protection). Maybe it's because the Hyalorings themselves are very different in their attitudes on change and freedom than the Dara Happans they broke away from, that they don't approach a weird magic rock inscribed with one of the Runes of Rebellus Terminus himself as something inherently dangerous.

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:41 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

I remember that Peloria is filled with various megalithic structures, like dolmens or something similar - so it might be a nod towards that? No idea, to be honest.

I wanted to get those in, but the map on p.348 of Guide to Glorantha shows them all way too far north (and probably under the Glacier). That’s always the problem with Glorantha, there’s always cool stuff just outside the map…

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1 hour ago, alakoring said:

I wanted to get those in, but the map on p.348 of Guide to Glorantha shows them all way too far north (and probably under the Glacier). That’s always the problem with Glorantha, there’s always cool stuff just outside the map…

Ah, straight from the source! Thanks for commenting. ^^

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Also, I'm a little curious on what information we can extract about the development and trajectory of the various Hyalorings. To do that, I'll start by reviewing what we know about the ancestors of the various Hyaloring clans, the Four Clans:

The East Clan was founded by “golden-eyed Zenangar of the Zervusa family.” When the four clan founders hunted with Dostal as children, Zenangar kept Nameforgot from crying out when they spotted an elk, learning the value of keeping quiet when you spot your quarry. After Hyalor suffered the second of the Three Wounds that killed him, Zenangar was one of the two chieftains of the Four Clans who tried to save him by “riding to the Gods War,” i.e. performing a Heroquest, but it failed without all four of them. When Hyalor made a circuit to all the clans to give them his last bit of advice before leaving to die, his advice to Zenangar was to “teach his people the difference between cleverness and wisdom.”

The North Clan was founded by “the one who would become known as Nameforgot, from the great but doomed Shilevasa line.” When they hunted with Dostal, Nameforgot saw through an illusion sent by the sorcerer Yenfar to distract them by spotting a detail Yenfar had gotten wrong, learning the value of remembering all you see. Nameforgot was one of the two clan chiefs who doomed Hyalor by refusing to ride with Zenangar and Basikan to save him; unlike Stelfor, he did it “out of fear.” Hyalor's last advice to him was that “his failures would one day be redeemed, even if he himself would not. Everyone needs someone to blame.”

The West Clan was founded by “squat and muscular Stelfor, who was a Bayyasa.” When they hunted with Dostal, Stelfor didn't stay his hand when the wounded elk pleaded for mercy and cut its throat, learning the lesson that the hunter must strike without qualm. Stelfor also refused to ride to save Hyalor, but unlike Nameforgot it was out of malice: he wanted Hyalor to die so that he could try to conquer the other clans. When the dying Hyalor approached him, Stelfor knelt before him and wept, asking forgiveness. Hyalor embraced him, and his advice was that he “should not seek forgiveness, but grant it to others.”

The South Clan was founded by “Basikan, grandson of Hyalor, from the Vashyasa, root of all our clan's families.” The Vashyasa are named for Hyalor's eighth and last wife, Vashya, who was captured and mortally wounded by his enemy Yenfar the Capturer; the son she bore (presumably Basikan's father) survived, but she didn't, and this was the first of the Three Wounds that Hyalor eventually died from. During the hunt with Dostal, Basikan stopped Stelfor from rushing the wounded elk, telling him they should wait until it had sapped its strength, thus learning the lesson that “to catch your prize, be willing to wander.” He also tried to chase after Yenfar's illusion to catch the sorcerer but was dissuaded by Stelfor, and afterward he was the one who recognized that Dostal could have dropped the elk immediately and was just using it as a teaching exercise for them (though I suspect other clans would give that role to whichever founder is their own). Basikan rode with Zenangar to try to save Hyalor, but it failed without Nameforgot and Stelfor. Hyalor's last advice to him was that “curiosity meant nothing if it did not extend to the ways of other peoples – even enemies, even the forces of Water, who had killed him.”

 

The South Clan, of course, is the ancestor of all the clans who, as of Ride Like the Wind, have settled the furthest south, right at the northern banks of the Black Eel, just across the river from a bunch of Vingkotlings, which obviously fits in with Basikan apparently being the one most willing to wander and travel far, and who is characterized as being the most curious. Hyalor's advice to him, of course, is directly related to what will allow you to complete the game; you're pretty much obligated to explore and treat with the Vingkotlings and others to succeed as a clan, and the good ending is Beren and Redalda marrying and their two peoples mingling and learning from each other as friends.

The implication seems to be that the North Clan and Nameforgot were wiped out and serve as some kind of cautionary tale for the other Riders. At least part of it might be that they were too timid to range far enough away from the Glacier and some calamity (or series of calamities) occurred because of it.

I think that the East Clan founded by Zenangar were the line of Hyalorings that went on to produce Ulanin the Rider, who married Orgovale and founded the Orgovaltes tribe of the Vingkotlings (who, incidentally, will appear as "horse-riding Rams" who invade and either wipe out or assimilate you as a bad end if you screw up badly enough that Redalda doesn't marry a Beren). Ulanin is, after all, said to have come "from the east." I'm not sure if that means the Eastern Riders went as far as Prax or the Wastelands as people assumed, though I don't know enough to rule it out.

Stelfor's the one I'm least sure about, and is actually why I decided to lay this out and ask this question. Does anyone more versed in the West know what might have happened to the Western Riders, who seem to have been more warlike than the rest?

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11 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Stelfor's the one I'm least sure about, and is actually why I decided to lay this out and ask this question. Does anyone more versed in the West know what might have happened to the Western Riders, who seem to have been more warlike than the rest?

Something to do with the Gamatae, perhaps? They're supposedly a different group from the Hyalorings, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if one was ancestral to the other, or there was some intermingling at least. The Gamatae, having different dynasties ruling over different parts of Peloria at the Dawn (including Pelanda in the west), seems to imply warlikeness.

But I'm just speculating.

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:41 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Are these stones very big?  I remember that Peloria is filled with various megalithic structures, like dolmens or something similar - so it might be a nod towards that? No idea, to be honest.

Blame the giants.  Their craftsmanship is awful and they just leave improv seats and tables lying around.

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Quick question from someone who's waiting for a non-iPhone version of the game and who has little idea about ancient Peloria - are the Hyalorings here in any way compatible with how Hyalorings are portrayed, say, in Pentmaniac's wondrous blog on Pent?

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OK, I found it: https://pentmaniac.blogspot.com/search?q=hyaloring

It's only slightly related to the era of SA, but what is there is different. (he mentions worship of Kargzant for example, the religious stuff is entirely different.)

Quote

"Both genders wear tunics, trousers and jackets.  Ankle-length cloaks for winter and waist-length for summer are heavily dyed and embroidered.  Coins are buffed up and sewn on, as well.
Hats are made of a waxed cloth core and fur trim, undyed for men, cloth one colour and furs another for women.  Shoes are hide sole and cloth or silk upper in summer, boots are ankle-length and of hide and fur for other times."

This part kind of fits, with a few exceptions.

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In response to the tyranny and self-interest of Manarlavus and his favoured Dara Happans we took to the saddle, while the empire withdrew into itself.

This part is mostly true, though the Nivorans had already taken to horse-riding prior to Manarlavus's demands, not as a result, because Hyalor and Samnal's followers were already calling themselves "Riders" and "Wheels," respectively.

Quote
The Kashis move from the steppe into the north eastern fringe of the Oslir Valley. 
Vuranostum the Handsome Equestrian defeated Argoom, champion of Hirenmador, and then the Veshtargos.  He organised the farmers as a workforce and as infantry, and established worship of Oropum in Yuthuppa.  He instituted Bier burial, to fend off buzzards.  His sons failed to hold back the foot barbarians from the south, and his grandsons were slaughtered by beasts and Huradabba, son of Vettebbe.  Huradabba the Vettebin shattered the Hyaloring holy places, and his failure to follow Kargzant personally heralded a decrease in Kargzanti power in Dara Happa.
Keternung the Explorer returns to the ancestral lands, rediscovering the Kashis and the Ungariong.
The Sankenite revolt cast the Riders out of the Valley, and brought a far greater human population onto the steppe.

None of this rings a bell for me, and the Hyalorings don't worship Kargzant; that role is filled by Elmal (as god of the sun), Hyalor (as god of horsemanship) and Gamari (as goddess of horses).

However, it should be noted that in Six Ages you and your neighboring clans are all only one of three surviving offshoots of the Hyalorings (the Northern Riders apparently having suffered some calamity). So if the Western or Eastern Riders took up the worship of Kargzant and so on it wouldn't surprise me.

Also, I note the thing with the buzzards: to the west in-game are a people called the Yeleni (or the Yanadlings), who have no gods but venerate a spirit named King Vulture. They seem to intermarry with the Ergeshites (there's an event where an Ergeshite warrior challenges one of your nobles to a duel as part of a test to marry a Vulture Priestess of the Yeleni named Ererera). The Hyalorings don't seem to like them, though, and I've noted that King Vulture seems to appear in Hyaloring myth as an enemy:

"Osara once fought their big spirit, King Vulture, scaring him away with flaming arrows."  "Big Vulture thinks much of himself, but is no king. Raven has always plucked his feathers." 

Another religious difference is the horse-based Spirit Society. As far as we've seen, the Hyalorings' primary spirit society is that of Raven (who may or may not be Eurmal/Trickster).

It also claims Gamara as the patron goddess of the people of Nivorah before they were forced to leave it. In fact, the patron goddess of Nivorah was Elmal's wife of the same name. Also, Nivorah was split between the followers of Yamsur's son Hyalor, who do venerate Gamari in a way similar to that presented (though their proper "patron goddess" is Nyalda, and Earth powers typically come from her rather than Gamari), and the followers of Elmal's son Samnal, who tried and failed to steal the secrets of riding from Hyalor and/or tried to kidnap Gamari (the one may be a euphemism for the other) but instead settled for capturing one of her daughters and creating the chariot for her to pull. So that also isn't quite right.

Oh, and the names present in the Hyalorings in Six Ages are... softer, I guess? Than the ones presented in the blog. Like, names like "Beren" and "Ulanin" wouldn't be out of place in the game but feel like they would be in the blog's Hyalorings, who seem to retain more Dara Happan names.

Edited by Leingod
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There's something I've been thinking about for a while - in the Guide, I got the impression that "Hyaloring" was the term used by the Theyalans, whereas "Hyalorong" was the term they used for themselves (a cognate ending to Jenarong, although one is a group, the other an individual, possibly extended to a dynasty).

What was the decision to go with the "Germanic-sounding" -ing ending?

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So it turns out we do know what happened to the North Clan. Or, at least, part of it:

Quote

Exploring to the <direction>, <Explorer> and company encounter an unfamiliar people who, surprisingly, speak the imperial language. They identify themselves as the Yanadlings, and claim to have once been Riders like yourselves. Their leader, Retva, who is both woman and man, says that their ancestors knew that the sun was doomed when their chieftain, Nameforgot, lost the Battle of Anguish Ford. So they struck out on their own, putting gods aside to deal only with spirits. Retva’s clan venerates Raven above all. “The sky is falling, and soon will be filled by dead stars and black feathers. Let us drape you in the Blanket of Beaks, <Explorer>. Beneath it you will learn Raven’s deepest truths."

  1. Accept offer.
  2. Give them gold from your honor belts.
  3. Hotly refuse.
  4. Politely decline.
  5. Punish their blasphemy by putting them to the sword.
  6. Ask to be transformed into a Raven shaman.(available after first meeting)
  7. Offer some of your magic as a gift.(not always available)

Their name seems to come from Yanade, one of Hyalor's followers who successfully bargained with Raven and so became the founder of the Hyalorings' spirit tradition.

Yandalings.png

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22 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

These are the same as the Yeneli? Are they the ones who worship King Vulture as well?

Unlikely. The Hyalorings don't recognize the Yeleni as related to them in any way and they don't show any signs of being related in the way that the Yanadlings do by speaking the same language. The Hyalorings might see King Vulture as an antagonistic force more often than not, too, since both Osara and Raven have apparently fought him at least once.

Edited by Leingod
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12 hours ago, Ufnal said:

Quick question from someone who's waiting for a non-iPhone version of the game and who has little idea about ancient Peloria - are the Hyalorings here in any way compatible with how Hyalorings are portrayed, say, in Pentmaniac's wondrous blog on Pent?

Speaking as the alterego of Pentmaniac, thank you very much!  Since I have not played 6A, I would not expect compatability beyond that of two ideas with a common inspiration. From what I gather, 6A is set over 1500 years before the HQ 'present', so there is much that will have changed.  Language, Religion, food and clothing, to name a few!

As ever, YGWV.

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1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Speaking as the alterego of Pentmaniac, thank you very much!  Since I have not played 6A, I would not expect compatability beyond that of two ideas with a common inspiration. From what I gather, 6A is set over 1500 years before the HQ 'present', so there is much that will have changed.  Language, Religion, food and clothing, to name a few!

As ever, YGWV.

Actually, Six Ages is going to be a multi-parter. Ride Like the Wind, the first part, is set in the Lesser Darkness/Storm Age. The next two planned are Lights Going Out, which will probably take place in the Greater Darkness, and The World Reborn, which is presumably the Dawn Age.

In other words, it won't be until the 3rd game in the series that we're even 1,500 years away from the present.

Edited by Leingod
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7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

What was the decision to go with the "Germanic-sounding" -ing ending?

-ling/-ing: It's Old English - follower of. Very common in Glorantha (Heortling etc.) probably dating to Greg's fascination with the Angles and Saxons.

Edited by M Helsdon

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8 hours ago, Leingod said:

Actually, Six Ages is going to be a multi-parter. Ride Like the Wind, the first part, is set in the Lesser Darkness/Storm Age. The next two planned are Lights Going Out, which will probably take place in the Greater Darkness, and The World Reborn, which is presumably the Dawn Age.

In other words, it won't be until the 3rd game in the series that we're even 1,500 years away from the present.

Yup, that is why I said over 1500, not wanting to get drawn into another pre-Dawn dating debate!B)

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11 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

From what I gather, 6A is set over 1500 years before the HQ 'present', so there is much that will have changed.  Language, Religion, food and clothing, to name a few!

Yeah, this distance and the fact that there really aren't any Hyalorings in this mold around is a bit of a bummer for anyone who wishes to use this material in current era Hero-/Runequest. I've really no idea how their traditions might still survive (the Pentians seem like very distant ancestors at this point). Maybe a campaign focusing on a Heroquested Hyaloring resurgence somewhere would be somehow doable, but there's not to much work from there. Maybe the last planned installment of Six Ages in the Dawn Age will help, but even that is a long time ago and Hyalorong is long gone from the maps.

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54 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Yeah, this distance and the fact that there really aren't any Hyalorings in this mold around is a bit of a bummer for anyone who wishes to use this material in current era Hero-/Runequest. I've really no idea how their traditions might still survive (the Pentians seem like very distant ancestors at this point). Maybe a campaign focusing on a Heroquested Hyaloring resurgence somewhere would be somehow doable, but there's not to much work from there. Maybe the last planned installment of Six Ages in the Dawn Age will help, but even that is a long time ago and Hyalorong is long gone from the maps.

A Vuranostum-based HQ would allow access to a fair amount of myth, as would 'Escaping the Evil Empire and the Ice.'  Never underestimate the length of reach of Oral History: a recent book documents Australian Aboriginal myths of the last Ice Age and the inundations that followed it! (Reputable research, not fanciful nonsense)

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13 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

-ling/-ing: It's Old English - follower of. Very common in Glorantha (Heortling etc.) probably dating to Greg's fascination with the Angles and Saxons.

I think you misunderstood my question - it wasn't about why the -ing ending exists in Glorantha, or what it means (I'm Scandinavian, it's very common over here) - but rather why it was priviliged over the alternative form "Hyalor*O*ng", in a game ostensibly from the perspective of the Hyalorong themselves.

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Why should "Hyalorong" be the primary name then?

(I honestly don't know David or Robin's reason, but to me it seems like an easier to understand name, a commonly constructed plural. Which for a game also played by non Gloranthophiles is probably good.)

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1 minute ago, JanPospisil said:

Why should "Hyalorong" be the primary name then?

(I honestly don't know David or Robin's reason, but to me it seems like an easier to understand name, a commonly constructed plural. Which for a game also played by non Gloranthophiles is probably good.)

It was my impression that "Hyalorong" was the endonym, and "Hyaloring" was a Theyalan exonym, if that makes sense.

I'm not trying to start problems, I'm just genuinely curious. I agree with you that "Hyaloring" is a lot more approachable.

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