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The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

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It's also coming to Steam, hopefully by the end of the year.

Also, from the subreddit, someone's been picking apart the end-game "Ritual" set out on by Beren and Redalda:

I hadn't really considered the idea that many of them are actually a different perspective on myths already known to us, just with Beren and Redalda being involved (with Beren sort-of standing in for Elmal, as well). Though I don't think "Rivalry between warlords" is actually "The Making of the Storm Tribe," because the tribe seems to have already been made.

 

Incidentally, I found an event-let where a Wheel clan will suddenly like you more, because: "The [Wheel] clan say they were visited by a golden hoop that rolled into their lands from the south. It spoke directly into their minds, telling them that all the clans would need to band together to face deepening darkness. A peculiar tale."

So yeah, the Gold Wheel Dancers were apparently trying to unify people even long before the Unity Council was formed.

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Hah, that was me over on Reddit!

My logic for the guess was: in Making of the Storm Tribe (the KODP heroquest) one of the options at the divine confederation moot is to wait for Ernalda to bring tribal regalia. If you do that, one of the things she brings is a Chest of Torcs for Orlanth to give to the clan leaders. Here she's making torcs to give to important gods, to calm them down. It doesn't have to be the same event, but it seems familiar. 

Also, there's a value called ch1summary in the bug file, which is set after the endgame heroquest is won. If you successfully talk down one of the gods and then asked Ernalda to make sure that what you said to them is remembered, you get ch1summary = "Beren and Redalda celebrated their union by helping Vadrus join the Storm Tribe." (Or Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, or Uralda.) 

(Then again, if Beren/Elmal fails at offering his shield, they say "This is the Storm Tribe, not the Fire Tribe!" So... conflicting evidence. But my guess was that it happened partway through the negotiations, when the gods are seriously considering forming an already-named tribe but most are also considering storming off in a huff. That, or it's another example of time being weird for gods.) 

 

I've had that Golden Wheel rumor with a Ram clan, too. And there's this exploration mini-event: 

Quote

On our way back from exploring the west we were met by a most unusual sight. I would call it a gold wheel, but it had nothing to do with the charioteers. A hoop of gold, as tall as a man, rolled up to us and began to sing. At first none of us understood it, but then it began using the language from back when Nyalda first fed usIt began to roll back and forth, in some sort of intricate pattern. After a while, it stopped."After simply humming for as long as it takes to bake a barley loaf, it sang again. “Tell the Feldichi that they must choose.” Then it rolled off, faster than an arrow.

I have no idea who the Feldichi are; I don't think they actually show up in this game. But they could be in one of the events I haven't gotten, or maybe the next game...

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1 hour ago, Sheliak said:

Hah, that was me over on Reddit!

My logic for the guess was: in Making of the Storm Tribe (the KODP heroquest) one of the options at the divine confederation moot is to wait for Ernalda to bring tribal regalia. If you do that, one of the things she brings is a Chest of Torcs for Orlanth to give to the clan leaders. Here she's making torcs to give to important gods, to calm them down. It doesn't have to be the same event, but it seems familiar. 

Also, there's a value called ch1summary in the bug file, which is set after the endgame heroquest is won. If you successfully talk down one of the gods and then asked Ernalda to make sure that what you said to them is remembered, you get ch1summary = "Beren and Redalda celebrated their union by helping Vadrus join the Storm Tribe." (Or Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, or Uralda.) 

(Then again, if Beren/Elmal fails at offering his shield, they say "This is the Storm Tribe, not the Fire Tribe!" So... conflicting evidence. But my guess was that it happened partway through the negotiations, when the gods are seriously considering forming an already-named tribe but most are also considering storming off in a huff. That, or it's another example of time being weird for gods.) 

Good points. I guess "Storm Tribe" is just the obvious name; there's a "Fire" Tribe and a "Water" Tribe and a "Darkness" Tribe all based on what the general ruling elemental rune is, so Air or Storm Tribe just makes sense when they're all discussing becoming a tribe where Orlanth will be king. And I guess the reason they're still identified as Orlanth's "tribe" when they aren't yet formally such is that Beren and Redalda already understand that it will happen, with or without their input, and the important thing is that they acquit themselves well enough here to secure a blessing for their peoples in the future.

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2 hours ago, Sheliak said:

I have no idea who the Feldichi are; I don't think they actually show up in this game. But they could be in one of the events I haven't gotten, or maybe the next game...

The wiki mentions that they once inhabited Dorastor sometime before the Dawn. An internet search reveals more info about them (and information/speculation?) on the Gold Wheel Dancers, courtesy of Jeff Richards:

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/worldofglorantha/2007.12/4609.html

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/worldofglorantha/2007.12/4612.html

Edited by Leingod
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17 hours ago, JanPospisil said:

Hey, Sheliak, I replied to your post about new runes on Reddit. :) 

Here are the ones I did: 

DtgkcXc.jpg

Thank you, that's really neat to see! I was having so much trouble figuring out what the components of Ekarna's rune were... And yes, it looks just like the tent where she displays her wares! 

And thanks for those links, Leingod! The Feldichi do seem rather mysterious; maybe the Gold Wheel Dancer has reason to believe we'll meet them in the future? 

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I was reading the Story Tent for my clan, and I noticed something I hadn't before: 

Quote

Before the horse era in Nivorah, continuing into the city cavalry years, heroes of our line took up arms in the War of Many Suns. Rival sky gods fought a war of succession in the heavens, and on the ground we defended against arrogant former rials who wished to yoke us to false worship and the renunciation of Elmal. This battle rages even now, and we are always ready to smash those who espouse Wrong Suns--especially Yelmalio, the Weak Sun.

Emphasis mine. I'm pretty sure Yelmalio=Little Yelm, but this is the only time I remember seeing him mentioned by this name. So that's interesting. And "Weak Sun" might refer to his lack of Fire? And of course, there's something appropriate about an empire  covered in ice that worships a cold and fireless sun...

This showed up for me when I had Dara Happans as my ancestral enemies. I wonder what extra lore you get for the other ones? 

Some things I thought of while rereading the thread: 

In most of the stories/advice that mentions Verlaro, he's there to make mistakes and be rescued by Osara. Sort of the comedic version of Nameforgot--neither of them ever gets to do anything right, but Nameforgot is doomed and Verlaro is always going to be okay in the end. But there are a few exceptions. 

There's a clan that calls on him in divinations, and has a special connection to him that they're proud of. And there's this: "Elmal called his son Verlaro to his side. The difficult journey to his father's position is what made him a hero." So he does get to be the hero of some stories--it's just that our clans prefer telling the ones about Osara, which require Verlaro to basically be a damsel in distress so that his sister can be heroic.

(They're also pretty inconsistent about his origins--some of my advisors have claimed he was born after the exodus, or that he was "sometimes mighty, but never a god" which contradicts "Osara and Verlaro". So... folklore is messy even when the gods are real, I guess?) 

Inilla and the Golden Bush: You can technically get Wheels to come to an Inilla rite, but it's extremely hard--I've managed it once, I think. At the end they congratulate you for getting the cooperation expected from Elmal's chattel, which is even ruder than they get about the other goddesses. 

Dostal Elk Hunter: Nameforgot was the one to notice that Yenfar's sending wasn't their quarry, but he doesn't get the aside about learning the lesson more thoroughly than the others. I don't know if that's a "Nameforgot can't do anything right" thing, or if it's because his accomplishments were lost along with his name. 

Yenfar: At one point, your advisors say that he was the child of a Ram mother and Rider father, and imply that he's the reason for the marriage taboo. 

Busenari Light Finder: I read the sister/daughter confusion as being an artifact of how old the story is. Busenari is the daughter of the Earth Goddess, so when Yelm was alive she was the daughter of Oria, making her and Nyalda sisters. But in the modern day, your people sometimes call her Nyalda's daughter instead, because Oria isn't terribly relevant anymore. 

Hyalor Tablet Maker: I've noticed something about the art that interests me. In almost all of the gods' world scenes, the gods have swirly patterns on their clothing (or skin or manes/tails in the case of nonhuman gods). Mortals don't. Here, Hyalor doesn't have that accenting, which makes sense given his odd situation... but neither does Samnal, either here or when he shows up in other myths. That makes me think that Samnal may not have always been a god either, despite being Elmal's son. After all, Cenala isn't exactly a goddess, despite being the child of two gods...

Ekarna Four Trader: We never do learn what Ekarna bargained away to get her trade rune, do we? Rogoros lost his Fire rune to get the Trade rune, but she's a mystery... (Nyalda's Bride Price refers to Nyalda sending her to obtain the trade rune, so before that she could have had a different role.)

Zarlen's First Wander: That line about Hyalor being like Zarlen in many ways reads a bit differently once you know that Hyalor was Yamsur's son.  (I'm also curious about the Wheel Witch, Zarlen's mother; I don't remember her being mentioned at all elsewhere.) I think there's a one-line mention that the Wheels do worship Zarlen, but yeah, I agree that he's got to be a marginal member of their pantheon. 

Relandar's Ranking: Osara does sort of pop up randomly to symbolize changing gender roles, doesn't she? Incidentally, the Wheels can ask for your help performing the ritual Relander Role Sorter. So a) they have a ritual based on this myth, and b) some of them probably do worship him.

Raven and Hyalor: Raven is interesting. It seems like the Hyalorings are more comfortable with Raven than the Orlanthi are with Eurmal because he's a spirit, not a god--Eurmal and his followers are more threatening because of that status, but Raven has a liminal position. Eurmal is a "bad" unreliable god, but Raven is a spirit, and doesn't have to be reliable. 

I like their detail that Cenala has pinecones in her hair. Given her backstory, it makes a lot of sense that she'd be an evergreen elf (insofar as she is an elf). 

Hero and Beast God: If you help the beast god, the hero swears vengeance against your clan and against Basmol the Lion. So, presumably Tada. 

And the debug file calls the scene where the wolf people appear Telmori. So I guess they're the Telmori's ancestors?

The Infithtelli: One event has a local Ram telling your that the Infithtelli have hated her clan since they split from them, so maybe it was a political schism?  There's one event where your explorer stays with an Infithtelli clan, and the chief wants them to promise to tell everyone back home that the Infithtelli are not cannibals, and says that it's always been a lie and a slander on them and their founding king. Of course, there's another scene where some Infithtelli want you to take a box to a local Ram clan (they pay you, but not much), and if you do it, it turns out that the box contains the skeleton of the local clan's former chief. (Both of those are on the wiki.) 

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6 hours ago, Sheliak said:

because Oria isn't terribly relevant anymore. 

Interesting. I guess she is only seen as the particular Land Goddess of central Peloria, and not the goddess of the Fertile Earth in itsef, then? This makes me wonder about the modern situation in Peloria: Oria is the Land Goddess (sort of the local equivalent of Esrola) and so Dendara is the local equivalent of Ernalda... but she is also associated with Sky(?), and Air through Entekos?

Untangling those Pelorian goddesses is always a mess.

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I'm sorry, I think I was misleading there. My Glorantha knowledge is almost all from this game and KODP; I know Oria is important to other people later, but not really the details of her role (although from this thread I know that in "modern" Glorantha she isn't considered to be Yelm's wife). I was only talking about her role in the game, to the Rider culture. 

In this game, Oria isn't very important to the Riders: she used to be, but now she's gone down into the underworld--possibly to join her dead husband--and she's unreachable to the extent that they're not sure if she's alive or dead. So in their worship, Nyalda has taken her place as queen of the earth and, possibly, taken over her relationships as well. 

I'm sorry I was confusing! 

 

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No worries. It does make sense, if Oria is the goddess of the physical fertile Earth (which is frozen), whereas Nyalda, like Ernalda, is more a goddess of the metaphysical/extended boons of fertility. So not just the literal earth, but animal and human fertility, happy marriages, group cohesion, etc.

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17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

No worries. It does make sense, if Oria is the goddess of the physical fertile Earth (which is frozen), whereas Nyalda, like Ernalda, is more a goddess of the metaphysical/extended boons of fertility. So not just the literal earth, but animal and human fertility, happy marriages, group cohesion, etc.

I'm looking forward to the next installment, when Nyalda and even Ernalda die.

Ok... I know, I know, they go to sleep.

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I wonder if we'll get to see the I Fought We Won and the Lightbringer/Lifebringer Quest from the perspective of the Riders/Berenethelli. That must be a maze of references to navigate for the writers.

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It does make sense, if Oria is the goddess of the physical fertile Earth (which is frozen), whereas Nyalda, like Ernalda, is more a goddess of the metaphysical/extended boons of fertility. So not just the literal earth, but animal and human fertility, happy marriages, group cohesion, etc.

Oooh, that hadn't occurred to me! But it makes a lot of sense that the freezing would effect the physical earth before the spiritual earth. And that would explain why Oria passed the Earth Queen job on, if she can't do it anymore... 

And in gameplay terms at least, Nyalda is even further away from the physical Earth than Ernalda was in KODP--none of her blessings is a food/crop blessing, and only one is related to (human) fertility. Mostly she 's associated with bonds between people: marriage, the Cooperation blessing that helps people work together, harmony/relations boosts from the Hospitality blessing's feasts...  To be Orlanthi about it, "No one can live alone." But I do wonder if the freezing of the Earth effects her, too... 

 

Anyway, I was curious about story tent variations, so I went poking around a few saves. It looks like it mostly varies depending on Famous Event and ancestral enemy.

There were 7 horse generations in Nivorah, 10 since the exodus (not counting the current one), and who knows how many pre-horse Nivoran generations. Named generations are: 

  1. Exodus Generation
  2. Generation of Enemies (Thengist, Goldtalon)
  3. Warring Chieftain generation (ends with Nameforgot's big defeat-)
  4. Far Travel Generation (“many inhuman foes beset us at this time”)
  5. The Madness Generation (emblems removed from the story tent to protect later generations from bad dreams)
  6. Healing Generation ("Erissa priestesses performed great deeds", presumably curing the madness that affected the previous generation)
  7. Fast Foals Generation (the clan splits five ways)
  8. Winter Generation (a time of extreme cold, so much that the Riders feared dying out)
  9. Rekindling Generation (“But then the chieftains of the Rekindling Generation went to the Gods War to brighten Elmal and warmth came back. Our chief for most of this time, <X>, gave more of himself than any other, leaving his heart in the sky hearth. The eldest among us remember those times, but soon we will only have these emblems to go by.” )
  10. Honey Generation (your elders all remember this time--it sounds like a time of relative plenty after the rekindling).
  11. Valley Generation (current).

First emblem is usually a Famous Event, but the Forces of  Water enemy can go earlier:

Quote

“This shows our long ago ancestors, known to us by deed but no longer by name, helping to make the boat that Anaxial used to save enough of the empire to rebuild after a great flood. The next emblem reminds us of something that happened much later. It depicts the Battle of Akashar, when Elmal led us against the wily Changer, who sought to prove him a False Sun. Eluding the many traps laid for him, Elmal proved with his sword and our arrows that change cannot be a property of the sun, and thus that he was true and the Changer false.”

(I was wondering if the Changer was Yelmalio or Yonesh, but looking it up on the Glorantha wiki gave me a Pameltelan trickster god, also known as Running Nose.)

Quote

It depicts wise Relander aiding Khorlavus at the Camp of Many Banners, showing him how the bird riders might cease to peck against us, but instead use their beaks in concert with our spears.

Quote

It depicts the breaking of Lunaknal’s bones. These occasioned his prayers to the Sky World, which summoned Erissa to heal this sort of injury for the first time ever.

(I am not sure why this doesn't refer to Kestor Brang.)

Quote

It depicts when the grain goddess Pela showed how to plant and harvest her golden barley. Our ancestor Sarsadiga was there in the celestial fields, and brought back the seeds and sickle.

It's interesting that some of the very early Famous Deeds mention female ancestors, despite how patriarchal the Dara Happans are. Then again, the Earth=female association seems pretty strong, going by how shocked your people are by Uldak being a male earth god. 

Quote

“It depicts the scribe god, Buseryan, who other Riders later forgot, writing the Gold Book in which the motions of the planets are laid out.”

(If you don't have an event or enemy in this time period, you get a generic battle as your first emblem, with randomized details. My favorite variant was "the clash at Weeping Hill, where we fought the drunken bears and destroyed them all.") 

The Werris Mur event seems to take place a bit later: 

Quote

And here are the Werris Mur, a wandering folk who claimed kinship with the mountains. Our ancestor Terekalan and their leader Yathis Yan hid themselves in a pine shelter for three days, and when they came out, our peoples were one, and now some of us trace our lineage from him, and others from her.

(I think that's my favorite of the famous events, as depicted here--it's a neat bit of foreshadowing for where the game ends up going!) 

 

Quote

Before the horse era in Nivorah, continuing into the city cavalry years, heroes of our line took up arms in the War of Many Suns. Rival sky gods fought a war of succession in the heavens, and on the ground we defended against arrogant former rivals who wished to yoke us to false worship and the renunciation of Elmal. This battle rages even now, and we are always ready to smash those who espouse Wrong Suns--especially Yelmalio, the Weak Sun.

(I already listed this one, but it's neat. And I think this is about where it goes in chronological order.) 

After Hyalor tames/heals Gamari, there's this: 

Quote

Here you see emblems marking great battles against the Rams, whose god slew the Sun Father. We gained power against them by swearing to fight them forever.

It's the same for both ways you can pick Ram ancestral enemies in clan creation--I was hoping that they'd be different, oh well. Although it's interesting in its own way--it makes it sound like the ancestors made a conscious decision to become the sworn enemies of the Rams in order to gain power against them. A couple of others sound like that too.

Chaos comes in at the same time. 

 

Quote

Here you see emblems marking the emergence of Chaos, a force we still little comprehend. Its harbringer, the Scorpion Queen, sent a monstrous army to demand surrender from a sister city. During these victories we learned the secrets needed to fight all her brood.

Your minor god gets a mention during the exodus: 

Quote

Here you see <us dismantling Tepekos’s forge so we could bring it with us>/<us packing the sky-gazing statue of Buseryan along with his most sacred scrolls>/<us loading the Narva Cauldron onto a travois>/<Perondeto’s transparent statue being carefully packed in straw for the trip>/<the children gathering the red-dye insects to tuck inside a statue of Nocheli>.

The trolls might actually be before the minor gods bit, not sure. Like the Ram choice, it doesn't seem to vary. 

Quote

Here you see emblems marking great battles against the trolls, and the power we gained against them by swearing ourselves their enemies.

The last two Famous Events actually happen after Yenfar is mentioned, so well after the exodus: 

Quote

That is when our ancestor Alarya rode to the sky pasture and said, “The children stay fat while the adults starve,” and Busenari Cow Mother replied, “Then like my babies, Riders young and old may now sustain themselves on milk.”

(Which ties back into the part in "Busenari Finds the Light" where the narration says everyone in Yelm's time drank mead instead of milk. I wonder if lactose tolerance is a divine gift in Glorantha, like so much else? Probably it is.)

Quote

This is when the god Ekarna first showed us she had bartered for the Trade Rune. See how she demonstrates this, by arranging an exchange of goods between two sides hostile to each other: the cold dwarves of Nida Mountain and the hot jungle folk of Genert’s Garden.

I know that the dwarves can recognize your ancestors as involved in this event; I wonder if the people of Genert's Garden can? (They do show up in the game: https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/Agimori_Visit ) 

The elves and dwarves only appear as enemies during the Far Travel generation. 

Quote

The worst [inhuman foes] were the elves, who came upon us by stealth whenever we tried to chop down a tree. Our ancestors learned how to counter their sneaky way of killing, and swore that no descendent of theirs would ever make peace with them.

Quote

The worst were the dwarves, who came down at us from mountains of iron. Our ancestors learned how to fight them, and swore that no descendant of theirs would ever forget their pitiless cruelty.

 

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My favorite variant was "the clash at Weeping Hill, where we fought the drunken bears and destroyed them all.") 

I was originally pushing for the tent to be fully illustrated and I even did a test, including this very event. ;) (it ended up being too much work, so we focused on finishing the actual scene art instead.)

nwUno93.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Sheliak said:

[Battle of Akashar]

[War of Many Suns]

I'm thinking these may be connected events. The Battle of Akashar, as something that happened after the flood, may be a battle of the War of Many Suns, specifically against Sedenya, also known as the Changer (GRoY 14), and a false sun (24, 31) who started the war.

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2 hours ago, Sheliak said:

(I was wondering if the Changer was Yelmalio or Yonesh, but looking it up on the Glorantha wiki gave me a Pameltelan trickster god, also known as Running Nose.)

Could be Eurmal. Could be Larnste. Could also be a Western Sorcerer (one of the Blue People) doing some pre-/proto-God Learner meddling (unlikely, but not impossible).

3 hours ago, Sheliak said:

It's the same for both ways you can pick Ram ancestral enemies in clan creation--I was hoping that they'd be different, oh well. Although it's interesting in its own way--it makes it sound like the ancestors made a conscious decision to become the sworn enemies of the Rams in order to gain power against them. A couple of others sound like that too.

Sounds a bit like a collective geas to me.

3 hours ago, Sheliak said:

(Which ties back into the part in "Busenari Finds the Light" where the narration says everyone in Yelm's time drank mead instead of milk. I wonder if lactose tolerance is a divine gift in Glorantha, like so much else? Probably it is.)

Sounds like Alarya heroquested for lactose tolerance, which is pretty dang cool.

3 hours ago, Sheliak said:

I know that the dwarves can recognize your ancestors as involved in this event; I wonder if the people of Genert's Garden can? (They do show up in the game: https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/Agimori_Visit ) 

Wait... Genert's people are Agi? I mean, I know the Men-and-a-Half supposedly migrated to Prax in the God Time, but I thought that was after they became Wastes. These Agimori aren't explicitly mentioned as being taller than average, so it would seem they are a different Pamaltelan people. And Tadans/the Oasis folk aren't described as being Agimori-looking anywhere I know of, so the conclusion I guess is that Genert had a lot of different groups/ethnicities living in his domain.

1 hour ago, JanPospisil said:

I was originally pushing for the tent to be fully illustrated and I even did a test, including this very event. ;) (it ended up being too much work, so we focused on finishing the actual scene art instead.)

nwUno93.jpg

 

Hm, some kind of proto-Odaylans of God Time Sylila, before they were subsumed into the wider Vingkotling/Heortling culture, perhaps?

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3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Wait... Genert's people are Agi? I mean, I know the Men-and-a-Half supposedly migrated to Prax in the God Time, but I thought that was after they became Wastes. These Agimori aren't explicitly mentioned as being taller than average, so it would seem they are a different Pamaltelan people. And Tadans/the Oasis folk aren't described as being Agimori-looking anywhere I know of, so the conclusion I guess is that Genert had a lot of different groups/ethnicities living in his domain.

As well as the Men-and-a-half there are also the Pygmies (now Impala and Wasp-Riders).  In the Book of Heortling Mythology, there is mention of a Great Spirit Army under the leadership of Karjarkan who invades the Vingkoltings (p34, Map p74 and legend p75).  This is during the Flood so the land is still fertile then.  Identifying them as being from Pamaltela, roughly lines up with Greg's thinking (a low bar I grant you but still...)

It gets worse.  Even in the earliest writings about Prax (Nomad Gods 1st ed rulebook p65), there is mention of Storm Bull being an invader while the Tadashi are natives  It just so happens that there is another known land of Beast-Riding Nomads - Umathela, home to Desero's Horde which menaced the Artmali Empire.  Might the Sons of Storm Bull have been part of the invading Agi army alongside the  Agimori, the Pygmies, the Zaranistangi and the Basmoli?  I conjecture wildly, you decide!

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6 hours ago, Sheliak said:
Quote

“This shows our long ago ancestors, known to us by deed but no longer by name, helping to make the boat that Anaxial used to save enough of the empire to rebuild after a great flood. The next emblem reminds us of something that happened much later. It depicts the Battle of Akashar, when Elmal led us against the wily Changer, who sought to prove him a False Sun. Eluding the many traps laid for him, Elmal proved with his sword and our arrows that change cannot be a property of the sun, and thus that he was true and the Changer false.”

(I was wondering if the Changer was Yelmalio or Yonesh, but looking it up on the Glorantha wiki gave me a Pameltelan trickster god, also known as Running Nose.)

I see a parallel between this and the GRoY's account of Mernita's rebellion against Dara Hapa pitting Sedenya the Changer against Antirius.

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7 hours ago, metcalph said:

As well as the Men-and-a-half there are also the Pygmies (now Impala and Wasp-Riders).

These Pygmies are wareran by facial features, although the Impala riders are very dark skinned. They are considerably (30%) taller than the Errinoru pygmies. Pygmies-and-a-half?

Other Genertelan pygmies include the Gopher People of Pent (possibly Wareran, possibly Kralori) and the Teshnan Pujaleg (who are Kralori by appearence)

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

In the Book of Heortling Mythology, there is mention of a Great Spirit Army under the leadership of Karjarkan who invades the Vingkoltings (p34, Map p74 and legend p75). 

Sure? The Vingkotlings were invading and invaded by about anyone still on the map in the lesser and Greater Darkness, but at the time of the Flood, there were no Vingkotlings yet. Vingkot was born during the Flood Age.

Valon is the site of a great spirit invasion from Genert's Garden, and Genert (and his fellow Great Spirits) are such spirits. It roughly corresponds to westernmost Prax - the Good Place or the Better Place.

It would also have been the place where Vingkot, after slaying the Sylilan Grizley, would have wooed Tada's twin daughters to become the mothers of his dynasties.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

This is during the Flood so the land is still fertile then. 

The loss of fertility and the great sleep of the earth have often been tied to the death of Yelm, the death of Genert or Flamal, or the pretended death of Ernalda. These events are spread over more than an entire Age with three God Learner maps.

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Identifying them as being from Pamaltela, roughly lines up with Greg's thinking (a low bar I grant you but still...)

When Greg still insisted on the strict separation of the Otherworlds prior to the Hero Wars, he still maintained that theist Genertela and animist Pamaltela had merged before either Danmalastan nor Vithela collided with the pair of them. That was how Great Spirits like Genert or SurEnsliba ended up in the middle of the theist lands of the north.

A spirit army attacking the Vingkotlings (long post-flood) could have come from the western Hykimi, from Genert's Garden, or from the north from the Darjiinian and Doblian marshes. The foothold in Valon may simply have been refugees from central Prax evading the flood to the west rather than to the east.

By the reckoning of that period in Greg's creativity, the spirit army in Valon could have been beast riders.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

It gets worse.  Even in the earliest writings about Prax (Nomad Gods 1st ed rulebook p65), there is mention of Storm Bull being an invader while the Tadashi are natives  It just so happens that there is another known land of Beast-Riding Nomads - Umathela, home to Desero's Horde which menaced the Artmali Empire.  Might the Sons of Storm Bull have been part of the invading Agi army alongside the  Agimori, the Pygmies, the Zaranistangi and the Basmoli?  I conjecture wildly, you decide!

Yes, Storm Bull and the Founders, and their folk the Beast Riders, all are immigrants to Genert's Garden, and only through their marrriae to (and subsequent generations' descent from) Eiritha did they gain a connection to (part of) the Garden.

Other beast riders of Genertela include the horse riding Galanini/Enerali of Ralios, the Enjoreli bull folk of Loskalm, the Bisosae bull riders of Oronin, the Andam horde (who may have been charioteers rather than riders), and the stag-riding Pralori. The Loper People in Melib appear to be rather late arrivals.

Storm Bull and his sons left the slopes of the Spike long before there was Chaos to be fought in Genert's lands.

The Men-and-a-Half arrived after pursuing Filth-that-walks north and east. That's after Faralinthor and other intermediate seas had dried out, and before the Breaking of the World which returned the waters to the south of Genertela, and the resurge of Sshorg.

The Tada-shi are the original people of Genert, a presumably fairly dark-skinned Wareran people similar to the Dronari children of Kala and Malkion Aerlitsson, just as all Praxians with the exception of the Men-and-a-half are Wareran by phenotype. Even the pygmies (whether Impala, Bolo Lizard or Ostrich riders).

 

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22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

These Pygmies are wareran by facial features, although the Impala riders are very dark skinned. They are considerably (30%) taller than the Errinoru pygmies. Pygmies-and-a-half?

Joerg, there is really no need to parade your erudition and try and nitpick things into the ground.  It's dull and tedious and adds nothing,

 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Other Genertelan pygmies include the Gopher People of Pent (possibly Wareran, possibly Kralori) and the Teshnan Pujaleg (who are Kralori by appearence)

The description of the Genertelan Pujaleg says nothing about them looking Kralori in appearance.  Could you even bother to question your own assumptions before posting?

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sure? The Vingkotlings were invading and invaded by about anyone still on the map in the lesser and Greater Darkness, but at the time of the Flood, there were no Vingkotlings yet. Vingkot was born during the Flood Age.

If you even bothered to look at the reference that I gave - you will see the Vingkotlings amply mentioned in the text and the map.  I have no time for your assertion that Vingkot was born in the Flood Age because it's just another needless assumption that you have made for which the evidence is scant (don't bother trying to defend it, it will only lead to more of the same) 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

When Greg still insisted on the strict separation of the Otherworlds prior to the Hero Wars, he still maintained that theist Genertela and animist Pamaltela had merged before either Danmalastan nor Vithela collided with the pair of them.

I really have see no evidence for this statement of Greg and quite frankly I don't believe it.  You should do better than to rely on pronouncements from Greg that nobody else has ever heard.

 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Other beast riders of Genertela include the horse riding Galanini/Enerali of Ralios, the Enjoreli bull folk of Loskalm, the Bisosae bull riders of Oronin, the Andam horde (who may have been charioteers rather than riders), and the stag-riding Pralori. 

Except that the various people you list don't acutally have a tradition of coming from Pamaltela (or the South), do they?

 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Storm Bull and his sons left the slopes of the Spike long before there was Chaos to be fought in Genert's lands.

The Men-and-a-Half arrived after pursuing Filth-that-walks north and east.

They did?  All that is said is that they went north to fight chaos.  No mention of when or if they were pursuing a god.  Since Umath himself fought Chaos, you cannot use the motivation of the Agimori to date their journey,

 

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's after Faralinthor and other intermediate seas had dried out, and before the Breaking of the World which returned the waters to the south of Genertela, and the resurge of Sshorg.

Again, there's another needless assumption.  There was ample land before the Flood to make the trip.

 

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An illustrated version of the story tent would have been awesome! ... but yeah, also a ton of work (all those variations!), so I can see why it didn't happen. The drunken bears are great, though! 

I like the idea of Sedenya being the Changer Elmal fought. 

 

Some (potentially silly) speculation about antlers and deer people: 

Heort seems fairly likely to figure in this game, considering it’s about Orlanthi in the Great Darkness. I tried to look up Heort’s tribe on the Glorantha wiki, since I was curious about how he might come in. And I couldn’t find anything. (I did find out that the Berenethtelli king contemporary with Heort was a guy called Venef the Stallion, though, and a direct descendant of Beren and Redalda.) Heort has parents, who have histories and families. He’s got a clan. But no tribe. (Maybe because he’s supposed to be an ancestor to all Orlanthi, so no one has that extra claim on him? Alternately, I am just really bad at navigating that wiki.) 

Heort’s mother is Red Drenyan, Vingan warrior of the Alynx Clan, who had an Esrolian marriage despite owning only one sword and two spears, which implies either that her clan couldn't afford to give up any warriors or that her husband was even poorer. The Alynx Clan live in Dragon Pass, but they have no tribe listed. 

Heort’s father (who married into Drenyan’s clan) is Darndrev the Horned, who had antlers on his head and came came from the Winter Deer People. 

One page of the Glorantha wiki says that the Winter Deer People may have relied on shapeshifting to survive the Darkness; another says that Heort’s grandfather was cursed to take the form of a deer by his lover, and that his descendants had deer traits after that. But the name “Winter Deer People” definitely makes me think of the Omaseg—who herd reindeer, travel in constant winter, and may be deer hsunchen—even though the details don’t quite match up. And the “antlers on his head” line makes me think of the forbidden worship of Seg, the Stag Father (forbidden because those who wore antlers were at risk of turning evil). And there’s the Antler Society… 

And one more thing: Both Darndrev and Drenyan were killed by the terrible monster Mogjorbor, who could grow any kind of antlers on his head. 

So. Mogjorbor doesn’t sound exactly like the antler monster from “Rivalry between warlords”, but they do remind me of each other. And I’m really curious about Darndrev.

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22 minutes ago, Sheliak said:

the Omaseg—who herd reindeer, travel in constant winter, and may be deer hsunchen

Those sound more like the Uncolings, the reindeer hsunchen.

 

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4 hours ago, Sheliak said:

Heort seems fairly likely to figure in this game, considering it’s about Orlanthi in the Great Darkness. I tried to look up Heort’s tribe on the Glorantha wiki, since I was curious about how he might come in. And I couldn’t find anything. (I did find out that the Berenethtelli king contemporary with Heort was a guy called Venef the Stallion, though, and a direct descendant of Beren and Redalda.) Heort has parents, who have histories and families. He’s got a clan. But no tribe. (Maybe because he’s supposed to be an ancestor to all Orlanthi, so no one has that extra claim on him? Alternately, I am just really bad at navigating that wiki.) 

Were tribes still around at the time of the zenith of the Darkness?

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