Reskinning Cults

[simonh]

4 hours ago, Zozotroll said:

Humakti in every group I have ever played with is seen as humorlesss, stick up the butt Puritan debbiedowners.  Yet I had a guy play one, ad his real wife played an initiate of Uleria, who are holy prostitutes.  Not what you think was a good party, but the role playing was outstanding.  So having a problem being a necro is not the same as it being unplayable.

I don't see any particular reason why a Humakti would be prudish about sex, because of being a Humakti. Traditionalist minded Orlanthi are the ones that are big on family and social cohesion. A Humakti's concerns are oaths and valour in combat. They're not big on family ties and they're just as human as anyone.

Humakt and Ulerian are in some ways like  the martial aspect of Orlanth and sexual aspect of Ernalda taken outside their social role and context, making them similar and perhaps sympathetic or balancing forces to each other in some ways while also having the potential to be be destructive to society in others. Plus I'm pretty sure warriors and the 'oldest profession' have had a close association since the dawn of time.

[Zozotroll]

I am sure the first customer as a soldier.   And I am not sure where the grim Humakti comes from, but I have seen it a lot.(and after all I have seen such a huge amount of the total 🤣).

[Grimmshade]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

One way to play this, if you don't want the Necromancer figure to be "evil", is to use Ty Kora Tek, the dark earth deity who is the Keeper of the Dead (and ruler over the Necropoli, particularly in Esrolia).  She knows the ways to Prepare Corpses and how to Speak to the Dead, and how to Free or Bind Ghosts.  In the Esrolian lands, once per year (a Day of the Dead), the dead ancestors come out of the Necropoli and go along the Sacred Way to the cities to visit their relatives.

Unlike Zorak Zoran undead, the skeletons or mummies of Ty Kora Tek would still have their soul, but would be bound by the ways of Ty Kora Tek to never speak (except on the Day of the Dead).  Potentially a priestess of Ty Kora Tek might have a reason or mission on which to send one of the dead (perhaps as a guide or guardian to some living being, most likely an Earth priestess).  Ty Kora Tek does not like "undead" though - the soulless constructs of Zorak Zoran or evil sorcerers or chaos.

Although there is no writeup yet for Ty Kora Tek, you could use the following (which is a bit of a blend of Daka Fal, Humakt, the noted subcult spell for Ty Kora Tek, and Zorak Zoran):

Runes: Earth, Darkness, Death

Cult Skills: Cult Lore (Ty Kora Tek), Prepare Corpse, Speak (Spiritspeech), Spirit Combat, Spirit Lore, Worship (Ty Kora Tek)

Spirit Magic: Detect Spirit, Detect Undead, Dispel Magic, Silence, Spirit Screen

Common Rune Magic: All.
Special Rune Magic: Absorption, Bind Ghost, Bless Grave, Create Revenant, Free Ghost, Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor.  

[Whether you want to include Create Revenant or not would be up to you.  Probably would not be a standard TKT rune magic, but if you want to emphasize Necromancy, then include it.  Instead of binding a ZZ cultist, it would bind an Earth Priestess to her mortal form.  That could of course be a dead Babeester Gor Axe Maiden, which might be quite scary.]

This is amazing, thank you!

What would you suggest for starting cult skills and percentages?

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

One way to play this, if you don't want the Necromancer figure to be "evil", is to use Ty Kora Tek, the dark earth deity who is the Keeper of the Dead (and ruler over the Necropoli, particularly in Esrolia).  She knows the ways to Prepare Corpses and how to Speak to the Dead, and how to Free or Bind Ghosts.  In the Esrolian lands, once per year (a Day of the Dead), the dead ancestors come out of the Necropoli and go along the Sacred Way to the cities to visit their relatives.

Unlike Zorak Zoran undead, the skeletons or mummies of Ty Kora Tek would still have their soul, but would be bound by the ways of Ty Kora Tek to never speak (except on the Day of the Dead).  Potentially a priestess of Ty Kora Tek might have a reason or mission on which to send one of the dead (perhaps as a guide or guardian to some living being, most likely an Earth priestess).  Ty Kora Tek does not like "undead" though - the soulless constructs of Zorak Zoran or evil sorcerers or chaos.

That's the beauty of Glorantha, it can turn things upside down.

So, Necromancers are not always evil, for example.

Edited September 30, 2018 by soltakss

[styopa]

I'd submit, however, that any Necromantic approach - no matter how soft-sell it is - will have "issues" (either or greater or lesser, up to you) with Humakt "Dead things should stay that way" cultists, as well as probably the majority of ancestor-worshiping Hsunchen.  I mean, that revenant you animate may have been Uncle George, or the spirit you use to animate that corpse may have been Aunt Georgina who didn't have a chance to safely "pass on" before some Necromancer grabbed her.

[Joerg]

To answer the original post, there is no upper limit to the number of cults or deities if you include subcults or weird sects worshipping only an aspect of a deity.

Quite a lot of deities have inherited deeds (i.e. magical feats) of other deities that vanished in the Gods War, or even deities whose cults became minor and then were adopted by the bigger cult.

 

On 9/29/2018 at 4:15 PM, Grimmshade said:

The Zorak Zorn cult itself doesn't really suit what we are looking for (being a troll berzerker cult or something), but those spells are exactly what I was thinking of transferring to a new cult. Maybe a necromancy sect of an existing cult?

There is Zolan Zubar, described in Heortling Mythology as a spirit society within the Heortling Kolating shamanic tradition, but in the Dawn Age (or even earlier) this was the Storm and Darkness protector of Varzor Kitor, the first human disciple/adoptee of the Only Old One. The Heortling spirit tradition doesn't practice necromancy, but there might be something like it with a focus on undead. The cult later was replaced (and presumably taken over) by the Troll Berserk God.

Zolan Zubar was quite violent, too, so maybe not within your player's requirements. It is possible that he was the personification of  Zorak Zoran's berserking, much like Gadblad the Leadsmith is the personification of Zorak Zoran's fire power (won at the Hill of Gold). His mastery of Death and the Undead doesn't have a subcult. There is a Dara Happan underworld ruler, Deshkorgos (an enemy god acknowledged by the Dara Happans) whose description matches aspects of Zorak Zoran and possibly Nontraya (discussed below).

 

The Necropolis of Esrolia is a bad place to raise undead. The Esrolians have Nontraya as their main demonic foe in the Gods War, despite the waves of Chaos demons that Kimantor (the Only Old One) fights off after his marriage to the Queen of Nochet, before he and his wife's people retreat into the Obsidian Palace. But that was after Nontraya, Lord of the Walking Dead, emerged from the Blackmaw, got fooled by Ernalda's death-like sleep and burial, and got fooled again by Tada burying Eiritha under her hill range.

Some people say that Nontraya is Vivamort, but I don't see any necessity to mix the very specific Sword Story and Wakboth encounter myth of Vivamort with the Hell guardian who broke out of his nether realm when there were more dead folk on the surface than in his own dominion.

Part of the problem in the Gods War was that people died, but then stopped following the westward trail and down to Daka Fal's Halls of Justice. Even though dead, they stuck around, in decomposing bodies, but demanding their shares in food etc. without doing their share in the burdens of life. When Nontraya emerged from his nether realm, he gave those dead ones a purpose, and led them demanding tribute and sacrifice through the lands of the Living. It took the Silver Age heroes like Heort or Vogarth Strongman to send the dead souls off onto the westward path and to restrain the dead bodies to their graves.

There is no indication that Nontraya was required to activate the dead to follow him, but his magic certainly gave (and gives) him sovereignty over animated dead bodies. Animating them in the first place might be some other deity's or sorcerer's work.

 

While Maran and Babeester Gor both are Dark Earth cults with Death association, neither has any sympathy for undead - they (or aspects of them) were among the foes of Nontraya. Neither does Ty Kora Tek appear to be associated with perishable undead, although the cult might have magics to create animated mummies as guardians of cemeteries. The Rakshasa guardian demons associated with Earth Temples will have cousins used for the necropoles, possibly indistinguishable from gargoyles to the casual observer.

Delecti heroquested for his power to animate the fallen of battle (or sacrifice), stealing the ability from a feat or aspect of Zorak Zoran.

 

Magical economy of Necromancy:

From your reaction to the Zorak Zoran rune spell, it looks like you find the cost of the Create Zombie spell acceptable. I would rule that the two rune points activating a zombie remain occupied until the Zombie gets destroyed, unless bound to guard a shrine or temple.

The spell is limited to recently slain (or otherwise deceased) corpses - possibly while the body could still be resurrected? Definitely no grave robbing a battlefield (say the grisly remains encountered by Germanicus when he arrived at the site of the Varus battle eight years later) - that would be a different kind of curse. (And yet different from the cursed undead of the Paths of the Dead in the Lord of the Ring.)

There is no statement about the effect a zombie created from a deceased body may have on the soul's progress in the Court of the Dead - there is a possibility that the former owner's soul is stuck waiting for judgement while his body is shambling about. You should work this detail out for your cult.

 

@simonh's objection to the acceptance of necromancy is correct. If your necromancer animates the corpse of someone with kin nearby, that kin will seek to free the body from its curse and to take revenge on the necromancer. The corpses of distant foes are comparatively safe in this regard. While no Orlanthi feels comfortable around walking dead, they don't protest much of those bodies are recognizable as Praxian raiders, Grazer raiders or notorious outlaws beyond the pale of politically outlawed rebels. Lunar corpses might even be paraded to them (as long as they aren't errant kinsfolk - you never know...).

 

Humakti will react badly to the necromancer, to say the least. Their corpses don't succumb to the Create Zombie rite, either, which makes them destructive without providing replacement corpses. These cultists are pretty omnipresent as bodyguards of Orlanthi nobility or as caravan guards, making it all but impossible for your necromancer's undead pets to operate openly in Orlanthi society.

Your necromancer should study the hospitality laws, because those may be all that stand between him and zealot Humakti attacking him.

 

Daka Fal cultists might be hostile even when no kin of theirs is affected - the ancestor worshippers prefer a clean processing of all dead souls and spirits.

 

Cremated bodies usually aren't eligible for zombiefication, but only somewhat fried ones from impromptu funeral pyres might just offer some resistance to the spell. Properly embalmed and buried corpses (however fresh) may offer the success of the embalming or burial rite as a resistance, too, but they keep much better, too.

[simonh]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

When Nontraya emerged from his nether realm, he gave those dead ones a purpose, and led them demanding tribute and sacrifice through the lands of the Living. It took the Silver Age heroes like Heort or Vogarth Strongman to send the dead souls off onto the westward path and to restrain the dead bodies to their graves.

This reads to me as saying that Nontraya is the divine personification of the emergence of the dead into the surface world, and their intrusion into the affairs of the living. I think it's reasonable Nontraya worship would therefore give the power to make it happen.

To moderate my post earlier about objections to undead from locals, there's the example of Bundalini, the mute giant, and his all-skeleton band from Barbarian Adventures, a Hero Wars supplement. His troup is a popular attraction at fairs, although preparations have to be made to ensure any local Humakti are sent off on some very important mission for the duration of his visit.

 

[David Scott]

On 9/29/2018 at 2:27 PM, Grimmshade said:

How many cults are there in Glorantha?

Lots. 

On 9/29/2018 at 2:27 PM, Grimmshade said:

Enough to justify reskinning a cult (or creating a new one) to fit what a player is looking for? (In this case a Necromantic cult)

It depends on what region and culture you are playing in. One of the main problems we see with home-brew cults is that they get very complicated and end up rivalling the major gods. You cant go wrong making local hero cult with a few rune or sorcery spells. One of my players created a small lunar sorcery school that made skeletons and zombies and killed things. The cult template exists in RQG, just use that as a guide for form and structure. Take care to mould it to the culture, area you are in or it maybe unplayable. Hero cults of Orlanth the reanimator (bring them back to die gloriously again), a Lhankor Mhy necromancy grimoire, would all be fine for me. 

[Grimmshade]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Lots. 

It depends on what region and culture you are playing in. One of the main problems we see with home-brew cults is that they get very complicated and end up rivalling the major gods. You cant go wrong making local hero cult with a few rune or sorcery spells. One of my players created a small lunar sorcery school that made skeletons and zombies and killed things. The cult template exists in RQG, just use that as a guide for form and structure. Take care to mould it to the culture, area you are in or it maybe unplayable. Hero cults of Orlanth the reanimator (bring them back to die gloriously again), a Lhankor Mhy necromancy grimoire, would all be fine for me. 

The templates don't seem to have an equal point spread that I can figure out. Should I not worry about that as long as they don't have more than what's presented?

[David Scott]

3 minutes ago, Grimmshade said:

The templates don't seem to have an equal point spread that I can figure out.

Yes, there is no balance.

3 minutes ago, Grimmshade said:

Should I not worry about that as long as they don't have more than what's presented?

No, just go ahead and have go. I got my player to make up all the details, I tweaked a few minor details so it worked better.

[simonh]

Also, it's the Hero Wars. The old ways are failing and new ways, or old ways with a new twist, will be needed to survive.

[womble]

45 minutes ago, Grimmshade said:

The templates don't seem to have an equal point spread that I can figure out. Should I not worry about that as long as they don't have more than what's presented?

And, for consistency's sake, don't have a local Cult with one Priest and half a Shaman, with 50 Initiates worldwide provide umpteen Special Rune Spells and have a Great Temple in every village... Unless you're prepared to tie it into Your Glorantha's Mythscape as completely and broadly as Orlanth or the Seven Mothers are...  Context, context, context...

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, womble said:

And, for consistency's sake, don't have a local Cult with one Priest and half a Shaman, with 50 Initiates worldwide provide umpteen Special Rune Spells and have a Great Temple in every village... Unless you're prepared to tie it into Your Glorantha's Mythscape as completely and broadly as Orlanth or the Seven Mothers are...  Context, context, context...

Page 284 covers it pretty much on temple size. A local cult can certainly have a minor temple. At a minimum of 150 members you can easily have 3 special rune magics and some common (or all) rune spells. Spread that between a few clans and you are sorted. Orlanth the Reanimator, has a single shrine with one rune spell: Reanimator, 2 points, touch, nonstackable, temporal. Allows a fallen comrade to be brought back on to the battlefield for another go. Acts like heal body for 15 mins, spell removes all injuries. Body dies again after 15min. May be stacked with extension for extra cruelty. 

[styopa]

25 minutes ago, womble said:

And, for consistency's sake, don't have a local Cult with one Priest and half a Shaman, with 50 Initiates worldwide provide umpteen Special Rune Spells and have a Great Temple in every village... Unless you're prepared to tie it into Your Glorantha's Mythscape as completely and broadly as Orlanth or the Seven Mothers are...  Context, context, context...

Which, let's be honest, is asking a crapton of anyone who's just learning the game.

To the other hand, however, I'd submit that while Glorantha's lack of guard rails seems to invite customization, it's in fact fairly touchy about fooling around like this.  One could easily overpower a campaign trying to customize cults without a fair experience of how stuff works in practice.

It's sort of Linux of RPGs...you are welcome to roll your own to personal preference (to mix metaphors) but no guarantees it's going to not-screw-other-stuff-up unless you take a fair amount of time learning what you're doing FIRST.

[David Scott]

56 minutes ago, styopa said:

I disagree. I see making a small local cult no different from me 40 years ago making my own traveller careers, building fantasy towns in the middle of nowhere and playing outrageous plots with no basis in reality. It's a game, make it your own.

56 minutes ago, styopa said:

To the other hand, however, I'd submit that while Glorantha's lack of guard rails seems to invite customization, it's in fact fairly touchy about fooling around like this.  One could easily overpower a campaign trying to customize cults without a fair experience of how stuff works in practice.

That's why local/hero cults are not problematic, you just do your small area. However at 14 I would certainly have written a cult to rule the world. I didn't though as we only had Orlanth and that was enough...

[d(sqrt(-1))]

If you don't mind a bit of plagiarism try stealing Sárku from Tékumel: http://www.tekumel.com/world_gods10.html

On Tekumel he is a major deity and accepted as part of normal life...he can also create zombies and jagji, who are undead that are practically indistinguishable from the living...

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by d(sqrt(-1))
accents!

[goldenwheeldancer]

Humakt is a pretty common choice for player character. If my Humakti character was face to face with a necromancer PC then the necromancer would be dead - table etiquette and hospitality rules be damned!!! Truth is Truth and Death is Death. So having this necromancer among PCs could create opportunities for all sorts of fun crazy stories as the necromancer tries to keep his/her "gifts" secret etc - possibly even using the powers to save those who would find those powers abhorrent. But there is never going to be a situation in which the "warrior" humakti, the "healer" and the necromancer "magic user" go into a Troll "dungeon" together and openly use their powers to mutual benefit. The necromancer PC is the Humakti PC's #1 enemy. Could get interesting!

[PhilHibbs]

12 minutes ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Humakt is a pretty common choice for player character. If my Humakti character was face to face with a necromancer PC then the necromancer would be dead - table etiquette and hospitality rules be damned!!! 

Table etiquette should pre-empt this problem by saying "don't bring a character to the group that is inevitably going to have to kill an existing character". If the group contained an Aldryami, I would not bring a troll or dwarf to the party. If it contained a Cave Troll,  I would not bring an Uroxi. If it contains a necromancer, don't bring a Humakti to the table. And vice versa. Unless the whole group is up for the drama.

Edited October 1, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[styopa]

1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

If you don't mind a bit of plagiarism try stealing Sárku from Tékumel: http://www.tekumel.com/world_gods10.html

On Tekumel he is a major deity and accepted as part of normal life...he can also create zombies and jagji, who are undead that are practically indistinguishable from the living...

 

Why settle for plagiarizing; after all Sandy WROTE *actual* RQ Tekumel rules. 

We in fact use them (somewhat reskinned) for Malkionism.  http://www.tekumel.com/downloads/RQtekumel.pdf 

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Table etiquette should pre-empt this problem by saying "don't bring a character to the group that is inevitably going to have to kill an existing character". If the group contained an Aldryami, I would not bring a troll or dwarf to the party. If it contained a Cave Troll,  I would not bring an Uroxi. If it contains a necromancer, don't bring a Humakti to the table. And vice versa. Unless the whole group is up for the drama.

While I'd agree with you in a strictly canonical Glorantha concept, we've back-rationalized rootless Elfs and broken Dwarfs, I'd imagine it wouldn't take too much rationalizing to figure out a way / reason that they're stuck with each other, and that literally going after each other could be made...unappealing.  

[PhilHibbs]

3 minutes ago, styopa said:

While I'd agree with you in a strictly canonical Glorantha concept, we've back-rationalized rootless Elfs and broken Dwarfs, I'd imagine it wouldn't take too much rationalizing to figure out a way / reason that they're stuck with each other, and that literally going after each other could be made...unappealing.  

Sure, it's all do-able if the group wants to go for it.

You have to be careful with some roleplayers, especially at university games clubs, I've come across some people who took perverse pleasure in bringing in PC-killers, or merely could not be bothered to think past "You're playing an elf? Well, my character will have to kill yours."

Edited October 1, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Grimmshade]

Man, so much great advice and info here from everyone! Thanks all!

As for my play group, they are very well suited to finding reasons for differing characters to work together. They roleplay grumbling differences of opinion, but would never think of attacking each other's characters.

It's looking like it will be:

Necromancer (exact origin undecided yet)

Duck ranger/scout type

Centaur hunter

Sartar Lhankor Mhy initiate

Edited October 1, 2018 by Grimmshade
Added more words

[goldenwheeldancer]

34 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 "You're playing an elf? Well, my character will have to kill yours."

Of course that elf should be killed! That is good roleplaying. The story will have to define the reasons why the Troll Shouldn't kill the Elf.

Edited October 1, 2018 by goldenwheeldancer

[d(sqrt(-1))]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Why settle for plagiarizing; after all Sandy WROTE *actual* RQ Tekumel rules. 

We in fact use them (somewhat reskinned) for Malkionism.  http://www.tekumel.com/downloads/RQtekumel.pdf 

Sure, in fact I have my own expanded version that includes Shamans and other creatures from Gardasiyal and the Tekumel Bestiary. But the Tekumel temples and spells are structured somewhat differently from Glorantha cults

I used to use Sandy's Sorcery Rules and Shaman rules for RQ too.

 

[simonh]

8 hours ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Of course that elf should be killed! That is good roleplaying. The story will have to define the reasons why the Troll Shouldn't kill the Elf.

As long as the player of the troll understands they are just as responsible for the story as everyone else. They can’t just blame ‘the story’ for not coming up with a reason.

“So Dave, Trolls are the natural enemies of Elves but also are symbiotic with them in some ways. They have allied or co-existed with them before in various councils and empires. How come your character has good reason to tolerate or even ally with the Aldryami?”

Much better than imposing reasons by GM fiat.

[soltakss]

On 10/1/2018 at 9:40 PM, PhilHibbs said:

"You're playing an elf? Well, my character will have to kill yours."

Our old RQ2 campaign had some Zorak Zoran Death Lords, a Rune Lord Priest of Aranea (Spider-Troll) and a Aldryami Yelornan RuneLady-Priest. Normally, the Yelornan adventured with Yelmalians and, occasionally, Orlanthi, but very rarely she adventured with the Zorak Zorani. They didn't try to kill her, as she had a Unicorn and wasn;t afraid to use it, also had Power Arrows that would cut through a troll easyily enough. Although they were in hostile/enemy cults, they didn't just attack each other, instead they had common goals and worked together to achieve them, then split up again soon afterwards.