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EricW

Are Lunars God Learners?

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Frankly, just read the texts on the blog and after that, it is not really hard to guess who was the mysterious "lawspeaker" who wrote most of it ūüôā !
And fan policy on Chaosium site indicates people are not authorized to modify tumblr pictures by the way...
 

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The art from jenxrodwell was reblogged, which is tumblr's equivalent of, say, pressing the "share" button on Facebook. It was not stolen/pirated, if that's what people here are implying.

Frankly, it doesn't surprise me much that there's so much art from the Prince of Sartar and jenxrodwell regardless of who ran the blog, since at the time there weren't exactly a huge amount of other, regular, art released of Glorantha (afaik).

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4 hours ago, Oracle said:

Ahem, excuse my ignorance, but in fact I do not. I've never had the honour and pleasure to meet Greg in person, nor did I follow all these educated discussions, that happened in other Internet places several years ago.

So if you would be so kind to elaborate a bit?

It's actually elaborated in the Guide to Glorantha.

See the Guide p.135:  "By 776, the heirs of these wizards, popularly called God Learners, had developed unusual magical methods to look at the world. The secret is dead with its initiates, but was evidently called the RuneQuest Sight. It apparently allowed initiates to see the world as a series of patterns, relationships, and repetitive reflections which could be organized according to the now famous Runes. Their Heroquesters followed the paths of their Runes through the Otherworld, and then shaped the Otherworld by planting those Runes into other parts of it."

 

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52 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The art from jenxrodwell was reblogged, which is tumblr's equivalent of, say, pressing the "share" button on Facebook. It was not stolen/pirated, if that's what people here are implying.

I'm not accusing that account of pirating any content; not at all!   I honestly don't know who owns that account. 

I simply assert that putting such content online isn't the same as being the owner of the content; I don't presume that I know they ARE (or are NOT!) the same.

 

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2 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm not accusing that account of pirating any content; not at all!   I honestly don't know who owns that account. 

I simply assert that putting such content online isn't the same as being the owner of the content; I don't presume that I know they ARE (or are NOT!) the same.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. The tumblr-blog "jenxrodwell" is the official personal blog of Kalin Kadiev, artist at Chaosium, and artist of the Prince of Sartar webcomic. He appears to have put his art up there to promote the webcomic, as well as other drawings of his. I highly doubt Chaosium has a problem with this, for a myriad of reasons.

The tumblr-blog "glorantha" reblogged these back when it was active. Reblogging is an automated process whereby material hosted on one blog is displayed on another as well, like Facebook sharing, Twitter retweeting. It's not actually copying.

Whether they are the same I people behind the blogs I have no clue, but just wanted to clarify for people that none of this constitutes breach of copyright - unless Kalin Kadiev is contractually prohibited to display his own, otherwise publicly available art on his personal/professional art blog, like one does in a DeviantArt gallery, or an online portfolio website - which would seem like a ludicrously draconian contract to me.

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55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. The tumblr-blog "jenxrodwell" is the official personal blog of Kalin Kadiev, artist at Chaosium, and artist of the Prince of Sartar webcomic. 

With the device I am currently using, the owner of "glorantha.tumblr.com" isn't something I see (that may be as simple as me being unfamiliar with this interface).

I'm not "getting at" anything more than the fact that (to me, at least) the owner isn't self-evident.

There is certainly both text & art, and deep lore!  Is all content by the same  creator?  Is it the (c)-owner (who would, it appears, have to be a Chaosium/ MoonDesign/ Isaries entity)?  Or just a really avid fan (for whom Chaosium chooses not to issue a takedown)?

No idea.  I cannot tell.

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17 hours ago, EricW said:

There is at least one being who knows the God Learners secret in the Third Age - Ralzakark (assuming he is still cannon).

No-one dares remove Ralzakark from Gloranthan canon, you don't know what his reaction would be!

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On 1/14/2019 at 4:15 AM, EricW said:

Are Lunars God Learners?

No.

God Learners were a Malkioni religious movement that strove to examine every Malkioni belief and compare it to the Abiding Book, striking away beliefs that did not conform with the Abiding Book. They moved on to comparing the gods and goddesses, again striking away those found wanting. The God Learners passed with the ending of the Middle Sea Empire.

 

On 1/14/2019 at 4:15 AM, EricW said:

Are Lunars God Learners?

Yes.

Although they use new techniques, the Lunars have inherited some techniques from the God Learners and have reawakened more. They amend myths and blend in the Red Goddess into other myths, making it appear that She has always been there, or is an incarnation of some belief. In the same way, the Red Emperor has proven to be, or wield, ancient powers, through HeroQuesting. He is the Dara Happan Emperor, the Paradisaical Aviator (??? Can't remember the exact term) and others.

In my Glorantha, the Red Goddess is the Third Side of the Law Rune, with Malkion forming the base, Hrestol forming the right hand side and supporting the Red Goddess who forms the Left Hand Side. She is the Third Prophet of the Invisible God and has blended Malkioni Sorcery in with Lunar ideals. (OK, now the Red Goddess doesn't allow worshippers to manipulate Spirit Magic, but the statement still holds in my Glorantha).

Her followers are very active HeroQuestors. She was an active HeroQuestor who wove herself into the fabric of Time and God Time, far more successfully than the God Learners ever did. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Kloster said:

Thanks for the explanation. Where does it comes from?

It was originally in Wyrms Footnotes, but I can't remember which edition.

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18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Orlanthi all claim "foul" and "break of Compromise", but when and how exactly did that happen?

The classic answer, of course, is at castle Blue and when the Lunars killed Orlanth. Both cause the heroes and Gods to be active in Glorantha again.

Of course, the Red Goddess proved her right to exist at Castle Blue and showed that the Compromise was not broken, merely amended. 

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On 1/13/2019 at 11:15 PM, EricW said:

The Lunars tamper with myths and bend the rules. ... somehow seem to tinker with myths on a scale comparable to God Learners
What protects imperial sorcerers from the Doom Guardians? 

I don't really see it as tampering, more like reinterpreting.

That said, in King of Sartar nothing protects the red moon from the dragons that tear it apart except maybe the moon's own powers of rebirth.

16 hours ago, g33k said:

who IS "glorantha.tumblr.com" ???

Down With People according to https://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/the-lore-of-glorantha/.

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Guide p.135:  "By 776, the heirs of these wizards, popularly called God Learners, had developed unusual magical methods to look at the world. The secret is dead with its initiates, but was evidently called the RuneQuest Sight. It apparently allowed initiates to see the world as a series of patterns, relationships, and repetitive reflections which could be organized according to the now famous Runes. Their Heroquesters followed the paths of their Runes through the Otherworld, and then shaped the Otherworld by planting those Runes into other parts of it."

I recently stumbled across the classic Compleat Enchanter books and have to imagine they were an inspiration.   "... parallel world tales in which [universes] based on the mythologies, legends, and literary fantasies of our world [can] be reached by aligning one's mind to them by a system of symbolic logic. [The main characters] travel to several such worlds ..." (wikipedia)

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48 minutes ago, Roko Joko said:

That said, in King of Sartar nothing protects the red moon from the dragons that tear it apart except maybe the moon's own powers of rebirth.

The Red Emperor commits utuma to negate the sins of the Empire and the Red Moon gets torn apart by Dragons. Either the Red Emperor fumbled his roll, or the breaking up of the Red Moon was a natural consequence of his actions, allowing the Moon to change form into its next state. 

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Of course, the Red Goddess proved her right to exist at Castle Blue and showed that the Compromise was not broken, merely amended. 

Well, that's what a Lunar would say. I imagine plenty of others have different views on that tussle.

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On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

Yes, the Closing was a very powerful magical effect that did stop almost every form of contact or communication. Middle Sea Empire p.27 has the timeline for the breakdown of communication between Jrustela and Seshnela. There are no Malazan-Book of the Fallen style Hero Plane or Spirit Plane roads between the continents that allow to enter in one continent and leave in the other. What there are are Heroplane roads that lead into the mythic equivalent of the other continent (or the Spike in between) in Godtime, but you re-emerge where you enter. The best half way offer is the Fish Road from Deepest to Magasta's Pool, but I don't think that there is any way to cross the rifts of the broken Earth Cube that way.

You also forget that Mastakos is worshiped as part of the Sea Pantheon.  Guided Teleport solved the problem handily.  You will also find that there are Magasta Worshipers on many coasts of Glorantha, and their temples contain shrines to Mastakos who is his son.  That seems pretty straightforwards.  I also strongly doubt that the Hero Plane experiences the notion of continental divides in quite the same way that the waking world does.  Many of the same deities are worshiped on both continents and create Hero Plane connections that transcend mere physical barriers.   Those pathways were frequently created by the God Learners in their experiments.  Also, you don't always re-emerge where you enter, that is simply untrue, look at Ethilrist's Journey to Hell for example.  I would go so far as to say it isn't even all that common to do so, and nor does it need to be.

On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

Actually, at the Battle of Night and Day, Daysenerus broke the rules. Osentalka was born during the Sunstop, a period outside of Time, a break in the compromise in itself but not caused by the birth of the (as it turned out, not so) Perfect One. Zistor manifesting full divine powers was a clear break of the Marquess of Queensbury rules of summoning divine presence (which was not broken by Tanian's Victory...). The rise of the Red Moon in 1247 was blatant and universally witnessed, but not the moment which would be blamed. The rebirth of Teelo as Teelo Estara was not a break of the Compromise, and her subsequent demigod existence wasn't, either. Her return on the back of the Crimson Bat at the First Battle of Chaos clearly brought Chaos into the world, which may be seen as a break of the Compromise, but then some of the Praxian practices involving the native Chaos horrors of the Wastes or the Devil's Marsh are about as dubious.

Viewing the Sun Stop as being an event outside of time is an interesting and plausible spin on the event.  On the other hand, there are ways of tracking the passage of time that have nothing to do with the path of the Sun.  For example, did hourglasses cease to function during the Sun Stop?  Did the living things of the world cease to age and die?  Clearly time did not stop.  As to the RMG, she allegedly existed before time, but really she is just a re-emergence of the same chaos horrors we see every 600 years so that; her tolerance of chaos speak against her eloquently, plus we know that she and her decadent pantheon of chaos worshiping prostitutes will lose.

On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

The Lunar divinely ascended humans face the destruction of their Otherworld abode, or rather the problem of following it through its further ascendance which does result in some red glowing rock dropping back onto the Earth.

I am sure that true believers said something similar about Jonestown and Waco.  Admit that they were just the lastest crop of idiots who followed Gbaji into chaos worship and a futile annihilation on the usual 600 year cycle.

On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

The Luatha aren't the Gift Bringers, but they are a fairly potent lot of demigods, and one that Harrek did not overcome when he sailed down from Ygg's Isles as Ygg's champion. The Vingkotling magic used for the assault on Luathela in the course of the Lightbringers' Quest doesn't seem to work on the Seshnelan contingent. This is one of the most famous quests in Glorantha, and surely was studied by the God Learners (if only to learn about Arkat's and Talor's returns from Hell).

Why raise the Luatha at all?  All those areas of Genertela were part of the Jrusteli Empire and open to God Learner exploitation.  To suggest that there were was no-one with the Rune Quest Sight who was on a break between God Learner Hero Quests in Seshnela, Maniria, Fronela or Ralios before the Closing, seems  immensely unlikely, given that often such operations took years to organize.  If the Gift Bringers didn't reach those areas, then the God Learners would persist in those areas, and would have such power that they could break the closing and reassert their entire empire rapidly, unless there was a force that had the wherewithall to stop them.  The remnants of the EWF and the True Golden Horde weren't in the area in force, and the Arkati were on their last legs.  Basically, unless the Gift Bringers can't get to Genertela, then the God Learners are still operating there; each hero band with enough power to give Harrek ar run for his money.  That is a force that can conquer a whole continent, but is left unaccounted for. The alternative is that the Gift Bringers could get to Genertela because they were operating as agents of the Compromise and had access to divine help that goes beyond what is usual, even for Hero Questers.  I personally think that the Gift Bringers are a bit too deus ex machina, but there is no other way of accounting for the complete vanishing of the Rune Quest Sight from Genertela.

On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

On the surface of the water, flying, or below the surface. The only entities who can cross the ocean below the water are the merfolk and their demigods and deities, and they have to handle the Doom Currents on the way. (As do ships and other water surface travel methods). Flying used to be feasible in the early phase of the Closing, but the magic adapted, and the few long range flyers suffered more and more attrition (940-962 ST), with the final flier a passive passenger probably selected for some magical affinity to being floated and pushed across that magic in 998 ST.

This is all about how the Gift Bringers got to Genertela.  So why not teleport?  Mastakos shrines are present at all temples of Magasta and Orlanth. One may also traverse the world via the Underworld or the Sky Dome. A less obvious path could be to reincarnate in Genertela with one's memories intact. Building a submersible and magically disguising it as a sea monster is another somewhat humorous option.  A better option might be to create a ghost ship.  The crucial thing is, I doubt that the sea deities would in any way oppose the passage of the Gift Bringers, given that their mission was to destroy the God Learners root and bough, which was what the Closing was attempting to do anyhow.  Is it so implausible that the operation was a co-ordinated strike by allied forces?  I would suggest that is the only plausible answer that accounts for Gloranthan history following the trajectory it did.

On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

And we can prove a negative how?

Easily.  Heroes of that age and stature tend to leave a large footprint on historical events wherever they go. They can't help it.  If they used to exist, but now there aren't any, then what does that tell us? The notable exception is probably Delecti, who was no longer human, and hidden underground during the Dragon Kill.  Some people say that Sir Ethilrist is a God Learner, but that seems a bit implausible, and is more likely just xenophobia.

On 1/15/2019 at 5:13 AM, Joerg said:

Yawn. No way in or outside of Hell. Praxians have a taboo for horses, even for flogging dead ones.

So... you will argue FOR Gift Bringers in Genertela when it suits your purpose and AGAINST the same just for the sake of being perverse.  Good one Joerg.  You do realize that contradicting yourself doesn't mean you're enlightened, it just means you're wrong, and a poor sport to boot.  Condemned by your own words.

Edited by Darius West

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

You also forget that Mastakos is worshiped as part of the Sea Pantheon.  Guided Teleport solved the problem handily. 

Guided Teleport is great -  it returns you to the temple where you sacrificed for the spell from anywhere in the Middle World.

How does that get you across the ocean?

Besides, these are spells that were part and parcel of the Jrusteli-trained heroquesters' arsenal. Don't you think that the people who designed the cult of Worlath and inflicted it on Umathelan tribes didn't have this knowledge?

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

You will also find that there are Magasta Worshipers on many coasts of Glorantha, and their temples contain shrines to Mastakos who is his son.  That seems pretty straightforwards. 

Magasta appears to be one of the guardians or even patrons of the Closing. Going to his temple to sidestep that sounds like something only Illuminates and God Learners would consider.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I also strongly doubt that the Hero Plane experiences the notion of continental divides in quite the same way that the waking world does. 

The notion not just of continental divides but complete rifts through the cube (or lozenge) is anchored in the myth of the Breaking of the World.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Many of the same deities are worshiped on both continents and create Hero Plane connections that transcend mere physical barriers. 

All true, but won't let you depart from a myth on a location other than where you entered it unless it is explicitely a heroquest road.

Like I said, as fun and playable as such roads would be in a high level Gloranthan game, someone would have to establish them in the Hero Wars. The God Learners did not have them, or the separation between Jrustela and Seshnela would have been a non-issue.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

 Those pathways were frequently created by the God Learners in their experiments.  Also, you don't always re-emerge where you enter, that is simply untrue, look at Ethilrist's Journey to Hell for example.  I would go so far as to say it isn't even all that common to do so, and nor does it need to be.

Entering Hell and emerging elsewhere - usually years later - has a number of precedents (like entering at the Gates of Dusk and emerging at the Gates of Dawn). Harmast for instance used the rescuees of his LBQs as the homing point for his return to the world.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Viewing the Sun Stop as being an event outside of time is an interesting and plausible spin on the event.  On the other hand, there are ways of tracking the passage of time that have nothing to do with the path of the Sun. 

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

For example, did hourglasses cease to function during the Sun Stop? 

They all ran out of sand. Their caretakers were distracted by the stuff happening in the Sky. And a lot of other phenomena stopped in their tracks in awe and/or terror of the events unfolding.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Did the living things of the world cease to age and die? 

Yes, at least on the mortal end. I have no reports of generations going about their business of procreation and death under the neverending glare or blessing of the sun.

We do know of a pregnancy that came to term during the Sunstop: Arkat's birth. But he was born as an infant, not as a young adult (or even an old man like Väinämöinen).

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Clearly time did not stop. 

The agricultural year continued mostly without big hiccups. No harvests were brought in prematurely, no herds had multiplied.

People were held on the brink between life and death, making sustenance and defecation a non-concern. (Unless you were a Trickster or unlucky enough to start your No 2 business as the sun stopped in its tracks... which basically would have turned you into a Trickster with an epic feat.)

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to the RMG, she allegedly existed before time, but really she is just a re-emergence of the same chaos horrors we see every 600 years so that; her tolerance of chaos speak against her eloquently, plus we know that she and her decadent pantheon of chaos worshiping prostitutes will lose.

Thanks for this unbiased and completely objective treatment of the issue, one that all parties in Glorantha would happily subscribe to.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am sure that true believers said something similar about Jonestown and Waco.  Admit that they were just the lastest crop of idiots who followed Gbaji into chaos worship and a futile annihilation on the usual 600 year cycle.

Which of the End of Second Age cataclysms marks that cycle? The 1049-1051 land shakings/sinkings starting in Seshnela and ending in Kralorela did not end the God Learner-spawned False Dragon Emperors there. The Dragonkill followed with a 70 year delay. The Machine War ended 130 years earlier than that date - longer than the Bright Empire lasted (only 75 years). The Birth of the Red Goddess in 1220 correlates with the rise of the Tharkantus cult in the Second Age, and little else.

In their mythic reality, they were the select few that reacted correctly on the end of days, leaving the pitiful unbelievers who had hastened this ascension to linger in a world where B-rated actors and buffoonly real-estate swindlers would become leader of the land with the most powerful military.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why raise the Luatha at all?  All those areas of Genertela were part of the Jrusteli Empire and open to God Learner exploitation. 

Peloria explicitely wasn't, protected by the Carmanian emigrants from Akem on the western front, by the re-awakened Ralzakark in Dorastor and by the EWF across Dragon Pass. The Kingdom of Night was able to play EWF and Slontans against one another, and while they did appear to suffer from the Goddess Switch (as did Slontos itself), they had kept the Zistorites in check long before any other major GL project faltered.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

To suggest that there were was no-one with the Rune Quest Sight who was on a break between God Learner Hero Quests in Seshnela, Maniria, Fronela or Ralios before the Closing, seems  immensely unlikely, given that often such operations took years to organize. 

Please state a canonical source that states that the Gift Bringers targeted the RuneQuest Sight.

To quote from the Guide (p.138):

Quote

Another  terrible  secret  was  avenged  by  doom  guardians  calling  themselves  the  Gift  Carriers of the Sending Gods. Everyone who  was privy to the Forbidden Secret, or who was  kin  to  them,  or  who  might  have  witnessed  or heard about the secret, was hunted down  and destroyed. So successful was their effort  that no modern Gloranthan even knows what  secret they extinguished. 

We do know about the RuneQuest Sight. Which tells me quite clearly that this wasn't the secret targeted by the Gift Carriers.

They might have become active on the demise of Zistor, which predates the Closing by at least a decade wherever it matters. In that case, a lot of terrible God Learner stuff is not what was targeted by these doom guardians.

In short - the Gift Carriers did end one specific branch of God Learner Knowledge, and apparently they did so while the Middle Sea Empire still was at large.

The Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods never hunted down the last God Learners.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

If the Gift Bringers didn't reach those areas, then the God Learners would persist in those areas, and would have such power that they could break the closing and reassert their entire empire rapidly, unless there was a force that had the wherewithall to stop them.  The remnants of the EWF and the True Golden Horde weren't in the area in force, and the Arkati were on their last legs.  Basically, unless the Gift Bringers can't get to Genertela, then the God Learners are still operating there; each hero band with enough power to give Harrek ar run for his money.  That is a force that can conquer a whole continent, but is left unaccounted for. The alternative is that the Gift Bringers could get to Genertela because they were operating as agents of the Compromise and had access to divine help that goes beyond what is usual, even for Hero Questers.  I personally think that the Gift Bringers are a bit too deus ex machina, but there is no other way of accounting for the complete vanishing of the Rune Quest Sight from Genertela.

The Gift Bringers are not the same as the Mass Utuma of 1042 which ended the presence of Dragonspeakers (of any significant level) in Glorantha. A number of major actions changed the ways magic worked, probably starting with Zzabur's Closing, and certainly involving the Luatha rite ramming that spike into Seshnelan earth. Quite likely Godunya contributed to that, too.

Magic which relied on the RuneQuest Sight failed. Much like all Orlanth magic failed in the Wind Stop, but then the actors were a much higher calibre than an upstart Yelmite Chaos worshipper with only part of one empire's magical resources at his hands.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is all about how the Gift Bringers got to Genertela. 

Consider this: by ship, before the Closing entered the Homeward Ocean. The Gift Carriers did not target all God Learners. And the secret they targeted is forgotten.

This renders the rest of your argument quite futile. Your basic premise, that the RuneQuest Sight has anything to do with the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods, is basically untenable.

There is a good chance that the dire secret targeted was mostly restricted to one of the Umathelan universities, with only a few initiated people elsewhere. Another chance is a connection to the Six Legged Empire, which was destroyed just the year after the False Gods experiment in Umathela faltered (another good candidate for use of this secret).

Why don't we know anything about Jogrampur but his name?

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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Viewing the Sun Stop as being an event outside of time is an interesting and plausible spin on the event. 

My view is that the Sun Stop broke the Compromise, or snapped bits of it.

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1 minute ago, Joerg said:

Guided Teleport is great -  it returns you to the temple where you sacrificed for the spell from anywhere in the Middle World.

How does that get you across the ocean?

Spell trading or sorcerous teleport.

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1 minute ago, soltakss said:

My view is that the Sun Stop broke the Compromise, or snapped bits of it.

Sure. And it was the result of Fronelan wizards summoning something big against the shaman alliance they faced, and of Emperor Yanoor meditating on a vexing problem, and numerous other actors outside of Dorastor.

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2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods¬†never hunted down the last God Learners.ÔĽŅ

I don't think that is big enough!

As the actress said to the Bishop ...

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1 minute ago, soltakss said:

I don't think that is big enough!

As the actress said to the Bishop ...

I was being modest.

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22 hours ago, Joerg said:

So successful was their effort¬† that no modern Gloranthan even knows what¬† secret they extinguished.¬†ÔĽŅ

 

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

We do know about the RuneQuest Sight.

Not sure how relevant this is, but I just wanted to point out that we, the players and readers, are not Gloranthan.

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On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Guided Teleport is great -  it returns you to the temple where you sacrificed for the spell from anywhere in the Middle World.  How does that get you across the ocean?

If you have a Guided teleport that takes you across the ocean, it is easy.  On the other hand, the chariot of Mastakos is perfectly able to take people across oceans on Lightbringer Hero Quests, so why not just go south instead of west?

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Besides, these are spells that were part and parcel of the Jrusteli-trained heroquesters' arsenal. Don't you think that the people who designed the cult of Worlath and inflicted it on Umathelan tribes didn't have this knowledge?

The Jrusteli routinely hired people from outside their culture and trained them.  All you need is a non-Jrusteli who decided to learn the secrets and use them against the Jrusteli like Herman did against the Romans at Teutorburg Forest.  It is far from unthinkable.

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Magasta appears to be one of the guardians or even patrons of the Closing. Going to his temple to sidestep that sounds like something only Illuminates and God Learners would consider.

There are actually plenty of humans who worship Magasta too, and temples on many coastlines of the world.  Each of those temples has a shrine to Mastakos that allows the use of those crucial teleport spells.  I can't see why Magasta or the Mer-folk would be anything other than pleased to have the Gift Bringers chase those with the Rune Quest Sight across the oceans wherever they needed to go so they never had to put up with God Learners again.  It just makes sense.

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

The notion not just of continental divides but complete rifts through the cube (or lozenge) is anchored in the myth of the Breaking of the World.

But it doesn't affect the oceans that provide the continuum between the landmasses.  That is a landlubber's mindset.  All seagoing folk know that the ocean is a highway to the whole world.

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

All true, but won't let you depart from a myth on a location other than where you entered it unless it is explicitly a heroquest road.

There are HQ roads going almost everywhere, as the gods have been pretty much everywhere.  Just steal the info from the Jrusteli, or buy it through a third party prior to the commencement of the operation.  We know for example that the Agimori of Prax have a path, so why wouldn't their relatives in Pamaltela?

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Yes, at least on the mortal end. I have no reports of generations going about their business of procreation and death under the neverending glare or blessing of the sun.  We do know of a pregnancy that came to term during the Sunstop: Arkat's birth. But he was born as an infant, not as a young adult (or even an old man like Väinämöinen).The agricultural year continued mostly without big hiccups. No harvests were brought in prematurely, no herds had multiplied.

Say, wasn't the Sunstop during the Battle of Day and Night?  So, there was a huge battle going on and no-one died?  I find that unlikely, given that one side clearly won, and the other clearly lost.  As to how someone gives birth to a young adult, well, that would likely require an egg rather than some sort of mammalian birth process. The fact that there was no need for a harvest suggests that the Sunstop wouldn't have lasted a full Season in "real time".

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

People were held on the brink between life and death, making sustenance and defecation a non-concern. (Unless you were a Trickster or unlucky enough to start your No 2 business as the sun stopped in its tracks... which basically would have turned you into a Trickster with an epic feat.)

But you can't exactly win the Battle of Day and Night if nobody actually dies though, trickster superheroes aside LOL.

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Entering Hell and emerging elsewhere - usually years later - has a number of precedents (like entering at the Gates of Dusk and emerging at the Gates of Dawn). Harmast for instance used the rescuees of his LBQs as the homing point for his return to the world.

But Ethilrist didn't use a homing point at all, and came back centuries later.  This doesn't really matter, as who knows what sort of exploits of the system that the Jrusteli developed, and could potentially be obtained by their enemies acting covertly.  Or better yet, before the ocean gets closed the mer-men simply get an approrpiate number of Gift Bringers where they need to go using the Jrusteli's own transport network through the novel process of "buying a ticket", thus totally avoiding the closing.  Then there is the straight up option of divine intervention, after all the Gift Bringers were a total Deus Ex Machina, so why wouldn't the gods be directly involved, given that Zistor broke the Compromise and the gloves come off about then.

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Thanks for this unbiased and completely objective treatment of the issue, one that all parties in Glorantha would happily subscribe to.

What is it about Dara Happans that repeatedly makes them degenerate into chaos worship?  There is something very toxic at work in their culture.  Illumination sure as hell isn't wisdom (or compassion). In fact illumination's really just a license to riot, until the party's over and it all ends in tears... again...and again...

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

In their mythic reality, they were the select few that reacted correctly on the end of days, leaving the pitiful unbelievers who had hastened this ascension to linger in a world where B-rated actors and buffoonly real-estate swindlers would become leader of the land with the most powerful military.

Buffoonly?  That isn't a word.  And I bet the bulk of the people who died would have much preferred to have lived if given the option.  Instead they followed insane cult leaders to their doom.

On 1/17/2019 at 3:32 AM, Joerg said:

Please state a canonical source that states that the Gift Bringers targeted the RuneQuest Sight.

http://glorantha.tumblr.com/post/96499741818/where-did-the-god-learners-come-from-when-and

Check paragraph 7.  There are others.  And it makes perfect sense when taken in the context of your quote too.  The Forbidden Secret is the RuneQuest Sight Q.E.D.  It is the RuneQuest Sight that defines who is and who is not a God Learner, and it is known to have disappeared with the Jrusteli and their empire.  As to whether it was the Gift Bringers or some other divine agents who ultimately detected and wiped out the God Learners, as far as I am concerned, I don't really care, because whatever you call them, the outcome was the same. i.e.  No more people with RuneQuest Sight (except Delecti who was hidden behind the Line of Death and protected by the Dragons for their own perverse reasons).  So maybe the Gift Bringers of Pamaltela weren't the ones responsible for the annihilation of the God Learners, but it is eminently likely that they weren't only found in Pamaltela and may have gone by other names elsewhere, but the motive, methods and outcomes were the same, so why all the

HYSTERICS IN CAPITALS?

Edited by Darius West

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

As to how someone gives birth to a young adult, well, that would likely require an egg rather than some sort of mammalian birth process.

This is my top Glorantha fandom sentence YTD. Love it. 

Every young adult by definition is born again, we call the egg initiation. Arkat, for example, is born multiple times.

MASTAKOS. The notion of spelltrading to create a point-to-point Guided Teleportation network is extremely tempting provided that the commodity (ENC <= SIZ) or information is valuable enough to justify what could easily become an 8 POW round trip cost. Since 8 POW buys me 56 words or 8 steganographic emblems of Divination, it's only economic for world-class luxury products (spice and other drugs), massive information dumps, detailed instantaneous messaging, redundant backup in case one or more nodes goes down permanently.

Since the system relies on spelltrading Ashara probably supported it back in the day without having to go through the Storm Voices to do it. Imperial Mastakos was probably as important as he seems to be in the Gods of Glorantha write-up, a separate and important cult back then that now only really survives as a cryptic vestige of Orlanth. They probably ran a lot of it on Truestone chips that are harder to find these days.

My guess is that at some point one of the Forbidden Secrets got into the network and reprisals ended up blowing the whole thing, all the sites and the skulls unlucky enough to be close to the mystery. We don't do it any more because we can't. Maybe some day we'll be able to do it again. It's the Hero Wars.

Imperial Mastakos probably incorporated sea and point-to-point power in ways lost now that the mysteries that survive within Magasta and Orlanth have gotten estranged and most people only approach the Charioteer through one (but not both) of his bosses. I don't think Magasta gets the teleportations because he doesn't need them as much. See also: Heler.

Edited by scott-martin
magasta gets protean instead
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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

...

Say, wasn't the Sunstop during the Battle of Day and Night? ...

Not according to the Guide to Glorantha, p.131:

Quote

375    Worldwide: The Sun stops in the sky. Yelm is eclipsed. Time is broken.
           Osentalka is born, immediately renamed Nysalor, the Bright One.
379     Theyalans, Pelorians: Dragon Pass conquered by High Council of Genertela at the Battle of Night and Day.
            ...

 

 

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Buffoonly?  That isn't a word. 

It is now!

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to how someone gives birth to a young adult, well, that would likely require an egg rather than some sort of mammalian birth process. The fact that there was no need for a harvest suggests that the Sunstop wouldn't have lasted a full Season in "real time".

My impression was that the Sunstop lasted for an indefinite amount of time, as time also stopped. Arkat was raised by Elves, but I am of the opinion that he was not a baby when the Elves took him, instead he was partly grown. However, I have no evidence to back that up, as it is just my opinion.

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